Mage and Spell Hit

Salted · 08/15/07, 2:36 PM

A friend of mine is saying that the first thing ANY caster dps wants to do is max out spell hit at 16% before putting anything into +dmg/+crit.

Now when he was looking into this is was primarily for Warlock, and this is an accepted truth there, but what about mages? Given the lack of DOTs and 2x dmg from crits that just about any spec has, plus other possible benefits like ignite, master of elements, is +hit the way to go for mages as well?

I'm used to playing a melee class with an easy 1 roll combat table, how does it work for casters?

Pheroz · 08/15/07, 2:43 PM

I'm willing to bet you didn't use the search function before posting this. It is discussed in far more detail in several other threads on these forums.

Spell hit is more valuable then spell crit, assuming your aren't hit capped. So much so that 4 spell hit rating is approximately as valuable as 7 spell crit rating.

With reards to spell damage, I believe the numbers say that 1 spell damage is slightly more valuable then 1 spell hit rating at standard levels of gear, but there will be some variance based on your other relevant stats.

Dragooner · 08/15/07, 2:44 PM

Mage
- 10/48/3 is the best PVE raw damage spec until at least 2 piece Tier 5 (and maybe even then), but Frost maintains the best control and survivability in non-raid situations (grinding and instances).
- +hit will generally provide the best increase in damage per item budget until it is capped at 16%.

From this thread : Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.1

I trust this thread I think.

Grymm · 08/15/07, 2:44 PM

Well, without factoring hit mechanics, spell hit (according to wowiki) converts to 1% at only 12.6 itemization points. 1 crit requires 22.1 itemization points. Adding hit turns resists into hits (+100% damage). Adding crit turns hits into crits (+100% damage on most talented spells). So, for 12.6 points you are buying the same damage gain as 22.1%. A lot of people who go first step +hit are going with this thought process. This applies a lot to locks as they value crits less. Knowing how import landing a polymorph on KT trash can be, I think it's fairly important to mages as well.

Salted · 08/15/07, 3:21 PM

I did actually do a search, but didn't come up with any threads obviously relating to it...I also read the Stickied thread and it said by "item budget". I'm somewhat familiar with stock item budget, but what about gems - do the same rules apply? I'm using my background as a warrior where +8 hit gem is more % per point than +8 crit, but that doesn't stop +8 crit from being obviously better....but I suppose mages just have a much simpler crit vs hit mechanic than warriors.

So per percent +hit is better. I would also say then that +dmg is less valuable than +hit, especially given the coefficients and the fact that +dmg is multiplied by crit, but a resisted spell is 0 regardless.

Lambach · 08/15/07, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Salted

I did actually do a search, but didn't come up with any threads obviously relating to it...I also read the Stickied thread and it said by "item budget". I'm somewhat familiar with stock item budget, but what about gems - do the same rules apply? I'm using my background as a warrior where +8 hit gem is more % per point than +8 crit, but that doesn't stop +8 crit from being obviously better....but I suppose mages just have a much simpler crit vs hit mechanic than warriors.

So per percent +hit is better. I would also say then that +dmg is less valuable than +hit, especially given the coefficients and the fact that +dmg is multiplied by crit, but a resisted spell is 0 regardless.

Great example. Your exactly right. The difference is that warriors have a very easy time hitting the hit% cap with their MH weapon. Before 8.75%(around there, i forget) for duelwielding, hit is also always better then crit. But, since most warriors hit that easily crit is usually better for them even though it takes more item budget on gems to get a %. Just like mages who have hit 16% will definatly see more advantage from +crit gems.(or dmg)

Salted · 08/15/07, 4:52 PM

I saw a related thread below that goes into crit/hit a bunch, but never really came out with a definate answer...

Basically, I think I accidentally stepped into a contentious debate over how many rolls spells are calculated in, and in which order.

Have there been any new break-throughs on this front?

What I gathered from the thread was that the resist roll and the crit/hit roll are seperate, which would mean +hit rules the day since you are not only changing a possible resist into a hit, you are also changing a possible resist into a crit, making true the old statement "you need to hit before you can crit." Unlike melee single-roll where your crit% is calculated over all attacks.

Brakar · 08/15/07, 7:40 PM

Originally Posted by Salted

I did actually do a search, but didn't come up with any threads obviously relating to it...I also read the Stickied thread and it said by "item budget". I'm somewhat familiar with stock item budget, but what about gems - do the same rules apply? I'm using my background as a warrior where +8 hit gem is more % per point than +8 crit, but that doesn't stop +8 crit from being obviously better....but I suppose mages just have a much simpler crit vs hit mechanic than warriors.

So per percent +hit is better. I would also say then that +dmg is less valuable than +hit, especially given the coefficients and the fact that +dmg is multiplied by crit, but a resisted spell is 0 regardless.

Really? [Mage] +hit overrated? seems like a pretty good place to start.

Dothorio · 08/15/07, 8:18 PM

Gearing yourself appropriately to raid, including proper gemming and full use of tailoring gear, the hit cap is extremely easy to hit, and you don't have to sacrifice damage (and crit, to a lesser extent) to get there.

164 hit rating for frost/fire (126 if you raid with elemental shaman) and 76 hit rating for full arcane is not hard to hit at all.

Greybone · 08/16/07, 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by Brakar

Really? [Mage] +hit overrated? seems like a pretty good place to start.

It does