Quick question about 1 roll or 2 roll system for casters

maxi · 09/07/07, 8:46 AM

Just want to clear up something quickly, has it been confirmed if casters operate on 1 roll system or 2 roll system?

In particular, i am wondering if hit% affect my crit% over all spells

vyedma · 09/07/07, 10:18 AM

As far as I know nothing has been proven one way or the other.

Vhad · 09/07/07, 10:22 AM

Some Nihilum Mage got a GM to hint at it being 2 roll system if I'm not completely mistaken.

dfinberg · 09/07/07, 11:30 AM

I'm inactive now, but this should be very easy to clear up if you can get your hands on a mage a 3 levels or so below dr. boom. Just stack lots of +crit, and no +hit and go play.

PSGarak · 09/07/07, 1:14 PM

I really wouldn't trust anything in-game GM's say about advanced game mechanics.

We do know that partial resist is a separate roll than hit/crit/miss, but I'm guessing you're wondering if hit/crit are done in the same roll or not. I always assume they are for modeling but I could be wrong.

Leveret · 09/07/07, 1:25 PM

I don't think it is possible to conclusively test for one system or another at this point. Tests have been done to show that when crit chance is the same or exceeding hit chance, the caster is still getting non-crit hits. While this seems to indicate a two-roll system, it is not really conclusive. It is possible that something else happens when crit chance approaches hit chance, thus a non-linear pattern is observed.

Queuetip · 09/07/07, 4:45 PM

It seems logical to be 2 roll. If you have 90% chance to hit, and 25% chance to crit, technically it would mean 25% of the 90% of casts to be crits which is greater than 25%. Now if the crit chance were for ALL casts, including the 10% misses, then crit chance would still be 25% in which case I don't see a need for knowing this fact or not.

Leveret · 09/08/07, 12:51 AM

On second thought, it would probably be very easy to test for the effect of a two-roll system given a high crit chance and a low hit chance. The one-roll theory and two-roll theory would separate into two very different ranges of expected values for the crit chance, and you would just have to do enough tests to see within which expected value range the actual crit chance falls. I assume this test has been done already, does anyone know where I can find it?

Krevan · 09/08/07, 1:02 AM

Originally Posted by Leveret

On second thought, it would probably be very easy to test for the effect of a two-roll system given a high crit chance and a low hit chance. The one-roll theory and two-roll theory would separate into two very different ranges of expected values for the crit chance, and you would just have to do enough tests to see within which expected value range the actual crit chance falls. I assume this test has been done already, does anyone know where I can find it?

You would have to find a target 3 levels above you. Like someone already mentioned (I think) it would be very easy to do with a 65 mage and Dr.Boom.

Leveret · 09/08/07, 1:28 AM

This seems like such an obvious test that it must have already been done. Can I find the results somewhere around here?

chase · 09/08/07, 3:57 AM

Why limit yourself to +3 levels. Why not +10 or +15? Your miss rate doesn't ceiling at 17%, just boss mobs are at +3.

From the blue post about +hit:
If your target is the same level as you, a spell has a base chance to hit of 96%.

If the target is +1 level compared to you: 95%

+2 levels: 94%

+3 levels: 83% if the target is a mob, 87% if the target is a player.

+4 levels: mob: 72% player: 80%

+5 levels: mob: 61% player: 73%

Etc...

Get a high enough level mob and a high enough crit rating if you connect and it is not a crit than it isn't the one roll system.

• frmorrison · 09/08/07, 10:06 AM

It was proven that Rogues use a 2 roll system (in Nax in WoW 1.0). It is very likely that all dps classes use a 2 roll system, since it seems silly to me that only one class would use a different roll system.

Leveret · 09/08/07, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

It was proven that Rogues use a 2 roll system (in Nax in WoW 1.0). It is very likely that all dps classes use a 2 roll system, since it seems silly to me that only one class would use a different roll system.

Rogue special attacks use a 2 roll system. Everyone's white melee attacks use a single roll system. The question is, do spells behave like white attacks or special attacks?

chase · 09/08/07, 10:52 PM

Test:
Get a mob +9 levels greater than you.* (preferably with someone to hold its attention)
At +9 levels your hit chance works out to be -5%. I'm guessing there is floor in there so that you always have 1% chance to hit.

Attack the mob with 0 +hit

If at any point you connect with a spell and it is not a crit than we are working on a two roll system.

*Using the blue post and infering a linear relationship, for every level over +3 of yours the mob gains an 11% chance for you to miss. Extrapolate that down the line and that is where I came up with +9 levels. (Anything greater than +9 would work, just +9 is the minimum.)

From the tests I saw in the Naxx type days, spells are on a two roll system.
Roll 1) Hit or Miss (Binary spells resistance tossed into the mix here)
Roll 2) Crit or non-crit
Roll 3) If direct damage spell, roll for partial. (time of impact) 0%/25%/50%/100%

Almost convinced roll 3 happens on the "client" side. If a mob is firing at you and you resist it, the resistance message isn't shown until the spell lands. In other words, I don't think this happens until the decrement health stage of calculations.

Leveret · 09/08/07, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by chase

At +9 levels your hit chance works out to be -5%.

*Using the blue post and infering a linear relationship, for every level over +3 of yours the mob gains an 11% chance for you to miss. Extrapolate that down the line and that is where I came up with +9 levels. (Anything greater than +9 would work, just +9 is the minimum.)

Check your math.