◊ Kaubel

I'm a damn idiot and deleted the previous thread. (I'll place part of the blame on another user who created another thread on the same topic.) It was sloppy moderation though, and I offer my sincere apologies.

Anyway, use this shiny new thread.

 

Zurgat

Found out i had copied a bit to our guild forums.

Blizzard's "smart debuffs" only apply to level 60 debuffs.. not lvl 70.

---

Let's say we use : (might vary slightly per day)

2 war tanks + 2 dps
Sunder
Demoralizing Shout
Thunderclap / Thunderfury debuff
Deep Wounds
Mortal Strike
Blood Frenzy
- Never Rend

2 Druids - feral
Faerie Fire
Rip
Mangle
- Never Rake or Pounce

2 Shadow priests
SW:P x2
Vampiric touch x2
Vampiric embrace x2
Mindflay x2
Misery
Shadow Weaving

3 Warlocks
Curse of elements
Curse of shadow
CoA
Corruption x 3
UA x3
Imp Shadowbolt
Shadow embrace
- Avoid Siphonlife or Drainlife (unless you will die otherwise)

3 Mages
Imp Scorch
Ignite
Fireball dot (unavoidable sadly)

1 Enhancement shaman
Thunder strike
- No Flameshock

2 Rogues
Rupture x2
Deadly poison x2
Hemorrhage
- No Garrotes

2 Hunters
Imp Hunter's Mark
Scorpid Sting -5% hit chance
Scorpid Poison
- Never viper sting

That's 42 debuffs.
Rogue deadly poison could be kicked off, to make room for the paladin debuffs when we have a ret paladin.
Some bosses are poison / bleed immune though, but that's another matter.

But other than that, we're pretty up on the 40 debuff limit.
Also would still like expose weakness (hunter surv) at some time.

On the subject of "shadow embrace" , any locks with 1-4 points in it, either need to get 5 points in it, or not use it at all.
Curse of Weakness is a waste of a debuff slot it doesn't stack with improved demo shout.

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khel

Does shadow embrace actually work globally now? The last I heard, it only reduced the targets damage done to the warlock, instead of his damage done to everyone else as well.

 

Zurgat

I'm not sure in that regard, but i guess it would need some testing.
If what you say is true that'll save our locks a few talent points.

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Rugrud

About debuffs

What's interesting me is the following:
- Do they stack?
- Are they worth casting?
- Are they worth specing the improved version?

Boss damage output reduction:
Thunder Clap (warrior): -10% boss attack speed (-20% talented)
Scorpid Sting (hunter): -5% hit for boss
Insect swarm (Druid talent): -2% hit for boss
Shadow embrace (warlock talent): -5% boss physical damage
Demoralizing shout (warrior): -300 boss AP (-420 talented)
Curse of weakness (warlock): -350 boss AP (-420 talented)
Demoralizing roar (druid): -240 boss AP (336 talented)
Vindication (Paladin talent): -15% boss agi and str

Boss Magical DPS input increase:
Misery (Shadowpriest talent): +5% magical damage
Shadow weaving (Shadowpriest talent): +15% shadow damage
Curse of Shadows (Warlock): +10% shadow/arcane damage (+13% talented)
Curse of the Elements (Warlock): +10% fire/frost damage (+13% talented)
Improved Scorch (Mage talent): +15% fire damage
Winter's Chill (Mage talent): +10% to crit chance for frost
Improved Shadow Bolt (Warlock Talent): +20% shadow damage on a SB crit
Stormstrike (Shaman talent): +20% damage on next 2 nature attacks
Sanctified Crusader (Paladin talent): +3% crit chance

Boss Physical DPS input increase:
Sunder armor (Warrior): -2600 armor
Faerie Fire (Druid): -640 armor (+3% to hit talented)
Expose armor (Rogue): -2050 armor (-3075 talented)
Curse of recklessness (Warlock): -800 armor but +135 boss AP
Expose weakness (hunter talent): +25% of hunt's agi added to raid AP
Blood frenzy (Warrior talent): +4% physical damage
Sanctified Crusader (Paladin talent): +3% crit chance

What have i forgotten?
Which ones stack/don't stack (especially regarding armor/AP/hit reduction)
Which one are worth casting/spec for?

Thanks in advance

 

sasukekun

Screech (Hunter Bird Pets) is -210 AP, I'm pretty sure it stacks with demoralizing shout (warrior).

Also, 2 hunters using 2 different ranks of Scorpid Poison is 2 debuffs as well.

 

Darksided

You missed
Blood Frenzy (warrior talent): +4% melee damage

Vindication is currently near worthless to spec in for raids as every boss that I bothered to test it on (SSC and TK) is immune to it. Even a lot of heroic trash is immune It's apparently getting a nice PVP change in 2.3 where it will lower all stats by 15%, but I can't see Blizzard letting bosses get debuffed by this, if the change goes through at all.

Also, you have Curse of Recklessness listed twice.

 

Rolapin

You also missed the Improved Fairie Fire debuff (balance druid) : +3% physical hit for the raid.

 

Hiba

It has always reduced all the physical damage the mob does.

Lightwell object increased in size to make it easier to click.

 

Sitezem

Unholy weapon enchant: -15 damage from boss attacks (may be with some multiplier, need testing)

 

Viconya

What's about paladin debuff?

Judgement of wisdom for example is a huge debuff for a lot of casters even for a enhancement shaman..

 

Spades

Expose and Sunder armor don't play nice. Demo Shout and Curse of Weakness don't stack. Seconding Judgements; Wisdom especially should be up every fight if possible and Light makes certain encounters cake.

"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
-Rorschach, Watchmen

 

◊ Lord BEEF

I think MAYBE POSSIBLY at one point, probably in beta or early release, it only applied to damage done to the warlock. But yeah, it works as you'd expect now.

Check out my friend's bitchin' Lord of the Rings Art

 

Dinadass

Most affliction warlocks cast siphon life and immolate in addition to UA, Corr, and a curse. Having some of them respec destro cuts that down to just a curse and maybe corruption or immolate, depending on exact spec/gear/preference. You need to be hitcapped and have high crit and damage (25%+ and 1200+ roughly) in order for destro to even come close to affliction though.

And in response to Rugrud, Curse of Weakness doesn't stack with Imp Demo, so it's useless 99% of the time.

 

Rhoi

i wouldent worry too much about the 2 stacks of scorpid poison. Its getting hit with the nerfbat pretty hard in the next patch from what the PTR is showing (about 200 a tick). i doubt it would be worth the waste of even 1 debuff slot when this happens.

 

SeanDamnit

I'm curious to know if anyone has researched the mechanics around the 40 debuff limit - as in what gets pushed off and what stays once the limit is reached. I couldn't find any threads on it.

 

• constantius

There's been some commentary from the warlocks about their curses. Apparently, in typical Blizzard fashion, they broke something that they fixed before. In pre-TBC, they buffed curses so that they had a higher priority than transitory debuffs like DoTs, etc.. For some reason, they forgot to do this for the new ranks of CoS/CoReck/CoE/CoW/CoA/CoD that you gain by lvl 70, so those are getting pushed off.

It's bad when CoS gets pushed off. It's worse when CoD gets pushed off.

There are only ~ 11 mandatory debuffs for any given boss; the rest are DoTs that come from your dps classes. At least, IMO.

=====================
Sunder Armor x5
Thunderclap
Demoralizing Shout

Expose Weakness
Imp Hunter's Mark

Faerie Fire (imp or non-imp, still should be up)

CoS
CoE
Misery

JoW
JoL
====================

Everything else is spec/class dependent. You'll have Imp Scorch, or Shadoweaving, or what have you. Raid-wide multi-class buffs are those listed above. Anything else is school specific (I think).

If you have it, you could easily justify Blood Frenzy as being mandatory as well, simply because it's so huge for hunters & pets / rogues / warriors / enh shamans / feral druids / tanks.

 

PSGarak

Back when there were 16 debuff slots there was some sort of priority system in place. Curses, hunter's mark, and suchlike wouldn't get knocked off (note that at this point there were very very few similar effects). Since going up to 40 slots, it looks like the priority system got shafted, and it's a first-on, first-off system as far as I can tell (in other words my Curse of Shadows is the first to go down =P).
It's kinda hard to do research because you need 40 debuffs on a mob.

Regarding specific debuffs:
JoW should be up if at all possible, JoC should be up if you have a ret paladin.
Immo and siphon are the first DoTs that should be dropped by an aff lock. Imm takes priority on burn fights, siphon on longevity fights. No, warlocks don't have longevity issues, it's about maintaining their own lifetap.
If arcane somehow magically became viable that would not only remove all 5-7 of the mage debuffs, but warlock Curse of Elements as well (probably replacing with CoA).
Scorpid Poison is apparently being nerfed next patch. Not actually fixed, mind you, the rolling BM thingy still works. They're just nerfing it so that even with that it does very mild damage. You can either drop those debuffs or replace it with owl screech.
If ALL your dps warriors are fury instead of MS that's another two debuff slots.

Some raid encounters put their own debuffs on mobs as well.

 

• constantius

So you advocate arcane mages, dropping the <# mages>+1 debuff slots, and replacing them with <# warlocks>-1 CoAs? Seems a bit biased, if understandable. :p

(Mage debuffs are Fireball DoT + Scorch stack - nothing else, afaik).

Also, why are Fury warriors going to put up more debuffs than MS warriors? Both will have Deep Wounds; MS warriors have ... MS (obviously) ... Fury warriors have ... ? Unless they're spamstringing ....

I'm hoping Blizzard will stop being dumb and just make a stacking debuff system. They've shown they have the capability in the idea of stacking Lifebloom ... just make it so that any debuff of type <1-75> only takes up one slot.

5 CoA -> 1 slot
5 Corruption -> 1 slot
5 Deep Wounds -> 1 slot
3 SW:P -> 1 slot

That would completely remove the need to fool around with their stupid lack of priority system. Of course, it would also be potentially overpowered (20 warlocks, 1 tank, 4 healers ... WIN)

 

• Snowy

Depending on your progression level and the encounter, having CoR up may be quite important as well.

Paladin: Pyla
Mage: Pylah

 

Larisroth

Mangle is pretty essential for cat form dps, and will buff bleed effects by 30% (deep wounds, rupture, rip). For 25 man, I feel they do need to reintroduce some form of priority, because as it is with 40 debuff slots it's pretty hard to see what's up, and you lose quite a bit potential dps just sticking to the essentials. Fortunately, most of the important debuffs can be pretty quickly reapplied.

The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

 

Gnomordots

I have a few questions about debuff slots and the most effective way(s) of using them: My guild runs a very heavy caster dps setup with 3-5 Warlocks and 3-5 Mages and I'm seeing Curse of Shadow/Reck/Elements knocked off a lot.

How many Warlocks should be Destruction (0/21/40) specced to maximize ISB uptime and free up some debuff slots if we raid 4/5 Warlocks? Our Affliction locks use 4 debuff slots each (no immol) - destruction locks use 1-2 each not counting ISB.

Our dpsers last Vashj kill looked like this:
3 Rogue
3 Hunter
2 Shadow Priest
1 Feral Druid
1 Enhancement Shaman
4 Warlocks (2 Destruction - 2 Affliction)
5 Mages (All Fire)
1 DPS Warrior

Also, is there some way I can measure the raid dps increase from ISB by calculating the crit% of all the Warlocks vs. frequency of Shadow Priest MB/SWD & SB?

Thanks in advance.

 

Leveret

So CoR definitely stacks with the other armor reduction debuffs?

Also, I think once you get beyond two affliction warlocks, it is probably not a good idea to bring a third affliction warlock. Bringing a third means the first two would not be able to use siphon life and immolate in fear of breaching the debuff limit, which is a loss of DPS. Instead it would be more beneficial to bring a destruction warlock, or perhaps even a demonology warlock, either of which will be geared for much higher crit chance than an affliction warlock and who will be able to keep Improved Shadow Bolt for a greater percentage of time, resulting in higher overall DPS from the warlocks and shadowpriests.

 

Antoine

I'd switch some of your mages to arcane, if they have 2/5 t5 (which some surely will if you're killing Vashj). They get a lot of threat reduction, which is really nice for killing striders, they get slow, which is nice for striders, and they don't have that dumb fireball dot which has a stupidly high priority fireball dot.

 

Zurgat

The fireball dot can often create some additional risks on it's own.
Basically with anything that deaggros and runs off after the first person that has a dot on it.
Such as: Gruul's lair mobs, Hydross, Greyheart protectors.

It's definitely good to get your fire mages to spec arcane, aside freeing up a debuff slot it'll help a lot with killing Al'Ar as well. Since they won't need to complain about wanting to respec 2x a week for it anymore.
However, a shadowpriest or 2 becomes close to mandatory.

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