Yes, but without even trying to get any stamina gear and just using healing upgrades, I've been fine on every single one of those fights. They've added a lot of raid damage, yes, but they've also added more stamina to all gear. I think losing any mp5, +healing, or crit for stam is a complete waste.
Sure. I never said that stamina is worth sacrificing for, but it is something worth considering when considering gear choices. My main reason for choosing Savior's Grasp is that it has a lot of crit% on it and just so happened to also have a nice amount of sta and int (and it was better than what I was using at the time). When comparing between the T6 BP and Savior's Grasp, I'm mostly looking at crit % lost, since I know that crit % scales better than +healing does.
4 piece T6 has 5% crit for HL on it, but that does nothing to help FoL efficiency. If you use all 5 pieces of T6, you actually lose crit over what I have now, making FoL less efficient.
Yes, but without even trying to get any stamina gear and just using healing upgrades, I've been fine on every single one of those fights. They've added a lot of raid damage, yes, but they've also added more stamina to all gear. I think losing any mp5, +healing, int, or crit for stam is a complete waste.
I can see this seeming true from an individual's perspective. However, from a raid leader's perspective, HP matters. People do die and every death is exponentially more preventable with more HP.
I'm seeing weird results from the "min/max healing with crits" data. It shows huge numbers, over 100k values... Am I misunderstanding what info is being shown, or is there something wrong with the equation?
fyi, i'm using OpenOffice to view the sheet, so maybe that is causing some problem.
It's interesting that you guys bring up downranking HL because personally I've never thought about doing it much. My general healing strategy has always been: Max rank flash spam until more HPS is needed, then switch to max rank holy light with DF/DI and some canceling. With my current gear and consumables.. mana is never an issue so downranking never seemed neccesary.
And since mana is never really a problem, I'm leaning towards using +22 healing gems more because I figure I may as well increase my HPS since my state of mind is mostly: "If I don't go near OOM on a fight, that much MP5 was worthless"(ignoring that the higher % mana you have, the more reckless you are with your healing so your HPS is higher). Spell crit gems seem more attractive than +22 healing but once I get RoS or T6 helm, I'll be using the Mystical meta because that's an insane increase in HPS and requires more blues than yellow.
The point of the thread is though to state and argue about the most efficient heal, which in most situations will be R4HL.. I believe that though that once you have 4pcT6 and get up to 2300-2400 + heal.. flash will start outputting too much more than the low level spell, R4HL.
Also consider that if you're using the Prayerbook, which most should/do.. unless you carry spell haste to gimp other stats, flash spam gets more than R4HL from the prayerbook. Which makes theorycrafting it difficult because of how soon/when you use it when the CD is up and how many canceled heals you do after the use it up etc.
4 piece T6 has 5% crit for HL on it, but that does nothing to help FoL efficiency. If you use all 5 pieces of T6, you actually lose crit over what I have now, making FoL less efficient.
I think you are confused, since it is 2-PC T6 that gives you 5% extra crit on Holy Light. 4 pieces gives you 5% more healing on FoL -- so yes it certainly does help FoL efficiency. Or maybe you are stating (it's difficult to tell given your posts) that HL crit is meaningless for FoL which of course it is -- but it's not worthless by any means, especially given your throughput is going to suffer going from 4-pc T5. All things being equal I don't see how (48 int, 46 scrit, 106 healing) is going to best (33 int, 28 crit, 117 healing and 11mp5 with 3 sockets). Add 2x 10scrit gems and 1x 11h/2mp5 or 2x 11h/5int and 1x11h/2mp5...
I can see this seeming true from an individual's perspective. However, from a raid leader's perspective, HP matters. People do die and every death is exponentially more preventable with more HP.
Yes of course it is, but the fact of the matter is giving up healing and longevity for stamina on this type of gear is not wise at all. In fact given the stats this gear gives you coupled with the fact that we are talking about paladins -- I don't see how the extra 100-200HP is worthwhile at all. Justifying gemming healing gear with stamina for a paladin seems ludicrous.
Tpyo: I used to be the same way, but with our healing set up it led to way more close calls and wipes because of that style. I'm interested in what kind of healing set up you run with and what you put on the MT most of the time.
About stamina, I find it not important to think about. However, I am only in a guild that is starting on lurker.
From my experience, I already have 1-1.5k more hp then priests, and about 10k more armor. I am usually one of the last healers to die. A well timed bubble makes a huge difference (I think i use it once on most fights).
For those reasons I don't think about stamina. Only when some of those reasons change, will I consider stamina. Again, I'm only at lurker, so things could change in later stuff.
I think you are confused, since it is 2-PC T6 that gives you 5% extra crit on Holy Light. 4 pieces gives you 5% more healing on FoL -- so yes it certainly does help FoL efficiency. Or maybe you are stating (it's difficult to tell given your posts) that HL crit is meaningless for FoL which of course it is -- but it's not worthless by any means, especially given your throughput is going to suffer going from 4-pc T5.
What I was saying was with full 5-piece T6, you lose crit on FoL over my current setup, since the bonuses on T6 only affect HL crit. It's not clear to me, yet, whether with going with Savior's Grasp for the crit on it or going with the T6 BP is better, if you go with the T6 route and use FoL as your fast, small heal.
I just added it up top but how in the world do you think SG is better?
All things being equal I don't see how (48 int, 46 scrit, 106 healing) is going to best (33 int, 28 crit, 117 healing and 11mp5 with 3 sockets). Add 2x 10scrit gems and 1x 11h/2mp5 or 2x 11h/5int and 1x11h/2mp5 (both with a +9 healing bonus)...
Keeping in mind that the added mp5, while not the optimal stat for us means you can compromise with other gearing choices and it still has as much spell crit. The extra stamina holds no weight in this decision at all in my eyes, though YMMV.
I'm seeing weird results from the "min/max healing with crits" data. It shows huge numbers, over 100k values... Am I misunderstanding what info is being shown, or is there something wrong with the equation?
fyi, i'm using OpenOffice to view the sheet, so maybe that is causing some problem.
Yes, it's correct. Just like in my example calculation in my post, it's calculating the amount of healing you'd do in 100 casts, with x number of those casts being crits with x% spell crit. It also calculates the number of seconds you'd spend casting those 100 heals non-stop, and uses those numbers to calculate healing/s, mana/s, and healing/mana.
Tpyo: I used to be the same way, but with our healing set up it led to way more close calls and wipes because of that style. I'm interested in what kind of healing set up you run with and what you put on the MT most of the time.
We usually run 4 Holy Paladins, 3-4 Shamans, 1 Holy Priest. Sometimes a druid. I realize that the ideal would be 2-3 Paladins(1 ret), 3-4 shamans, 1 priest, 1 druid or something of that sort but that's just how our roster has ended up.
Anyway, on the MT we usually have all paladins spamming flash on the MT with the other healing classes healing the raid.. obviously with some HoTs on the MT. All depends on the encounter however. Best example I suppose is Azgalor: Either 3 Paladins/1 Priest on MT or 4 Paladins then out of the other 4 healers in the raid.. 2 are on raid healing, 2 healing the doomguard OTs. For MT healing we all spam Flash of Light until a silence and whoever resists spams R11HL. We all wear max SR for Azgalor.
I just added it up top but how in the world do you think SG is better?
All things being equal I don't see how (48 int, 46 scrit, 106 healing) is going to best (33 int, 28 crit, 117 healing and 11mp5 with 3 sockets). Add 2x 10scrit gems and 1x 11h/2mp5 or 2x 11h/5int and 1x11h/2mp5 (both with a +9 healing bonus)...
Keeping in mind that the added mp5, while not the optimal stat for us means you can compromise with other gearing choices and it still has as much spell crit. The extra stamina holds no weight in this decision at all in my eyes, though YMMV.
I hadn't made up my mind, yet, but in the end, yes, I think the mp5 from the T6 BP wins out.
One thing the spreadsheet doesn't take into account is mana contributions from mp5. I should add it in, but I don't know when I'll get the chance.
The one really nice thing about T6 over T5 (and the T6 BP in particular) is that it does add about 20 mp5.
We usually run 4 Holy Paladins, 3-4 Shamans, 1 Holy Priest. Sometimes a druid. I realize that the ideal would be 2-3 Paladins(1 ret), 3-4 shamans, 1 priest, 1 druid or something of that sort but that's just how our roster has ended up.
Anyway, on the MT we usually have all paladins spamming flash on the MT with the other healing classes healing the raid.. obviously with some HoTs on the MT. All depends on the encounter however. Best example I suppose is Azgalor: Either 3 Paladins/1 Priest on MT or 4 Paladins then out of the other 4 healers in the raid.. 2 are on raid healing, 2 healing the doomguard OTs. For MT healing we all spam Flash of Light until a silence and whoever resists spams R11HL. We all wear max SR for Azgalor.
It just looks like you bring 1-2 more healers than us which probably could make the difference. Thats interesting.
We usually run 4 Holy Paladins, 3-4 Shamans, 1 Holy Priest. Sometimes a druid. I realize that the ideal would be 2-3 Paladins(1 ret), 3-4 shamans, 1 priest, 1 druid or something of that sort but that's just how our roster has ended up.
Anyway, on the MT we usually have all paladins spamming flash on the MT with the other healing classes healing the raid.. obviously with some HoTs on the MT. All depends on the encounter however. Best example I suppose is Azgalor: Either 3 Paladins/1 Priest on MT or 4 Paladins then out of the other 4 healers in the raid.. 2 are on raid healing, 2 healing the doomguard OTs. For MT healing we all spam Flash of Light until a silence and whoever resists spams R11HL. We all wear max SR for Azgalor.
I always find it interesting seeing different healing strategies and I suppose we are little different in that we rarely (if ever) have all the paladins flashing the tank on boss encounters. For example on Azgalor we have 2 paladins, 1 resto shaman and a druid healing the tank and I personally use 4-pc T5 and use varying ranks of HL for that fight since the damage is fairly bursty. Never had a tank death either and none of our healers use max SR. Having hots/NS is pretty handy for bad silences -- in addition to 2x DS. As has been mentioned, having a couple of trees around really changes MT healing dynamics (not to mention for the longest time we ran BT/Hyjal with 6ish healers and no restoration druids which was interesting to say the least).
Clarified my original post about gems. Nat pointed out to me that it sounded like I was running around with Solid Stars of Elune in my gear, which is not what I was saying at all. My whole point is that stamina is a good stat to keep in the back of your mind instead of blindly choosing +healing all the time, but it should not dominate your gem/gear choices. By mentioning stamina in the gem section, I was mostly referring to the sta/spell crit green gem you can get from instances. =)
Your stamina increases as you get more geared out in tier 5-6, so I see no reason to socket stamina. Especially as a Paladin, we are a very sturdy class.
Archimonde, RoS etc are very repeatable without stacking survivability after you kill it a few times. The only reason it might have helped early on is because it was just trying to live as long as possible as others learn the fight.
You have Illidan down, the only time where stamina will become an issue is new content and like past progression content that requires a good chunk of HP, you can swap on a piece of Gladiator gear for it. No reason to nerf your PvE gear with a bad gem. In PvP I do not even stick stam gems in my gear.
Edit:
As far as gear choices, I think that I will probably pick up all the Spell crit Paladin off set pieces that are not tier 5 Legs, Gloves, Chest and Shoulders.
I think that's it. Tier 6 is something ill loot when it's rotting (though not many people want it now, so i'll probably be picking it up soon). I might use the tier 6 as ret gear tbh, we'll see.
I always find it interesting seeing different healing strategies and I suppose we are little different in that we rarely (if ever) have all the paladins flashing the tank on boss encounters. For example on Azgalor we have 2 paladins, 1 resto shaman and a druid healing the tank and I personally use 4-pc T5 and use varying ranks of HL for that fight since the damage is fairly bursty. Never had a tank death either and none of our healers use max SR. Having hots/NS is pretty handy for bad silences -- in addition to 2x DS. As has been mentioned, having a couple of trees around really changes MT healing dynamics (not to mention for the longest time we ran BT/Hyjal with 6ish healers and no restoration druids which was interesting to say the least).
Yeah, we usually just have 2-3 holy paladins and/or a priest on the MT. Azgalor was interesting without a tree druid (ours quit a week ago), but we managed. I think we only had 6 healers for that fight as well. I mostly stick with r7 HLs for almost all fights, upranking accordingly when different situations happen.
I suppose that general way of healing a MT for us started back when we were learning Nightbane/Gruul/Magtheridon(all in their original forms except Mag, the version where he actually did damage). We found that whenever the tank took a burst, one holy light would land and the rest would just overheal, after awhile the paladins who never got anything but overheal from this were sitting at 100% mana while I was at 20% because HL11 is so horribly draining.. so I proposed that we just spam Flash.. as unskilled/high overhealing as it was.. we found we were killing bosses with all of us with plenty of mana to spare and the tank always was at 100% before the next burst came.
We always felt that paladins were horrible at raid healing, because we have to heal all of our targets one at a time.. FoL is horrible HPS and Holy Light would often be too slow and another heal would reach the player before the HL would land and it would be wasted time.. or we just caused HoTs to not tick or whatever the case may have been. I realize we lacked the armor buffs that shamans/priests provide but it just ended up working out for us.
EDIT: As for running 8 healers usually.. we found that lacking DPS never wiped us, lacking healing did. For Rage/Kaz'rogal/Supremus/Akama/Reliquary/Teron you can run 6-7.. but we even use 10 for Shahraz/Archimonde and sometimes 11 for Council. 9 for Illidan. We just have all spriests but maybe 1 respec holy.. as you can't cast fear ward for Archimonde in sForm anyway, and they're useless on Shahraz almost. Keep em' holy for council and they respec back for Illidan.
EDIT: As for running 8 healers usually.. we found that lacking DPS never wiped us, lacking healing did. For Rage/Kaz'rogal/Supremus/Akama/Reliquary/Teron you can run 6-7.. but we even use 10 for Shahraz/Archimonde and sometimes 11 for Council. 9 for Illidan.
Wow, that is a shit load of healing. We run 8 healers max for every fight in the game. Usually its 7. DPS isn't usually the cause of wiping, but faster DPS really shortens the time in which people can make mistakes, do stupid things, etc. :p
You have Illidan down, the only time where stamina will become an issue is new content and like past progression content that requires a good chunk of HP, you can swap on a piece of Gladiator gear for it. No reason to nerf your PvE gear with a bad gem. In PvP I do not even stick stam gems in my gear.
Ya, Renew, I ninja edited my post on you after it was clear that people were misunderstanding my point about stamina. =)
I don't go out of my way to stack stamina on my gear. But, as an example, I hated to lose the stamina going from [Boots of Valiance] to [Boots of Courage Unending]. The increase in other stats, however, is so nice that I did it anyway. The end answer, of course, is to just get [Pearl Inlaid Boots] that trump the other two.
It is something I make sure I'm not forgetting, however. Of a list of things I compare when looking at items, it's last of about 5-6 things.
Yeah, I realize we're almost getting off topic at this point but I do think a lot of it has to do with lacking proper healing assignments within our raid.. probably our biggest weakpoint atm. I find myself that I get too focused on my own job that I can't observe the situation that other healers are in etc, like on council I can't see what the rogue/mage tanks' healers are up to and on Shahraz I can't see what the FA healers have it like since I have my camera in bird's eye view the whole fight for easier spreading if I am to get FA... I have the same problem in arena too, lack of awareness of everything thats going on =/
We always felt that paladins were horrible at raid healing, because we have to heal all of our targets one at a time.. FoL is horrible HPS and Holy Light would often be too slow and another heal would reach the player before the HL would land and it would be wasted time.. or we just caused HoTs to not tick or whatever the case may have been. I realize we lacked the armor buffs that shamans/priests provide but it just ended up working out for us.
...
Just wanted to comment on this. I've really found that this is just not true (personel wise we have been running with just 1 shaman 4 paladins and and 1 tree and 1 Holy priest and the Holy Priest is just not a good raid healer-so we've had to use Pallys on the raid and been pretty impressed with the results). I will say that we will almost never match chealing shaman for raid healing power-The ability to spam 1500+ direct heals quickly for the entirety of a fight is not something to disparage. Not going to splash epeen wws around-but PM me if you like and I can show you some very effective examples of Paladins raid healing. Disclaimer being it will be on SSC/TKish content (Vashj, A'lar, even Mag) - we haven't entered Hyjal yet.
It always seemed to me our gear provides us with more than average amounts of stam as it is, and never really feel like I needed more on any of those high raid damage fights that were listed previously. Im pretty sure I already have more life than most other healers in the raid (even the taurens), spriests and mages of course as well. Improved Right. Fury adds a bit of a buffer too, and can be used on most fights.
As far as gemming...originally I was all about the + heal gems, but I have started to alter my choices recently especially as I get more t6 and none of the 5 set pieces actually having a red socket (I think?), for the most part I have been matching the socket colours since most of the socket bonuses seem worth it now.
Perhaps its just my guild and our reliance on paladins, but I've found a number of varying roles for paladin healing with the acquisition of 4pc T5. We usually run 1 Tree/1-2 Holy Priests/3-4 Paladins/1 Shaman for healers. I sort of see paladin as the leatherman of healers, not an ideal tool for any particular situation, but pretty good at all of them. Rather than having 4pc paladins tank heal (I don't exclude them from that certainly), I'll often have them raid heal, especially in any situation where timely raid healing is paramount (p2 Vashj). A series of high rank 1.75s HL's can repair forked lightning / tainted combos faster than any other healer (barring lucked out targeting for PoH). A 4pc Crystalforge paladin with an spriest is incredibly potent for sustained hp/s, and I can't see dropping the bonus until I have full Lightbringer available.
Edit: On a related note, I'm planning on retaining Crystalforge set pieces and going for haste rating to drop Holy Light to just over 1.5 seconds, thus basically eliminating Flash from my raid healing repertoire. This will sacrifice a bit of spellcrit/mp5 along the way (since I'll need belt, bracers or shoulders, double ring). Any thoughts on this gear path?
08/27/07, 5:38 PM
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