[Paladin] Healing Efficiency - Page 3

• moz · 08/27/07, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Natural

I can see this seeming true from an individual's perspective. However, from a raid leader's perspective, HP matters. People do die and every death is exponentially more preventable with more HP.

Yes of course it is, but the fact of the matter is giving up healing and longevity for stamina on this type of gear is not wise at all. In fact given the stats this gear gives you coupled with the fact that we are talking about paladins -- I don't see how the extra 100-200HP is worthwhile at all. Justifying gemming healing gear with stamina for a paladin seems ludicrous.

jusion · 08/27/07, 5:22 PM

Tpyo: I used to be the same way, but with our healing set up it led to way more close calls and wipes because of that style. I'm interested in what kind of healing set up you run with and what you put on the MT most of the time.

Rexjr · 08/27/07, 5:28 PM

About stamina, I find it not important to think about. However, I am only in a guild that is starting on lurker.

From my experience, I already have 1-1.5k more hp then priests, and about 10k more armor. I am usually one of the last healers to die. A well timed bubble makes a huge difference (I think i use it once on most fights).

For those reasons I don't think about stamina. Only when some of those reasons change, will I consider stamina. Again, I'm only at lurker, so things could change in later stuff.

Yilona · 08/27/07, 5:35 PM

Originally Posted by moz

I think you are confused, since it is 2-PC T6 that gives you 5% extra crit on Holy Light. 4 pieces gives you 5% more healing on FoL -- so yes it certainly does help FoL efficiency. Or maybe you are stating (it's difficult to tell given your posts) that HL crit is meaningless for FoL which of course it is -- but it's not worthless by any means, especially given your throughput is going to suffer going from 4-pc T5.

What I was saying was with full 5-piece T6, you lose crit on FoL over my current setup, since the bonuses on T6 only affect HL crit. It's not clear to me, yet, whether with going with Savior's Grasp for the crit on it or going with the T6 BP is better, if you go with the T6 route and use FoL as your fast, small heal.

• moz · 08/27/07, 5:36 PM

I just added it up top but how in the world do you think SG is better?

All things being equal I don't see how (48 int, 46 scrit, 106 healing) is going to best (33 int, 28 crit, 117 healing and 11mp5 with 3 sockets). Add 2x 10scrit gems and 1x 11h/2mp5 or 2x 11h/5int and 1x11h/2mp5 (both with a +9 healing bonus)...

Keeping in mind that the added mp5, while not the optimal stat for us means you can compromise with other gearing choices and it still has as much spell crit. The extra stamina holds no weight in this decision at all in my eyes, though YMMV.

Yilona · 08/27/07, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Rexjr

I'm seeing weird results from the "min/max healing with crits" data. It shows huge numbers, over 100k values... Am I misunderstanding what info is being shown, or is there something wrong with the equation?

fyi, i'm using OpenOffice to view the sheet, so maybe that is causing some problem.

Yes, it's correct. Just like in my example calculation in my post, it's calculating the amount of healing you'd do in 100 casts, with x number of those casts being crits with x% spell crit. It also calculates the number of seconds you'd spend casting those 100 heals non-stop, and uses those numbers to calculate healing/s, mana/s, and healing/mana.

Tpyo · 08/27/07, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by jusion

Tpyo: I used to be the same way, but with our healing set up it led to way more close calls and wipes because of that style. I'm interested in what kind of healing set up you run with and what you put on the MT most of the time.

We usually run 4 Holy Paladins, 3-4 Shamans, 1 Holy Priest. Sometimes a druid. I realize that the ideal would be 2-3 Paladins(1 ret), 3-4 shamans, 1 priest, 1 druid or something of that sort but that's just how our roster has ended up.

Anyway, on the MT we usually have all paladins spamming flash on the MT with the other healing classes healing the raid.. obviously with some HoTs on the MT. All depends on the encounter however. Best example I suppose is Azgalor: Either 3 Paladins/1 Priest on MT or 4 Paladins then out of the other 4 healers in the raid.. 2 are on raid healing, 2 healing the doomguard OTs. For MT healing we all spam Flash of Light until a silence and whoever resists spams R11HL. We all wear max SR for Azgalor.

Yilona · 08/27/07, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by moz

I just added it up top but how in the world do you think SG is better?

All things being equal I don't see how (48 int, 46 scrit, 106 healing) is going to best (33 int, 28 crit, 117 healing and 11mp5 with 3 sockets). Add 2x 10scrit gems and 1x 11h/2mp5 or 2x 11h/5int and 1x11h/2mp5 (both with a +9 healing bonus)...

Keeping in mind that the added mp5, while not the optimal stat for us means you can compromise with other gearing choices and it still has as much spell crit. The extra stamina holds no weight in this decision at all in my eyes, though YMMV.

I hadn't made up my mind, yet, but in the end, yes, I think the mp5 from the T6 BP wins out.

One thing the spreadsheet doesn't take into account is mana contributions from mp5. I should add it in, but I don't know when I'll get the chance.

The one really nice thing about T6 over T5 (and the T6 BP in particular) is that it does add about 20 mp5.

jusion · 08/27/07, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Tpyo

We usually run 4 Holy Paladins, 3-4 Shamans, 1 Holy Priest. Sometimes a druid. I realize that the ideal would be 2-3 Paladins(1 ret), 3-4 shamans, 1 priest, 1 druid or something of that sort but that's just how our roster has ended up.

Anyway, on the MT we usually have all paladins spamming flash on the MT with the other healing classes healing the raid.. obviously with some HoTs on the MT. All depends on the encounter however. Best example I suppose is Azgalor: Either 3 Paladins/1 Priest on MT or 4 Paladins then out of the other 4 healers in the raid.. 2 are on raid healing, 2 healing the doomguard OTs. For MT healing we all spam Flash of Light until a silence and whoever resists spams R11HL. We all wear max SR for Azgalor.

It just looks like you bring 1-2 more healers than us which probably could make the difference. Thats interesting.

• moz · 08/27/07, 6:01 PM

Originally Posted by Tpyo

We usually run 4 Holy Paladins, 3-4 Shamans, 1 Holy Priest. Sometimes a druid. I realize that the ideal would be 2-3 Paladins(1 ret), 3-4 shamans, 1 priest, 1 druid or something of that sort but that's just how our roster has ended up.

Anyway, on the MT we usually have all paladins spamming flash on the MT with the other healing classes healing the raid.. obviously with some HoTs on the MT. All depends on the encounter however. Best example I suppose is Azgalor: Either 3 Paladins/1 Priest on MT or 4 Paladins then out of the other 4 healers in the raid.. 2 are on raid healing, 2 healing the doomguard OTs. For MT healing we all spam Flash of Light until a silence and whoever resists spams R11HL. We all wear max SR for Azgalor.

I always find it interesting seeing different healing strategies and I suppose we are little different in that we rarely (if ever) have all the paladins flashing the tank on boss encounters. For example on Azgalor we have 2 paladins, 1 resto shaman and a druid healing the tank and I personally use 4-pc T5 and use varying ranks of HL for that fight since the damage is fairly bursty. Never had a tank death either and none of our healers use max SR. Having hots/NS is pretty handy for bad silences -- in addition to 2x DS. As has been mentioned, having a couple of trees around really changes MT healing dynamics (not to mention for the longest time we ran BT/Hyjal with 6ish healers and no restoration druids which was interesting to say the least).

Yilona · 08/27/07, 6:06 PM

Clarified my original post about gems. Nat pointed out to me that it sounded like I was running around with Solid Stars of Elune in my gear, which is not what I was saying at all. My whole point is that stamina is a good stat to keep in the back of your mind instead of blindly choosing +healing all the time, but it should not dominate your gem/gear choices. By mentioning stamina in the gem section, I was mostly referring to the sta/spell crit green gem you can get from instances. =)

Renew · 08/27/07, 6:07 PM

Your stamina increases as you get more geared out in tier 5-6, so I see no reason to socket stamina. Especially as a Paladin, we are a very sturdy class.

Archimonde, RoS etc are very repeatable without stacking survivability after you kill it a few times. The only reason it might have helped early on is because it was just trying to live as long as possible as others learn the fight.

You have Illidan down, the only time where stamina will become an issue is new content and like past progression content that requires a good chunk of HP, you can swap on a piece of Gladiator gear for it. No reason to nerf your PvE gear with a bad gem. In PvP I do not even stick stam gems in my gear.

Edit:

As far as gear choices, I think that I will probably pick up all the Spell crit Paladin off set pieces that are not tier 5 Legs, Gloves, Chest and Shoulders.

- [Crown of Empowered Fate]
- [Nadina's Pendant of Purity]
- [Ring of Calming Waves]
- [Girdle of Hope]
- [Hammer of Atonement] (Mainly because tier 5/6 itemization is poor for healing Maces and our Shaman etc could use an upgrade from Kara gear)
- [Felstone Bulwark]
- [Pearl Inlaid Boots]
- [Blessed Adamantite Bracers]

I think that's it. Tier 6 is something ill loot when it's rotting (though not many people want it now, so i'll probably be picking it up soon). I might use the tier 6 as ret gear tbh, we'll see.

jusion · 08/27/07, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by moz

I always find it interesting seeing different healing strategies and I suppose we are little different in that we rarely (if ever) have all the paladins flashing the tank on boss encounters. For example on Azgalor we have 2 paladins, 1 resto shaman and a druid healing the tank and I personally use 4-pc T5 and use varying ranks of HL for that fight since the damage is fairly bursty. Never had a tank death either and none of our healers use max SR. Having hots/NS is pretty handy for bad silences -- in addition to 2x DS. As has been mentioned, having a couple of trees around really changes MT healing dynamics (not to mention for the longest time we ran BT/Hyjal with 6ish healers and no restoration druids which was interesting to say the least).

Yeah, we usually just have 2-3 holy paladins and/or a priest on the MT. Azgalor was interesting without a tree druid (ours quit a week ago), but we managed. I think we only had 6 healers for that fight as well. I mostly stick with r7 HLs for almost all fights, upranking accordingly when different situations happen.

Tpyo · 08/27/07, 6:09 PM

I suppose that general way of healing a MT for us started back when we were learning Nightbane/Gruul/Magtheridon(all in their original forms except Mag, the version where he actually did damage). We found that whenever the tank took a burst, one holy light would land and the rest would just overheal, after awhile the paladins who never got anything but overheal from this were sitting at 100% mana while I was at 20% because HL11 is so horribly draining.. so I proposed that we just spam Flash.. as unskilled/high overhealing as it was.. we found we were killing bosses with all of us with plenty of mana to spare and the tank always was at 100% before the next burst came.

We always felt that paladins were horrible at raid healing, because we have to heal all of our targets one at a time.. FoL is horrible HPS and Holy Light would often be too slow and another heal would reach the player before the HL would land and it would be wasted time.. or we just caused HoTs to not tick or whatever the case may have been. I realize we lacked the armor buffs that shamans/priests provide but it just ended up working out for us.

EDIT: As for running 8 healers usually.. we found that lacking DPS never wiped us, lacking healing did. For Rage/Kaz'rogal/Supremus/Akama/Reliquary/Teron you can run 6-7.. but we even use 10 for Shahraz/Archimonde and sometimes 11 for Council. 9 for Illidan. We just have all spriests but maybe 1 respec holy.. as you can't cast fear ward for Archimonde in sForm anyway, and they're useless on Shahraz almost. Keep em' holy for council and they respec back for Illidan.

jusion · 08/27/07, 6:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tpyo

EDIT: As for running 8 healers usually.. we found that lacking DPS never wiped us, lacking healing did. For Rage/Kaz'rogal/Supremus/Akama/Reliquary/Teron you can run 6-7.. but we even use 10 for Shahraz/Archimonde and sometimes 11 for Council. 9 for Illidan.

Wow, that is a shit load of healing. We run 8 healers max for every fight in the game. Usually its 7. DPS isn't usually the cause of wiping, but faster DPS really shortens the time in which people can make mistakes, do stupid things, etc. :p