Rezarel

I really don't know what the behavior on the live servers is. I thought haste effects didn't lower the proc chance, but I'd never seen it tested. I think Lactose said the link he posted suggests that the PTR behavior is the same as what's on the live servers now.

 

• Intermission

Gryzemuis,

I understand that this would be a loss of procs if it is a change from live -> test, but other sources seem to imply otherwise, namely the link Lactose posted earlier.

Also, only white damage was tested, and I doubt specials would receive the same treatment in regards to updating current weapon speed when calculating proc chance.


If however, on live realms this is NOT the case, I see it to be a needed change and glad they are fixing it. Exponential scaling from one stat and linear scaling from another (or replace stat with class) is something that obviously needs to be avoided.

You seem very worried about it, might as well go to Blasted Lands on live servers and let us know :P

 

◊ songster

WoW Forums -> Haste rating changes

Recent post from someone indicating that the amount of melee haste per rating point may have been reverted back to the current live values.

Can someone hop on the PTR and check this?

Might of course be a bug in the PTR build, but it's possible they decided to nerf PPM proccing and/or put a cooldown on the the DST instead of having a blanket haste nerf. That would make a lot more sense.

 

Feles

I went to check this out and it seemed to be ~15.7 rating for 1% haste still. With 68 rating I had 4.31% passive haste on char screen.

 

Dyz

People keep posting that its changed back as an attempt to troll the forums. Its still the 15.7 for 1% on the PTR.

 

Sleepyhead

If these changes go live, it will really be the biggest pve nerf for meelee dps in the last months. Haste Rating as of its current item budget value will be crap after this, snd and every other % Haste Effect will lose efficiency. Add the Windfury Change, the DST nerf and you have a dps loss of about 200-300 at worst case.

 

galvin

Based on the testing I did on PTR with DSP using WW/MS/Slams on those mobs that never die in blasted lands the ppm for dragonspine trophy came out to 1.4ppm. This gave me a total dps of 17.11 from the trophy. Where bloodlust gives a 8.05dps increase if you use every cooldown. So DSP is still good just doesn't have the godly scaling as it does on live.

The proc rates did drop using just white attacks vs instants. Ran the test twice one just autoattack the other with instants.

 

Tyran

I did some testing on the PTR to compare:
1)white damage only
2)white damage + instant attacks without haste
3)white damage + instant attacks + Slice and Dice (35% haste from t6 setbonus)
4)white damage + Slice and Dice (using only instants where needed for combo points)

I did clearly notice an increase in proc uptime when going from white damage only to white+instant attacks (went from 13-14% to 24-25%).

Also adding Slice and Dice however did not appear to have any effect on the number of procs at all. Uptime was still around 25%. I think this would mean the proc chance for instant attacks is not affected by the current weapon speed (either normalized or base weapon speed is used), but the proc chance white damage is reduced. Otherwise I should see an actual decrease in number of procs when using haste.

The last test (white damage +35% haste, almost no instants used) produced nearly the same results as the first one again, which also means the proc chance for white damage is adjusted down when haste increases.

My tests were only about 15 minutes each so I would like to see some more before drawing conclusions though.

 

Alacrity

Can someone actually test this on live? Almost every post in this thread has the line in it "if this is not the way it is currently on live"

Anyone care to run some live tests, as to calm the masses?

 

Backpain

Lets save this rhetoric for the wow forums. Your feelings regarding rogue dps are irrelevant in a discussion that aims at analyzing and reporting factual data.

 

Rosvall

Uhm... did you have same amount off SS's in that set of time? Not including extra SS's from Combat potency, which gives more SS's in same amount of time which would mean same procs from more attacks

 

baldycenarius

This isn't a huge ton of swings, but if this helps i tried. Nothing was used but auto attack, setup was used to gain combo points for SnD in the hasted test.

 

• Vulajin

Could you tell us what speed weapon(s) were used in this test?

 

baldycenarius

yea sorry, single wielding(MH) 1.6 speed dagger

 

• Vulajin

Given that, on the non-hasted test, you had a 17.49% proc rate, equivalent to 6.56 procs per minute. On the hasted test, you had a 17.65% proc rate. If PPM are calculated relative to the base speed of the weapon, then you had 6.62 procs per minute on the hasted test. If they're calculated relative to the hasted speed, then the PPM of the proc went up to 8.60.

I don't know how statistically strong your two samples are, but if they are, then it seems that on the live servers, the proc rate is not recalculated based on the hasted speed, and therefore using hastes increased the overall number of procs per time.

 

baldycenarius

Sorry its not larger, i dont have a lot of time but wanted to contribute as much as i could. Hopefully it combined with what others find will help come to a conclusion though.

 

Lujaar

Did a test tonight on a blasted lands serveant, on both live and PTR, to compare the results. Tested for the proc rate of mongoose, enchanted on both weapons. Haste effects involved were flurry (which on a lv57 mob is almost constant 30% haste), the 2% haste from mongoose (unavoidable since I'm testing for the proc rate of mongoose) and no others. Stopped the test at 100 mongoose procs in both cases.

Live: It took 3157 swings to generate 100 mongoose procs. Proc rate 3.17%

PTR: 3120 swings to generate 100 mongoose procs. Proc rate 3.21%


(Unfortunately, I noticed about halfway through the test that my proc meter wasn't recording self-refreshes as mongoose procs, so my proc rates should have been higher in both cases. However, the same conditions were used for both tests.)


Anyway, the proc rates are almost identical. If mongoose's proc rate was decreased proportionally to the haste from flurry on PTR, and wasn't on live, we'd expect to see a sizeable difference between the two - 3% vs 4% or something like that.

I'd have to conclude that the haste from flurry and the proc from mongoose interact the same way on ptr as they do on live.

 

• Intermission

Firstly, they are not my feelings regarding rogue dps, they are my feelings regarding linear vs non-linear stat scaling. I have 2 physical dps classes, broken or imbalanced mechanics (even if temporarily advantageous) are never a good thing.

Secondly, it's an internet forum, not an encyclopedia. I'd love to see how a non-opinionated forum would work.


edit: and it seems from Lujaar's post that it is a mute issue anyway. As most of us already presumed/thought/knew(from this thread) it is already that way on live servers. For all we know it may have been this way since PPM procs existed.

 

sp00n

Well the results from Lujaar and baldycenarius contradict.

Maybe only haste procs are affected by the recalculating of PPM?

 

◊ Lactose

Sorry, why are they contradicting? They're two different tests, are they not?

baldycenarius
PPM with hastes, live server.
Result: PPM stayed constant, regardless of hastes, i.e. PPM is recalculated based on current weapon speed. Auto attacks only (i.e. we still have no clue how specials affect this).

Lujaar
Frequency of procs, live vs PTR
Result: PPM stayed the same on both. Since the same haste effects were applicable on both live and PTR (except the minor change in Mongoose haste%), PPM mechanics are the same on live and PTR.

I don't know enough about statistics to say anything regarding their sample size, or how reliable their results are, but I don't see them contradicting each other in any way.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

◊ songster

That's not what baldycenarius found. He found that proc percent stayed the same regardless of hastes, i.e. PPM is not recalculated based on current weapon speed.

Edit: We know that warrior rage generation is recalculated for current attack speed: could it be that this applies to PPM procs as well? In that case, warrior and rogue mechanics would be different on the live servers, so Lujaar's test wouldn't be comparable to baldycenarius's test.

 

suicuique

Which change?
Mongoose proc is a flat 2% haste. It has never been haste rating. As such I don't see how it would be effacted by the haste rating nerf.

Or did I miss some other changes?

 

Batory

as someone written b4 there will be no PPM mechanics change:

WoW Forums -> Slice and dice huge nerf coming

if i came out with this one totaly unrealted sorry for that. Im reading these forums only to learn, not to master

 

◊ songster

That thread is full of lose - it's just (inaccurate) reporting of this thread!

Interesting point about Combat Potency. Could someone with some quality PTR time just do a quick check that this isn't altered on the PTR?

 

◊ Lactose

Then I must be reading his screenshot incorrectly, I admit I haven't use ProcWatch enough to be 100% certain what to look for.
I'm looking at the LAST - Procs/Min, which are pretty much the same on live and PTR. Where should I be looking?


I blatantly knew this!
Sorry about that one.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max