[Warlock] Tier4 2-Piece Bonus

dedmonwakeen · 08/13/07, 11:53 AM

Searching posts here, wowhead, and thottbot give me so much conflicting information..... and the stuff that doesn't conflict is incomplete.

I'm trying to accurately model the Warlock Tier4 2pc bonus.

(1) What proc's it?
(2) What is the proc chance?
(3) Is their a hidden cooldown or can it refresh?

Regarding #1:
- I was told DDs and DoTs proc this..... but looking at some Illhoof fight parses it appears that SoC does not proc?
- The language states "..shadow damage spells..." and not "harmful spells" (like SS Infusion) so does this mean CoS does not proc it?

Regarding #2:
- I see people swearing up and down it is 10% and I see others claiming 5%...... Frustrating.

Regarding #3:
- People seem to agree that there is no internal cooldown and it can refresh.

Crepe · 08/13/07, 12:04 PM

SoC's initial application is the only part that counts as a spellhit (and hence can proc the T4 bonus). The explosions don't count. In a similar vein, none of the ticks of Hellfire or Rain of Fire proc the bonus as well.

I would agree with the lack of an internal cooldown.

I'm curious of your results, as it's hard to decide when to break the T4 bonus for T5 pieces. The question of "upgrade" entirely depends on how much the T4 bonus really is worth it in DPS.

dedmonwakeen · 08/13/07, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Crepe

SoC's initial application is the only part that counts as a spellhit (and hence can proc the T4 bonus). The explosions don't count. In a similar vein, none of the ticks of Hellfire or Rain of Fire proc the bonus as well.

I suppose my Warlock friend was just unlucky..... but it didn't proc at all during his Illhoof fight.

I'm curious of your results, as it's hard to decide when to break the T4 bonus for T5 pieces. The question of "upgrade" entirely depends on how much the T4 bonus really is worth it in DPS.

Right now, it appears "too" good which is why I distrust the listed 10% proc chance shown on wowhead.

• Curved · 08/13/07, 12:24 PM

Pretty sure it doesn't proc of CoS/E. And from a quick sample of 3-4 WWS's, i see it around a 5% proc rate.

Crepe · 08/13/07, 12:39 PM

Yeah, I'm going through my WWS parses and the highest proc chance I'm seeing is 6% proc/cast. This isn't counting applications of CoS/CoE (which I'm usually on and sometimes refresh early to keep my Darkmoon card buff up), so I'm going to say that it isn't 10%.

I'm also tracking the proc/time chance, which seems to vary more, supporting the idea of an internal cooldown. Unfortunately, my data set is small. I'll post it once I finish collating the data.

Crepe · 08/13/07, 12:48 PM

Here's my data from WWS. Sadly, I don't have much more as I just upgraded to T5 shoulders and lost the bonus (we also lost a few WWS logs in the meantime).

Len is the length of the fight in minutes, as measured by WWS DPS time (I know it's not perfect, but it's a good measure of the time I spend casting rather than running away from stuff).
Hit is the number of spells that hit (resists don't matter for procing the bonus).
Shadowflame/flameshadow are the number of times each proced. Total is the combined number of procs.
Proc% is the number of procs divided by the number of hits. PPM is the number of procs divided by the length of the fight.

len         hit         shadowflame flameshadow total       %proc       ppm
9           177         0           5           5           0.03        0.56
8           136         1           4           5           0.04        0.63
6           122         2           5           7           0.06        1.17
5           103         0           3           3           0.03        0.6
8           164         2           8           10          0.06        1.25
6           114         0           3           3           0.03        0.5
14          216         0           6           6           0.03        0.43
9           153         0           9           9           0.06        1
6           116         0           5           5           0.04        0.83

EDIT: I've excluded Tidewalker and Hydross specifically because we use AoE those fights and it's practically impossible to tell how many SoC's were cast by just looking at a WWS parse.

dedmonwakeen · 08/13/07, 12:58 PM

Thanks for the detailed parses. I really appreciate it.

I've changed the simulator to use a 5% proc chance and limit the proc to spells that do actual damage (as opposed to just a debuff).

Thanks!

Silmeria · 08/13/07, 1:19 PM

Really interested to see what the new rating comes out at. Are you going to be updating the trinket lists to reflect the change in its equivalent spell power rating?

dedmonwakeen · 08/13/07, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Silmeria

Really interested to see what the new rating comes out at. Are you going to be updating the trinket lists to reflect the change in its equivalent spell power rating?

Yes..... but it will take a while. I've changed the way cast_time, latency, and GCD interact:

Before:
player_ready = current_time + MAX( cast_time + latency, GCD )

New:
player_ready = current_time + MAX( cast_time, GCD ) + latency

This requires me to re-run ALL of my simulations. Provided my laptop doesn't burn a hole through my desk it will complete in about 40hrs. (Simulating a quarter of a billion 10 minute fights takes a little while.)

My best guess: The Warlock T4-2PC bonus should end up around 30 +dmg.....

Kyth · 08/13/07, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Crepe

I'm also tracking the proc/time chance, which seems to vary more, supporting the idea of an internal cooldown. Unfortunately, my data set is small. I'll post it once I finish collating the data.

There's no cooldown, I've had it proc on top of itself plenty of times (just refreshes the buff duration, doesn't stack.)

tetracycloide · 08/13/07, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

My best guess: The Warlock T4-2PC bonus should end up around 30 +dmg.....

Just for reference the other simulators I have seen here for the T4-2pc bonus rate it at about half that for an affliciton spec lock, around 15-17 +dmg. The really sad part is that you can never use the fire portion of the buff since it's shorter than immolate and I don't think it's worth it to change your cast rotation to put immolate up early and loose a tick just for the extra proc damage.

I raided with the helm and gloves for a good while and saw significant DPS gains moving to spellstrike and handwraps of flowing thought, not really suprising I don't think.

I've run the numbers on which two pieces of T4 would be worth using over the best piece of BoP tailoring gear or other drops in the same gear level in an afffliction spec. Before magtheridon with T4 chest tokens the best combo is T4 shoulders (actually a very small upgrade over FSW) and the helm (a significant downgrade from spellstrike). I'm willing to bet that a simulation will show that breaking the spellstrike bonus isn't worth gaining the T4 two piece bonus. The next best option pre magtheridon is to use the T4 gloves over handwraps of flowing thought and my gut tells me that handwraps as so good at this gear level that the T4 bonus will just about make this change break even.

Now, if you include magtheridon's tokens then T4 shoulders + T4 chest with the set bonus factored in is almost certainly a DPS upgrade for an affliction lock (depends on the true value of the proc) and hands down a DPS upgrade for a destruction lock (probably better just on straight up stats without even counting the proc).

I'd just as soon stick with the BoP tailoring shoulders and chest and pass on the tokens so other classes can pick up their sets though since they don't get crafted epics.

Silverstorm · 08/13/07, 3:19 PM

I've continually passed on T4 tokens (unless no one else needs them AT ALL) because I can't see how this bonus would improve over FSW and Spellstrike. Not to mention the +dmg on these pieces is considerably higher than that of T4.

All that said, I would be extremely interested to see the results of this simulator, and also one for Spellstrike. I currently have only the helm, and the Trial Fire Trousers from Opera as my pants (3x +9 dmg, +35 dmg thread). Should I get Spellstrike pants crafted and gemmed/enchanted? Offhand, I can't remember the stat differences, though I know I can use the +hit on Spellstrike Pants.

tetracycloide · 08/13/07, 3:32 PM

It can't improve over spellstrike set bonus or spell strike stats but T4 shoulders are actually an upgrade over FSW shoulders (a very very very small one) just on stats even with lower spell damage. Even though they don't help your DoTs as much as they help shadowbolt +hit, +crit, and +int are still DPS stats that have a value and the stats on T4 shoulders just add up to a little more overall DPS than FSW shoulders. The same goes for T4 robe in a destruction build.

Spellstrike pants would be an upgrade over trial fire in an affliction build even if you didn't get the set bonus. I think this is even more true for a destruction build.

Silverstorm · 08/13/07, 3:42 PM

OK, I think I'll be looking for a Spellstrike pants crafter tonight then.

T4 shoulders vs. FSW shoulders...I might need the stats upgrade after switching to Spellstrike Pants just to maintain stam/int levels. Though in a boss fight, I can usually deal enough damage to recover health equal to a lifetap or two. The hit rating in particular makes up for the lack of spell damage, especially since I'm only at 140 hit rating, and I'd really like to lose the last few points in Suppression.

WTB High King kill with warlock token drop!

Silmeria · 08/13/07, 3:44 PM

I actually had a chance at the T5 shoulders and nabbed those quickly to replace my FSW shoulders. I've been wanting to play with the two-piece T4 bonus, and was intending on using the classic shoulders/chest combo as my experiment, but loot didn't pan out for me, and the T5 shoulders are just great itemization over FSW, point for point.

Now I've waited for everyone in my token group to grab their T4 chest, so I'll be grabbing mine to activate a two piece set bonus. I'm basically following the exact plan Tet laid out, and will be using my T4 gloves to serve as the second piece. I'm not expecting an out-right upgrade, but am hoping the hit rating increase will allow me to let go of my infinite jewel offhand from netherspite, and let me use my soul eater orb once again, which is a very decent shadow damage upgrade for me. We'll see though, luckily everyone in my token group is done with T4 chests, so it's a free experiment =)

I've never been able to get a flowing wrap off Attumen, so I've been hobbling by with a Soul eater gloves from Mag (not a slouch item, just not ideal). Sadly, I'm still working up the money for the spellstrike pants (just blew too much building my blessings deck, oh well, one thing at a time).

What are thoughts on breaking the two-piece spellstrike set to use the cowl off VR out of curiousity? Just got mine, and am still going to make my pants, but very undecided on whether to use the cowl or the spellstrike hood for the two-piece bonus. I see it's a popular choice for most destro warlocks, but I'm still hesitant to break the bonus purely off observing my shadow priest friends using it. I'm mainly affliction these days in our raid just for a little background.