[Paladin] Healing Efficiency - Page 7

Covertghost · 09/08/07, 8:34 PM

My HLs are under 1.6s now (2.0s on ptr without light's grace!), I've forsaken FoL in raids completely, so I typically use HL5 as the substitute for FoL now.

Before I got super hasted out I never used HL5, just ranks 9,11 and max rank FoL. I just don't really understand the point of casting HL4 from a theorycrafting perspective I guess. You're saving maybe a few mp5 in efficiency, perhaps, but the level of throughput you give up is not worthwhile in my opinion.

Also, you can scale up mp5 through pots, but it's much harder to scale throughput with pots/buffs.

gospel · 09/11/07, 9:39 PM

So, I'm sitting here trying to honestly understand when to use down-ranked HLs. I already end most fights with mana to spare (regardless of not having a SP/shaman). If I have to hit the pot button once or twice I don't really see the big deal.

Are there fights (I have done 3/5HJ,3/9BT) coming up where it is "necessary" to down rank? Because, so far, I have yet to do a fight where it even crossed my mind. The only exception may have been Kaz'rogal... but he's gonna burn my mana anyways so even then it seems moot. When is it appropriate and which fights exactly.

Even Naj'entus, which I am told is one of the most difficult healing fights, didn't seem like much of a man challenge either. -> WWS Naj'entus

So, I guess I am trying to say is, is down-ranking really anything beyond theoretical? Can I get some first-hand experiences of when it was necessary?

Thanks for reading ;o

Fedondrin · 09/11/07, 9:51 PM

hey guys i could use some help figuring out the best way to optimize my healing with the low end 25man raid gear i have my armory link is The Armory
any help would be greatly appreciated as i find it hard to completely understand the numerical data

jusion · 09/11/07, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by gospel

Are there fights (I have done 3/5HJ,3/9BT) coming up where it is "necessary" to down rank? Because, so far, I have yet to do a fight where it even crossed my mind. The only exception may have been Kaz'rogal... but he's gonna burn my mana anyways so even then it seems moot. When is it appropriate and which fights exactly.

Even Naj'entus, which I am told is one of the most difficult healing fights, didn't seem like much of a man challenge either. -> WWS Naj'entus

It all just depends on what your job is, how many healers you use, how you arrange them, how your guilds' DPS is, and what rolls your tank is getting. We usually roll with 7-8 healers, and I'm usually on some sort of tank healing. Having said that, I usually need to downrank on Mother, Illidari Council, Illidan, and probably Gurtogg. Nothing else really requires it for me, but I do it just to be safe most of the time. I'd rather have some extra mana in case one of our healers die, DPS takes longer, etc. Plus, most of the time the extra healing from ranks 9 and 11 just end up as overheal. I usually stick with rank 7, upranking to 9 or 11 when the tank seems to be getting spiked, or is staying low.

EDIT: Kaz'rogal has basically no damage going around, so I usually don't even have to HL at all on that fight, even with 6 healers. Kael'thas really isn't healing intensive at all, despite being a long fight. Naj'entus really isn't bad either, there's just a lot of damage going around. Naj'entus himself really doesn't hit hard at all.

gospel · 09/12/07, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by jusion

It all just depends on what your job is, how many healers you use, how you arrange them, how your guilds' DPS is, and what rolls your tank is getting. We usually roll with 7-8 healers, and I'm usually on some sort of tank healing. Having said that, I usually need to downrank on Mother, Illidari Council, Illidan, and probably Gurtogg. Nothing else really requires it for me, but I do it just to be safe most of the time. I'd rather have some extra mana in case one of our healers die, DPS takes longer, etc. Plus, most of the time the extra healing from ranks 9 and 11 just end up as overheal. I usually stick with rank 7, upranking to 9 or 11 when the tank seems to be getting spiked, or is staying low.

EDIT: Kaz'rogal has basically no damage going around, so I usually don't even have to HL at all on that fight, even with 6 healers. Kael'thas really isn't healing intensive at all, despite being a long fight. Naj'entus really isn't bad either, there's just a lot of damage going around. Naj'entus himself really doesn't hit hard at all.

Thanks for the advice. It gives me some solid food for thought in testing out down-ranking on my own.

And, yeah, being a paladin I'm generally on MT duty. I think I just have the fortune of rolling with a lot of druids and our healing core is one of my guild's strongest attributes. Generally, my overheal even with FoL is pretty high, and I think most of it is attributed to the excelldent healers b/s myself (generally 7-8 give or take).

Nice to see I'm not the only person using blue trinkets ;/

Yilona · 09/12/07, 12:32 PM

I don't downrank specifically for efficiency because I'm running out of mana. What you use for your small heals/big heal is up to your gear, the raid makeup, the healing assignments, and the encounter, as was previously mentioned. For small heals, you can use FoL or some downranked version of HL. For big heals, it can be any of the higher ranks of HL.

When I first started creating the spreadsheet, my questions to myself were:

- Of the smaller and bigger heals available to me, which ones are the most efficient at providing the healing/s I need to keep people alive?
- How do the T5/T6 set bonuses affect what I would think is the most efficient healing (basically gut feeling vs. calculated numbers)?

I don't *worry* about running out of mana, but I would still like to stay as efficient as I can and be as prepared as I can. You never know... some fluke may happen and 3 healers may suddenly die during a 20 minute boss fight; at least then we still have a chance of succeeding because I'm (and other healers) are still in good shape mana-wise.

Using max ranks works, too, and if you find yourself not running out of mana or anything using those because of your particular healing style and your guild's healing makeup, then don't worry about it.

jusion · 09/12/07, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by gospel

Nice to see I'm not the only person using blue trinkets ;/

Yeah, we don't really have many choices there. :\ And with Mementos going for like 50+ DKP, I think I'll have blue trinkets for a while. :p

EDIT: I'm seriously contemplating using Cloak of the Illidari Council - Items - World of Warcraft over the Pure Hearted Cloak, the Illidan Cloak, or the Gurtogg Cloak.

Rating spell crit rating as 2, +healing as 1, mp5 as 2 (even 3, or 4. I don't like mp5 much at all though. I'd rather just pot and have more +healing or crit. Obviously if you value mp5 at 5, 6, or 7, the Pure Hearted Cloak comes out on top), and spell haste as .6 or below, it beats all of them. The only one that comes close is the Shroud of the Highborne. If I rate that closer to 1, its better, but I'm not totally sold on spell haste. And if I'm not stacking any of it, is there a point to have 32 spell haste lying around?

Cloak of the Illidari Council: (25 crit rating x 2) + 42 healing + 6.2 healing from int + (~4.9 crit rating from int x 2) = 107.9
Stainless Cloak of Pure Hearted = 53 healing + (7mp5 x 2) + 8.9 healing from int + (7~ crit rating from int x 2) = 89.9
Shroud of Forgiveness = 79 healing + ~8 healing from int + (7~ crit rating from int x 2) = 101
Shroud of the Highborne = (32 haste x .5) + 68 healing + 8.9 healing from int + (7~ crit rating from int x 2) = 106.9

The only way Highborne becomes better for me is if I rate haste above .6. And, again, it seems like wasted spell haste for me. I know my math is probably wrong-ish for the crit rating from int, but unless its way off, I think my assumption stands.

Wulfsblood · 09/13/07, 6:07 AM

I've got a tankadin who's currently experimenting with a 20/41/0 build to act as an offhealer in fights where he's not needed to tank. He currently has about 15.4 spellcrit and 100 mp5 in his (mainly Kara-level) healing gear. Does Illumination give decent enough returns without the later spell crit talents to make this build viable, or would I be better off just using MP5-based healing gear and using a non-illumination pure tanking build?

Yilona · 09/13/07, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by jusion

EDIT: I'm seriously contemplating using Cloak of the Illidari Council - Items - World of Warcraft over the Pure Hearted Cloak, the Illidan Cloak, or the Gurtogg Cloak.

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that they're adding a new healing cloak. I tried to find the stats/mention of it on mmo champion, but couldn't find it. I know for us, I wouldn't have any chance at the Illidari Council cloak for a long time, and Blizz may add a healing cloak with crit on it (maybe in ZA, too).

jusion · 09/13/07, 3:24 PM

Originally Posted by Yilona

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that they're adding a new healing cloak. I tried to find the stats/mention of it on mmo champion, but couldn't find it. I know for us, I wouldn't have any chance at the Illidari Council cloak for a long time, and Blizz may add a healing cloak with crit on it (maybe in ZA, too).

That would be really nice. We're kind of boned for cloaks at the moment if one doesn't want spell haste.

Yilona · 09/13/07, 3:27 PM

Pretty much. =)

Maikel · 09/13/07, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Wulfsblood

I've got a tankadin who's currently experimenting with a 20/41/0 build to act as an offhealer in fights where he's not needed to tank. He currently has about 15.4 spellcrit and 100 mp5 in his (mainly Kara-level) healing gear. Does Illumination give decent enough returns without the later spell crit talents to make this build viable, or would I be better off just using MP5-based healing gear and using a non-illumination pure tanking build?

Illumination definitely aids in healing but if your Tankadin will not be speccing further into the Holy Tree, definitely have them stack Mp5 on their healing gear. Many paladins are beginning to put a heavy emphasis on Mp5 since Illumination's nerf.

Spellsurge on whatever your paladin uses to heal with in their Main Hand could help them be more effective at endurance healing as well since I imagine they switch to healing a role on boss fights, and AE tank for trash. Maybe?

• Zurm · 09/24/07, 6:31 PM

so from my understanding of this thread, for healing there are two viable gear paths to follow?

1) High healing/mp5: This route is higher efficiency and more powerful heal, but lacks the sustained HP/S output of the next. FoL is the primary heal

2) High crit/120 haste: This way you would use 4pc t5 + 120 haste to hit 1.5 second Holy Lights (with lights grace) and down rank significantly, using the extra crit bonus to HL as your primary method of mana retention.

Using the spreadsheet on the 4-5th post down on the front page, it seems like build 1 is better for fights around the 6 minute mark or longer, while the crit build is favored for fights below that time. The issue being, however, that you can't realistically use FoL for all fights all the time (case and point: bloodboil, gorefiend, etc)

Does a hybrid of these two make sense? Anyone have any comments further? Because while looking at many end-game raiding guilds (my guild is 4/5 hyjal and 4/9 BT) I seem to see these two gear sets very frequently, but no real hybrids.

Edit: I'm working on updating the spreadsheet I'm talking about to feature the SSC/TK buff changes in 2.2. Should only be a handful of items, but if someone else is doing it I'll let them take point.

tiberion02 · 09/25/07, 8:34 AM

Your leaving out the "I have a Shadow Priest, High Healing/Spell Haste/4pcT5" set. This is particularly helpful in keeping HPS high. For a paladin, between shadow priest, manapots/trinkets and other forms of regen, I would personally prefer this setup. Almost any paladin can use very effiecent FoLs during low incoming damage, but I prefer the ability to go from a cheap, sustaining heal like 1.5sec HL4, to an expensive but high HPS 1.5sec HL9+ (makes for great MT healing if your paired up with say, a resto druid or 2).

• Zurm · 09/25/07, 9:07 AM

Well, IMO, a shadow priest changes everything. Currently, I rarely get a shadow priest as I am normally in the MT group (although on fights like gorefiend/bloodboil I do). But with a shadow priest, I do switch to HL. In the HL spam build I spoke of, even if you didn't have a shadow priest, if you had very high crit (20%+ unbuffed, before talents) you could make it work better than someone who had say 15% crit and 50 more mp5.