Protection warrior: Stamina VS mitigation - Page 10

Jamor · 11/08/07, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Smooglab

I'm getting rather bored with all the stamina vs. mitigation discussions, simply because, there is no right answers. There's 3 sorts of encounters basicly. There's encounters that require a large HP-pool (let's say 50% of the encounters), there's ones that require avoidance gear (<10% of the encounters, if not phases) and the remaining encounters are discussable of what set is preferred above the other.

Now an interesting discussion would be about those remaining 40%, to see on which boss stacking up a certain amount of mitigation doesn't get your rage-starved but also doesn't get you too low HP so you can get burst down. The problem you see now is people either saying "in x fight you x amount of HP or you get oneshotted" or otherwise "more avoidance equals more mana for healers!". Obviously both parties are right, but that's because then you take tanking, or itemization for that matter, in a too broad way.

I agree with this assessment -- there are not "right" answers to this. Work with your healers to figure out what they prefer, and try out different scenarios. The important thing to remember is there isn't a lot of leeway one way or the other. All the gear is pretty similar. You get to tune it out a bit. Either way will not make or break your raid (unless it was a fight like Kael where you need "X" to survive an attack)

My "standard" tank setup favors Armor, Stamina, Shield Block Value -- my opinion is that it's a great buffer, and allows me enough rage to do whatever I need. My healers tend to like that setup as well, as it gives an extra 'oh shit' buffer. A lot of times I am getting heals whether I dodge or not, might as well use them...your mileage may vary

Satrina · 11/10/07, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Combat log timers do seem to be extremely messed up.

There are no guarantees that the order of things in the combat log is the order of actual events (multithreading at the server end, network latency, other reasons). That's been stated many times by Slouken (the UI development lead). Anything that times with a precision of better than one second is an amusing affectation, and nothing more.

Carlos · 11/10/07, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by Jamor

I agree with this assessment -- there are not "right" answers to this. Work with your healers to figure out what they prefer, and try out different scenarios. The important thing to remember is there isn't a lot of leeway one way or the other. All the gear is pretty similar. You get to tune it out a bit. Either way will not make or break your raid (unless it was a fight like Kael where you need "X" to survive an attack)

My "standard" tank setup favors Armor, Stamina, Shield Block Value -- my opinion is that it's a great buffer, and allows me enough rage to do whatever I need. My healers tend to like that setup as well, as it gives an extra 'oh shit' buffer. A lot of times I am getting heals whether I dodge or not, might as well use them...your mileage may vary

I must say in the end, when equipment is not the limiting factor anymore, than you will be fine with the most avoidance by a similar amount of Stamina. If you want to rush from one guild firstkill to the next and push 1 or 2 dedicated MTs than you probably need the Stamina guys to kill the next boss. When the MT has everything from the instance thanhe probably can go for avoidance without any trouble.

The situation in the firstkill thing is that the raw damage before avoidance has a higher probility to kill a low HP tank even with a lot of Stamina. When the equipment of the MT is well above the necessary to not being instagib, than you can easily throw some more avoidance against it.

Thiaril · 11/16/07, 4:26 AM

Wasn't sure if a new thread would be a good idea for this, but I thought it could fit in this discussion. Forgive me if it isn't the case.

Checking the loot from Zul'Aman and badges, there seem to be more and more items without defence on them, or less than other pieces than you're wearing. Anyone else afraid of not useable upgrades because you won't stay above 490 without the item you're wearing at that moment?

Here are some items (mostly Karazhan items, our guild isn't very succesful in 25 men yet) that I'm wearing at the moment but might not be upgradeable because of the defence minimum. (no more room for pure stamina socketing?

)

Bulwark of the Amani Empire - Items - World of Warcraft (Zul'Aman shield) versus Shield of Impenetrable Darkness - Items - World of Warcraft (Nightbanes shield)

Battleworn Tuskguard - Items - World of Warcraft (Zul'Aman chest) versus Panzar'Thar Breastplate - Items - World of Warcraft (Nightbanes chest)

Other items, like the Ring from the Timed Event, the Axe from Zul'Jin, they all lack defence (compared to King's Defender, Rings from Shade/Reputation). Also the Necklace from the Badges of Justice lacks defence, the Gloves from Badges...

Some people were happy about this change, no more ''wasted'' itembudgets, but isn't it a bit over the top? Do we've to give up stacking Stamina gems, or stick to some blue trinket with 30 defence rating?

galzohar · 11/16/07, 9:37 AM

Possibly with the new ZA items you'll have to calculate items differently, just like DPS classes need to "reach the hit cap" and get the hit rating in a way that will gimp other stats the least, tanks might have to do the same with defense to stay above the 490 since it could actually be possible to drop below it with the new gear. This is very complicated btw as it really depends on what items you have available, but the main idea is setting a stamina:defense value, seeing if going by that value gives you enough defense or not (or too much) and adjust your value until you're just over the 490 defense. Of course when your item selection isn't so big it gets more simple

Krennick · 11/16/07, 9:40 AM

At first glance I also worried about defense. Thinking about it I worry less and less, though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not so that if I have a combined 50% miss/dodge/parry and a fixed 55% shield block then even if I sit at 350 defense, I can never be critted?

As in, the crush immune set is also crit immune, with or without defense.

Haven't done any experiments yet, and still somewhat off in gear terms to be able to.

I like the way they don't provide enough defense. As long as you're not crush immune (assuming it works as I just said) getting the best gear that still allows you to be crit immune actually becomes an interesting exercise with meaningful tradeoffs.

galzohar · 11/16/07, 10:31 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not so that if I have a combined 50% miss/dodge/parry and a fixed 55% shield block then even if I sit at 350 defense, I can never be critted?

As long as shield block is up, yes, but when your shield block fails getting crit isntead of crushed would be a very, very bad thing, and likely negate all those extra HPs you stacked...

Fellwraith · 11/16/07, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Krennick

As in, the crush immune set is also crit immune, with or without defense.

I think this statement is correct according to everything I've read. However, you really shouldn't be gunning for crush immune and neglecting defense.

Defense is the second most efficient stat for becoming crush immune (most efficient being block rating), and the second most efficient "pure avoidance" stat (as in, you take 0 damage regardles of the incoming total). Unless you somehow find a way to stack block rating to ridiculous levels across multiple items, you're probably sacrificing HP and AC to be crush/crit immune.

Per point of rating -
Dodge = 0.053% avoidance
Defense = 0.050% avoidance + 0.0167% chance to block = 0.067% toward "crush avoidance"
Parry Rating = 0.045% avoidance
Block Rating = 0 avoidance, 0.127% toward "crush avoidance"

2.4 defense rating = 1 defense = 0.04% to dodge, 0.04% to parry, 0.04% to miss, 0.04% to block in addition to reducing your chance to be crit by 0.04% up to 490 total defense. It's not like you get nothing for having over 490 defense.

Carlos · 11/19/07, 5:12 AM

Never forget a crush is only 150% damage, a crit is 200% damage so whenever you try to be crushing immune you should first be crit immune. When someone wants to be crush immune only to be lazy with shield block than you should not play a tank.

Satrina · 11/19/07, 10:35 AM

Yes, you are crit immune when you are crush immune (102.4% dodge + parry + block + mob miss). Most warriors are only Shield Block uncrushable, though, so if you miss Shield Block for whatever reason, you will likely get crits. Even if you are passively uncrushable, if you are stunned, attacked from behind, disarmed, immobilised (e.g. karathress iceblock), you will lose some or all of those elements and will most likely be subject to critical hits again as well as crushing blows.