I think as it was stated in that thread-your numbers are skewed by the fact that you are not, in fact, chain csting 4k heals throughout a fight non-stop. There is the lesser critting FoL, or downranked HLs to consider as well.

I think for any person to determine for themselves the value of a trinket like that, look at your own WWS reports and look at your own spell selections, crit rates etc. That has all the information you need to determine what a trinket will do for you. We all probably do things slightly (or vastly) differently. Esepcially when you consider the differences in healing between tiers of content and the game changing 4pc T5 bonus.

In my own experience, I've found that Mp5, which is generally considered the option to crit, hit a soft-cap for me around 110mp5 unbuffed while casting. What I mean by that is that encounters where I chain cast and use up to the 25-30% R9 HL I can stay in mana without a shadow priest simply with buffs and pots. I think that's the line where mp5 leaves off and crit/+ heal kick in. I'm waiting on VR or Kael to drop my 4th pc of T5 where I antcipate using my first crit gem hehe (ok technically my second-but the 2.2 epic gem was too cool not to use).

Yes i calculated with max rank HoL (11) but you must take into the equation taht downranking spells make the raw +healing on trinkets (and gear) will get lesser value for the +healing.

Lets check the modifier for HoL 4:
([Level at which next higher rank of Spell is Learned] + 5) / [Character Level] = [Downranking Coefficient]

HoL 5 is learned at level 30 so the equation should be: (30+5)/70 = 0.5

So lets take a trinket with +80 healing and cast a rank 4 HoL.
+80 healing X 0.71 (cast time modifier)= 56.8 and then we take that X the downranking modifer

56.8 X 0.5 = +28.4 healing.

So basically casting a HoL 4 with +80 healing is worth +28.4healing

Now lets check that versus the [Sextant of Unstable Currents]

First the 40 Spell crit rating: It translate to 1.82 % crit.
HoL rank 4 base heal is around 333 in heal, making the crit heal go to 167 . So basically crit gives 167 extra healing.
167 x 0.0182 = 3
So totaly 40 crit rating gives +3 healing.

Every crit a Paladin does gives back 60% of the base cost of the spell.
Holy light Rank 4 costs 190 mana so 60% of that is 114.

so the math should be 114 x 0.182 = 2.1 mana / cast
And you can cast holy light every 2 secs so thats 1.05 mana per 1 sec. If we rephrase it to WoW terms it should be 5.25 Mana / 5 sec

Formula for sextant is 190*15/(45+(2T/C)) where T is cast time and C is crit. Put in the values (2 sec cast 30% crit) and you get 48

Now its get complicated. Cause im at work so i cant field test this but afaik the +190 healing is calcualted without any downranking/spellcast modifier so the true value is +48 healing.

But lets for argument put Downranking and cast time modifer on it.
+48 healing X 0.71 (castime mod) = +34 healing
Then we take the downrank in play

+34 healing X 0.5 (downrank modifier) = +17 healing

So to sum this up:[Sextant of Unstable Currents]
Gives when casting HoL 4:
+20 healing (can be as much as +51 healing)
5,25 mana / 5 sec

So basically the [Sextant of Unstable Currents] is still better whatever spell you cast.

This ofc is all TC at it best so if someone can point out the flaw in my calculations plz do so.

As mentioned by Mongoe, using R11 HL as a theorycrafting basis isn't extremely enlightening, simply because you will never be casting R11 HL non-stop throughout an entire fight. It doesn't give you the worst-case or even typical usage of the trinket.

I remember going back and looking through a few WWS of mine and determining that the crit% would be 6-12 mp5 typically, depending on the fight. I didn't calculate the +healing the crit% alone gave me (since I use a mix of R4 and R11 HL, it would be difficult to calculate based on WWS), but I imagine the +healing equivalent is not insignificant. My conclusion is that yes, [Sextant of Unstable Currents] would be a viable pally healing trinket. However, I would not take it over PewPew DPSers that want it first.


I went back and have been doing some WWS testing on the [Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal]. To my surprise, I learned that the DoT refreshes when you melee your target, not just when you judge, which is something I missed in the patch notes. Great for soloing for me, but pretty good for our Retadin. Furthermore, I've been taking a look at the HoT. On average so far, it does about 50% overhealing. However, if you divide the healing it did / number of heals I cast, it equated to about a +130 healing item considering I was casting Holy Lights. The +healing equivalent of the item depends completely on how lucky you get with the overhealing, but I would expect it to stay around that +130 healing (it was +94 healing per spell, but since it was a Holy Light, it only counts as 71% of what an item would give you. It's not 100% valid to calculate it this way, but I wanted to compare it against other trinkets).

All in all, I think the Ashtongue trinket is more useful than I originally thought. It's not game-breaking, but I would judge it to be better than [Lower City Prayerbook]. For now, I've swapped the two and will be keeping an eye on the Zeal trinket in my WWS.

A) I don't think your profile is filled out correctly.

B) this quote here is a terrible sentence that you should "plz" never do again "ofc"

Think of this post as a warning.

Sorry to hear that. I will try to refrain myself from using them ever again. May i enquire what words are ok to "shorten" ?

I read just in this thread many words that been hacked and slashed. For example pc = piece was mentioned earlier. That is ok ?

Is wtf ok ? Or do i need to speel that out correctly ?

Im guessing WTF is ok then.

Tbh (is that ok?) i understand the "plz" is not a proper word but "ofc" ? Isnt that ok ?

Sincerly yours
P.s Is latin ok ? Or do i need to write Post Scriptum

I'm going to assume that the topic of trinkets is still ok for now to keep in this thread (even though its a little off-topic, it still involves healing efficiency, right?).

Regarding the [Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal], one thing to point out from what I can see about the mechanic. It seems it would be significantly more useful in a FoL-heavy situation, because the HOT is, by comparison, a larger fraction. In addition, FoL is at least slightly faster (less so for those not rocking the 4pc T5 + haste setup), so it is more likely to proc quickly after the internal cooldown has lifted.

On another topic, I find myself swapping many trinkets depending on fights currently:

[Lower City Prayerbook]
[Scarab of the Infinite Cycle]
[Ribbon of Sacrifice]
[Essence of the Martyr]
[Tome of Fiery Redemption]
(Next clear I'll be able to get a [Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal])

Does anyone else do a lot of trinket swapping?

Another question, my guild is currently on Illidan (we just downed Council last night). I was wondering if the paladins who are farming Illidan currently had any insight as to specific advice involving gear/trinkets, assuming NO shadow priest. My armory link for my character in the panel to the left should give an accurate picture of where I currently stand. I'm kind of +healing/mp5 heavy for my gear level, and drop short on crit... basically I think I'd be pigeonholed into mostly FoL(7) with the occasional HL(5/7) to keep LG up, and a HL(11) in a pinch. Any comments/ideas?

Thanks again! You guys have been *really* helpful so far!

As would a [Memento of Tyrande], I assume? This seems like probably the single best trinket in the game for a healer (as it should be, considering where it comes from).

Back to the topic of healing efficiency, I was messing around with lower ranks of heals last night and noticed that my rank 1 flash of light was healing for over 850 with blessing of light. It surprised me since I thought it would heal for the same or less than the low ranks of holy light, but I forgot we get it at level 20. Anyway, it only costs 35 mana giving it an efficiency of almost 25 healing to 1 mana spent. Of course the heal is way to small to use under normal circumstances, but what about when you're completely out of mana, like on Mother if you get multiple sets of wicked beams late in the fight? Do you guys think it's better to wait and regen mana then use a normal heal when the MT takes damage, or spam rank 1 flash of light and slowly regen mana until your pot cooldown is up?

Rank 1 can proc Insightful Earthstorm Diamond (possibly nerfed this patch, rumors in 2.2 undocumented features), and it is a real chunk of healing. It can get WAY up there with Amp Magic.

Interesting. I'll have to give it another try and see how it is.

I find that I can go out of mana and still spam rank 5 FoL pretty much indefinitely (every five to ten casts it takes an extra tick to get the mana back, I'd estimate), but that's with ~140-150 unbuffed mp5 (up around 200-210 with a flask and normal raid buffs, and higher with oil and food buffs). Does it work out to more healing to spam anything lower than rank 5? I suppose if you're stacking spell crit instead of mp5 and you're down to 70-90 mp5 unbuffed your regen might not be able to keep up with rank 5, but I'll have to leave that up to someone else to calculate, since I haven't used rank 1 since BC came out.

Hm... well of the TK/SSC fights, I'd say Solarian (pre-nerf) is a decent hps fight, since I was usually on AM duty.

Here's a Solarian WWS from 9/15/07 with 1386 hps: link

Here's Vashj from 9/30/07 with 1258 hps: link

And my record, to date, is on Naj'entus on 9/12/07 where I was one of the only ones raid healing, with 1759 hps: link

I have no idea how those HPS numbers compare to anyone else or anything. I just thought I'd throw that out there in case it helps.

Just in case the people who scan this thread recently haven't noticed, there is a new compiled healadin thread that puts a lot of various posts together. Check it out, give feedback, and if you fee like it continue this discussion over there!

Healadin Thread

To be honest, it really don't matter that much. One of our paladins in 4/5 t5 felt like FoLing the entire Illidan encounter and somehow the flame tank he was on lived.

So... nerfed BoL means HL4 is no longer an efficient spell to use. Unfortunately, I think this means I might not use 4 piece T5 anymore.

I'm sure you can thank the other healers for upranking and saving his life. Healing the shadow tank with fol spam is quite doable, but man those flame tanks can take a beating.

Would love to see some numbers on the effect of the BoL nerf. Farewell HL4, I shall miss thee.

Oh god I hope not. The one fun thing about paladin healing is being able to crank out this 7-8k crit heals at ~1.75 speed cast time. Kind of disappointing they buff all healing classes and then hit our with the nerf bat. I don't really think it's justified to be honest, to me it seems that all the healing classes are pretty much balanced right now. Each one is better off doing certain things then the other, and I know I sure cant compete on effective healing with shaman CH, druid lifebloom and priest CoH. The only thing I know I have going for me is that when I'm on MT healing I can bust out massive fast casting holy lights to ensure our tanks stay alive.

Not only 1 big nerf, but now two. Hopefully rank 7 isn't affected much, and the t5 change isn't what we think.

A bit OT (about priests) but aren't priests having improved divine spirit going for them rather than circle of healing in most cases? After all it's a huge buff when you add up its effects on a whole raid compared to a situational aoe heal. Unless you run with more than 1 holy priest but most raid compositions I've seen being brought up on the forums as well as the possible compositions I came up with myself don't allow more than 1 holy priest in a raid, maybe 2 on a healer-heavy composition.
Blessings, chain heals and totems already make 5-6 healers, add a resto druid or 2 and that leaves room for 1-2 holy priests. However elemental shamans don't seem too common and probably will be even less after 2.3 making 3 resto shamans in a raid a good idea and even harder to squeeze a 2nd holy priest.

Hi everyone,

Do any "tank-healing-aimed-geared" pally ever made live experiment on the impact of spell haste over crit spell ?

As a MT healer, I have allways focused on Crit spell mainly, and healing power secondly. So far, I allways had tremendous results on achieving the job of two healers on a MT, thanks to the orientation of my stuff. However I have been wondering, wether spell hast is efficient over few crit spell points.

In a nutshell, do you think 10% spell hast is better than 4% crit spell, when over 80% of my healing goes to the Main Tank ?

Thanks in advance.

Short answer: not anymore.

Long answer:

The benefit of haste, just like anything else, is that you can stack a lot of it and see very good results. However, haste itself is a pretty expensive stat (just like all the ratings), but having 100 haste rating still only increases your spell cast time by about 6%, which on a 2.5s spell is .16s or so.

There are now more itemization options for haste with the 2.3 Heroic Badge items, but you give up a lot of other stats for haste. A prime example of giving up too much? [Girdle of Lordaeron's Fallen] (ilvl 141) and [Girdle of Hope] (ilvl 141). I can't see ever using the Lordaeron girdle over Girdle of Hope because you just give up way too much. Many of the other haste items are like this, too.

What made haste so very good before the patch was the fact that you could couple it with Light's Grace and the 4 piece T5 bonus (-0.25 seconds on Holy Light) to get your HL spells very close to 1.5s cast time without using too many haste items and without giving up too many other stats.

With the nerf of the 4 piece T5 bonus, however, I just don't think it's worth stacking haste at all. The only item with haste on it that I will still use is the [Blessed Band of Karabor], simply because it's ilvl 151 and just that good.

You could argue it's an itemization issue on the items that have haste, but regardless, it's just not worth it anymore.

Furthermore, haste only worsens efficiency because you're spending more mana in a shorter amount of time. What it does increase is healing/s, or your healing throughput. If you're looking to increase your efficiency, haste is not the place you want to look.

I would stick with what you're doing. Lots of crit is a great way to increase your efficiency (Illumination) and throughput (1.5x healing) at the same time.

A lot of good information here. I was actually going for haste before I found out about the nerd and got the belt from BT and a ring. But now with the tier5 nerf I am trading in the belt for the Girdle of Hope. I'm split on how to gem my gear though. I have seen tons of people gem everything in 22 healing gems and a couple all int/mp5 or crit.

My assumption with the 22 healing gem stacking is to get flash of light with the 4 piece t6 to be fairly high and use that as the primary heal where the crit would be more for spamming holy light on an MT?

I know int gets multiplied by blessing of kings but I can't see it being the #1 choice or am I missing something.