Elitist Jerks Melee weapons seen as a special slot item

 08/29/07, 6:46 AM #1 suicuique King Hippo   suicuique Night Elf Warrior   Antonidas (EU) Melee weapons seen as a special slot item Motivated by the "arena weapons" thread in the public forum and the constant rephrasing that melee weapons are "special" for melee DPS, I'd like to estimate the worth of raw weapon DPS for the total DPS output of melee classes. Melee damage can be simplified to the following equation DMG = (WeaponDmg + APBonus)*Modifier where WeaponDmg = avg weapon damage set by the damage range of the weapon APBonus = AP/14 multiplied by weapon speed or 1.7/2.4/3.3 for (normalized) instants Modifier as a function of crit/hit/stance/talents/mob_avoidance/mob_mitigation/mob_level/... For most stats it is of no importance which slot they are allocated to. e.g. it makes no difference if 20 crit rating are assigned to your gloves, your boots or your weapon slot. All these stats (AP/crit/hit/...) is collected in a stats pool which is then incorporated into the damage calculations via the APBonus or Modifier term. The only parts which makes a weapon special (aside from special procs or such) are the weapon speed and weapon range term. For the sake of the argument lets consider weapons of same speed. The question I'd like to have answered is: How much AP is 1 DPS of raw weapon DPS worth? I.e. how much additional AP would you need to compensate a loss of 1 DPS in the weapon slot? For autoattack puposes this can be quickly computed to be 14 AP. If all you would ever do is autoattacking both of the following setups would be doing equivalent damage: a) x weapon DPS, y AP b) (x-1) weapon DPS, (y+14) AP What remains to be considered are instants. I can only state from a warrior perspective here, but most instants are based on weapon dmg, which in Blizzard terms is avg_weapon_hit + AP/14*normalized_weapon_speed. Taking away 1 raw weapon DPS would reduce this term by a value of 1*weapon_speed. Obviously adding the amount of 14 AP *(weapon_speed/normalized_weapon_speed) would balance this loss. So 1 raw weapon DPS is worth something between 14 AP and 14 AP*(weapon_speed/normalized_weapon_speed), depending on your white to yellow damage ratio and the instants used (the main instant of a fury warrior is Bloodthirst which is based on AP only). But looking at an arms specced warrior using a 3.8 mace and doing 40% white damage, a loss of 1 raw weapon DPS would be compensated by the addition of 14 AP * (0.4 + 0.6*3.8/3.3) = 15.3 AP This seems kinda low to me. A gut feeling tells me that somehow raw weapon DPS should be worth more, but I cannot find the error in this reasoning. Sure I did not value deep wound dot effects and alike, but these should not significantly alter the conclusion. While I do think that raw weapon DPS (not mistaken with weapon speed) is overvalued by most players, this value I came to is depressingly low? Thoughts? Is the special status of the weapon slot only defined by weapon type and weapon speed? I'd like to hear from rogues if their instants value raw weapon DPS that much more than warrior instants. Because the way I see it raw weapon DPS and AP are way more interchangeable than I originally thought them to be.
08/29/07, 8:48 AM   #2
MotoEisen
Glass Joe

Spinebreaker
 Originally Posted by suicideque 14 AP * (0.4 + 0.6*3.8/3.3) = 15.3 AP This seems kinda low to me. A gut feeling tells me that somehow raw weapon DPS should be worth more, but I cannot find the error in this reasoning. Sure I did not value deep wound dot effects and alike, but these should not significantly alter the conclusion. While I do think that raw weapon DPS (not mistaken with weapon speed) is overvalued by most players, this value I came to is depressingly low?
That makes a 100dps weapon the equivalent of 1530 AP. That's a pretty substantial portion of the overall AP on a melee character.

08/29/07, 9:01 AM   #3
suicuique
King Hippo

Night Elf Warrior

Antonidas (EU)
 Originally Posted by MotoEisen That makes a 100dps weapon the equivalent of 1530 AP. That's a pretty substantial portion of the overall AP on a melee character.
Oh, it certainly is. It is still by far the most important slot for melees (even more so when considering type and weapon speed).
But I had the impression that many (including me) valued a 5 dps increase in raw weapon DPS more than it converts to (roughly a 75 AP stat increase). See e.g. the different threads about S1 and S2 weapons.

 08/29/07, 10:30 AM #4 Darlal Piston Honda   Darlal Night Elf Rogue   Doomhammer Please do not make the same mistake as many people in the pvp thread are making. Do not assume balanced weapon speeds. Damage range (for a rogue at least) is the single most important stat on a weapon and seems to be pretty much completely controlled by the weapon speed (as dps seems to be a function of ilvl). According to the calculations I've seen, .1 speed is roughly = 10dps on a rogue offhand, and potentially more on a mainhand. This is the reason that the talon, despite being a good chunk of dps lower than the S2 sword, was actually better. The relative valuation of dps/speed to damage varies greatly from class to class and cannot be overlooked.
08/29/07, 11:29 AM   #5
suicuique
King Hippo

Night Elf Warrior

Antonidas (EU)
 Originally Posted by Darlal Please do not make the same mistake as many people in the pvp thread are making. Do not assume balanced weapon speeds.
I do not do this.

What I did was to assume same weapon speed so I can deduce what a single raw weapon DPS point was worth, when seen as a stat point.
e.g.
Weapon 1) 2.6 Spd, 95 dps, 20 crit, 40 AP
Weapon 2) 2.6 Spd, 98 dps, 18 crit

Which one is better?
See my motivation?

I know firsthand that weapon speed is very important for weapon selection (and I think that I did point this out explicitely in my original post). It is not that much different for warriors than for rogues.

To add something worthwhile to this response:

The example of 1 raw weapon DPS being worth 15.3 AP was strictly for 2H only.

When dualwielding you have to keep in mind that reducing the weapon DPS of an OH weapon has an impact on OH white damage only, while AP has an effect on all (at least for warrirors) damage done ... white and yellow, OH and MH.
This would greatly reduce 1 raw weapon DPS for fury OHs for example.
Quick estimations point more to a value of 3-5 AP for OHs and less than 11 for MHs (depending on weapon speed)

 08/29/07, 11:51 AM #6 Vernichter Piston Honda   Vernichter Tauren Shaman   Baelgun (EU) This seems entirely testable. Consider [Broad Axe] and [Vile Fin Battle Axe]. Swap gems such that 4 sockets have red gems with non-melee bonuses. Gather a sample with the Broad Axe. Then swap those sockets to 3 [Bold Blood Garnet] and 1 [Bold Tourmaline] and take a sample with the Vile Fin axe. If one DPS does correspond to ~ 15.3 AP for an arms warrior, as you estimate, then the two samples should be essentially identical in DPS.
08/29/07, 11:52 AM   #7
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson

Night Elf Rogue

Doomhammer
 For autoattack puposes this can be quickly computed to be 14 AP. If all you would ever do is autoattacking both of the following setups would be doing equivalent damage
This assumes you're only wielding one weapon; if you're wielding 2, as most melee DPS is, the answer is different, because AP effects both weapons while MH Weapon Damage only affects one (obviously).

As for what the actual correct value is: conveniently, the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet computes this number as an intermediary; for my gear, I get equal damage output from 1 point of MH Weapon damage and 9.2 points of AP.

08/29/07, 11:52 AM   #8
Harwin
Piston Honda

Night Elf Hunter

Mannoroth
 But looking at an arms specced warrior using a 3.8 mace and doing 40% white damage, a loss of 1 raw weapon DPS would be compensated by the addition of 14 AP * (0.4 + 0.6*3.8/3.3) = 15.3 AP
Why is this more than 14 AP?

Forgive me, I don't know Arms warriors well, but assuming you're talking about Mortal Strike/Slam, wouldn't 14 AP also be normalized 3.8->3.3? If it does an extra weapon swing, isn't the weapon swing normalized from the original 3.8 base point counting AP, at which 14 AP added 1 DPS?

In that case, assuming you were at the same weapon speed, 1 DPS <= 14 AP. It can't be more because everything that does a "weapon damage" attack counts the AP as well and everything that does a "+30% AP" doesn't count AP?

So if you had no abilities that scaled with AP directly, 1 DPS = 14 AP, and every ability that *does* scale with AP reduces that equivalency?

Or am I misunderstanding something fundamental about attacks that do "weapon damage"?

08/29/07, 12:20 PM   #9
suicuique
King Hippo

Night Elf Warrior

Antonidas (EU)
 Originally Posted by Harwin Why is this more than 14 AP? Forgive me, I don't know Arms warriors well, but assuming you're talking about Mortal Strike/Slam, wouldn't 14 AP also be normalized 3.8->3.3?
Yes it is.
AP (as in AP contribution) is normalized.

Raw Weapon DPS on the other hand is not normalized.
As such 1 point of raw weapon DPS con be worth more than 14 AP (in fact it is so in all cases which use a 2h slower than 3.3 speed).

08/29/07, 12:26 PM   #10
suicuique
King Hippo

Night Elf Warrior

Antonidas (EU)
 Originally Posted by Vernichter This seems entirely testable. Consider [Broad Axe] and [Vile Fin Battle Axe]. Swap gems such that 4 sockets have red gems with non-melee bonuses. Gather a sample with the Broad Axe. Then swap those sockets to 3 [Bold Blood Garnet] and 1 [Bold Tourmaline] and take a sample with the Vile Fin axe. If one DPS does correspond to ~ 15.3 AP for an arms warrior, as you estimate, then the two samples should be essentially identical in DPS.
Nono, the 15.3 AP value was for a warrior with a given white/yellow ratio of 40/60 and using a weapon speed of 3.8

Using a weapon speed of 3.1 and something like 50/50 white/yellow ratio would give us a value of 14*(0.5 + 0.5*3.1/3.3) = 13.6 AP

As you see weapons faster than normalized speed favour the AP side of the conversion.
While slower weapons favour the raw weapon DPS.

 08/29/07, 12:33 PM #11 Punscho Piston Honda     Edina Gnome Rogue   Ravencrest (EU) 14 ap stat wise equals 1 dps white damage. With a 4.0 weapon it equals 4 more damage per swing. With a 3.0 weapon it equals 3 more damage per swing. 14 ap stat wise equals 1 dps with _normalized speed_ for instant attacks. With a 4.0 weapon that would only be 3.3 damage. With a 3.0 weapon it would also be 3.3 damage. Consider both weapons are 100.0 dps. Consider both weapons have a flat damage range. Heavy 2-hander of theory 400-400 damage, 4.0 speed 100.0 dps "The right stuff." Soft 2-hander of less importance 300-300 damage, 3.0 speed 100.0 dps "Clearly inferior." At 1400 ap from stats you would get 100 more dps. For that 4.0 weapon that would be 400 more damage on white swings and 330 damage on instant attacks providing 800 damage per white swing (200 dps) and 730 damage on the instant attack. For the 3.0 weapon it would be 300 more damage on white swings and 330 damage on instant attacks providing 600 per white swing (200 dps) and 630 damage on instant attacks. Now, depending on the CD of the instant attack this have a variable impact on the total dps from white swings and instant attacks. But, the slow weapon clearly does more damage because of the higher average base weapon damage.
08/29/07, 12:45 PM   #12
Harwin
Piston Honda

Night Elf Hunter

Mannoroth
 Originally Posted by suicuique Yes it is. AP (as in AP contribution) is normalized. Raw Weapon DPS on the other hand is not normalized. As such 1 point of raw weapon DPS con be worth more than 14 AP (in fact it is so in all cases which use a 2h slower than 3.3 speed).
Ahh, I assumed AP was applied as 1/14th DPS before the speed normalization, not after. Thanks for clarifying.

 08/29/07, 12:46 PM #13 Darlal Piston Honda   Darlal Night Elf Rogue   Doomhammer Punscho, thank you for fleshing out the point I was trying (although not succeeding) to make earlier. DPS is an artifact of weapon speed and damage range. Damage range (average damage per hit) is probably the single most important stat, especially for any melee class with the ability to (a) increase attack speed, (b) gain extra swings, or (c) instant attack--all melee classes. Aldrianna ran the correct conversion, how much attack power is 1 average weapon damage worth at this attack speed. Given some decent models (yay rogue spreadsheet), we could graph this for each class to start to get a better understanding of the difficulties bliz. has with itemization (and why normalization and standardizing weapon speeds is a must).
08/29/07, 1:33 PM   #14
Vernichter
Piston Honda

Tauren Shaman

Baelgun (EU)
 Originally Posted by Suicidique Nono, the 15.3 AP value was for a warrior with a given white/yellow ratio of 40/60 and using a weapon speed of 3.8 Using a weapon speed of 3.1 and something like 50/50 white/yellow ratio would give us a value of 14*(0.5 + 0.5*3.1/3.3) = 13.6 AP As you see weapons faster than normalized speed favour the AP side of the conversion. While slower weapons favour the raw weapon DPS.
My apologies for the mistake, but my point remains that if your math seemed difficult to believe, testing is not hard to accomplish. Of course having said that, the math is pretty straightforward and well-known, so the testing would just be for demonstration purposes.

 08/29/07, 1:34 PM #15 Grymm Piston Honda   Grymm Dwarf Warrior   Shadowmoon There are 2 divergent ideas in this thread. One is evaluating equivalent ilvl but different speed weapons in terms of DPS/effective AP return. The other is evaluating different ilvl (dps) weapons at the same speed for dps/effective ap return. Reguarding the first, it can be highly build specific. DW Fury MH weapon speed only effects WW for raw dps. BT and Execute are not normalized or effected by weapon DPS. MS is normalized. Thus, 2 builds of the same class would vastly differentiate in weapon speed value. Slow weapon speed drives up the PPM of non-hidden CDs as it has a higher instant to white strike ratio. Rogues, on the other hand, are not CD based (no CD on SS/Evis/BS/Muti) and gain greatly from hasted/fast offhands to produce more specials through combat potentency procs - something warriors can't do. Trying to evaluate weapon speed in terms of AP is going to diverge into vastly different valuations based on build/class. Regarding the second, melee weapons have both their stat pool and dps decided entirely by ilvl. A higher DPS weapon will have a larger accessory stat pool. While class/build will still have highly divergent opinions of the value of AP/raw damage, it might be possible to compare weapons where the higher ilvl has more throw away stats. Item: Weapon X 90 DPS 3.3 spd 40 ap Weapon Y 95 DPS 3.3 spd 40 fishing skill (ZOMG!!) So a WW/MS cycle would value those as the following: WW: Weapon Y +5*3.3 damage every 10 seconds, Weapon X 40*3.3/14 every 10 MS: Weapon Y +5*3.3 damage every 6 seconds, Weapon X 40*3.3/14 every 6 Auto: Weapon Y +5 DPS, Weapon X +40/14 DPS Weapon Y +9.4 DPS, Weapon X +5.37 DPS 70 AP would equate to 5 DPS which drops directly back down to 14 DPS/AP. Differing the speeds would differentiate from this with slower weapons being worth more AP, but 14 AP or there abouts is the pivot point occuring at the normalization speed.

 Elitist Jerks Melee weapons seen as a special slot item