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Old 10/15/07, 1:06 PM   #46
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Another example for armor adjustability is the felsteel set which has generally more armor than other blues you'll find in instances. Yeah there's not much adjustability in how much armor you have but it exists, and it's a good idea to get it where possible.

If armor would be more adjustable it would be an insteresting discussion to see what's the breakpoint of armor vs stamina, as in terms of effective HP if X armor = Y stamina then X armor is always better for protection as it reduces healing needed (although worse for threat due to rage, although not such an issue as it doesn't come in random streaks like avoidance). The problem comes when you can just 1% more effective HP via armor VS 1.1% more effective HP via stamina or something of that sort.
Currently in the game you don't really have to make such choices though except maybe with the armor kits for gloves (hadn't done the math about that one) and/or maybe something else I've missed.

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Old 10/15/07, 1:17 PM   #47
Uglesh
Piston Honda
 
Orc Warrior
 
Bonechewer
Sadly the reality is that the Gear pool is just WAY too shallow for much variation to occur. Tanks at equal progression will generally not vary any substancial amount to allow you to say one is definitively better then the other.
While gems provide minor customization, what it has really done is allow people to stack more stamina to help minimize the "insta-gib" factor that many bosses have.

Wouldn't it be nice to have several sets to choose from with a variety of neat set bonuses?? Instead we are all stuck with the same 1-2 items that are minor upgrades or simple sidegrades.

I know Blizz probably prefers to keep it this way because it makes balancing easier then if there was 10 times the amount of armour to select from... but a guy can dream right?

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Old 10/15/07, 1:21 PM   #48
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Also forgot to mention the obvious fact that armor is completely useless for magic damage which changes things when magic damage is involved, and how it changes things depends quite a bit on how the fight is designed.

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Old 10/15/07, 1:45 PM   #49
Jamor
Don Flamenco
 
Jamor's Avatar
 
Human Warrior
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Dots View Post
This is quite important. A lot of people talk about how mitigation and stamina are better than avoidance, but not many consider the trade-offs. I would never use a dodge or defense gem over +15 stamina unless there is a really good socket bonus to get, but I'll gladly take 0.5% dodge (and 0.45% crit) over 8 stamina. For the same reason, I would never put a ZG enchant instead of Glyph of the Defender on a tank helm, which quite a few warriors seem to be doing.
As Xerophyte said, +2% threat instead of 8 stamina on gloves is one of the best trade-offs you can make for threat gear.
I just wanted to give another "I agree completely with this guy" post. 2% threat to gloves is by far the best threat vs. stam vs. avoidance trade-off you can make.

I plan on leaving it on all of my gloves. I currently tank with T6, but when the patch comes, I plan on switching to the Enforcement.


As far as the mitigation/HP buffer vs. Avoidance debate, I think the correct answer is that you need to communicate with your healers and find out what they prefer. But ultimately you need to have differant sets of gear to be able to do any.

A good example of this is trinkets. There are 4 fairly common trinkets and each one has an advantabe. Darkmoon card, Autoblocker, Shadowmoon, Scarab.

I rotate all of them depending on if I need threat (Autoblocker and Darkmoon) vs. Avoidance (Scarab and Shadowmoon) or a nice balance (autoblocker and shadowmoon)

I do gem almost all stamina, but at the T6 level, you can easily get enough avoidance to stack stamina gems because of the large amount of both stam and avoidance on the gear.

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Old 10/31/07, 1:24 PM   #50
Amesarius
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Stonemaul
Thought I'd hijack this thread for a moment to ask a concern that was brought up by one of our tanks. They just recently got Shield of Impenetrable Darkness, before they had Crest of Sha'tar. The concern that was brought up, were the small upgrades in some stats worth the loss in health. I think the overall upgrade is, but I wanted to get a second opinion. Below are the stat upgrades by going to the new shield.

+407 Armor
+33 Block
+9 Defense

Health Loss is 194.

Thanks for the input!!

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Old 10/31/07, 2:10 PM   #51
Vohbo
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Aggramar (EU)
It is a bit difficult to calculate, but using both Shadowmoon Insignia and Autoblocker is compromising both your threat and you survivability, since you sacrifice 600 (or 1200) health to gain minimal threat and leave yourself open to both good and bad avoidance streaks.

An autoblocker adds about 61 damage per shield slam, or 269 when activated (taking 20 % mitigation as mob armor). That means you add 22.3 tps by wearing it.
This means that if you miss as little as 3 heroic strikes per minute due to taking in less rage, you have already lost this advantage.
There is not a single fight in the game for which I could justify such a build. Either you take a load of damage so that rage is a non issue, like say Shahraz or Illidan, or you need threat, like for example on Kaz'rogal or Reliquary.
Even worse is when you face a boss that adds elemental damage, which means a burst is reduced to hit/hit/nuke rather than hit/hit/hit, greatly increasing the value of stamina again.

The point of the leatherworking patch on gloves is good of course, but in large part due to the attached level of the enchant. 15 agi vs 8 sta is never a good deal, but if it were done properly it would be 15 agi vs 22-23 sta, and that would take some more consideration.

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Old 10/31/07, 2:56 PM   #52
rayijin
Piston Honda
 
rayijin's Avatar
 
Tauren Warrior
 
The Venture Co
There is a new armor patch coming out that gives 240 armor in 2.3:

[Glove Reinforcements]

There will also be a +10 stamina armor patch.

My thoughts on tank gearing are, shoot for enough stamina/block value/armor to survive any spike, then start thinking about going for well-done socket bonuses/enchants to avoid damage (for instance, +12 def to bracers is a great tradeoff compared to a defense gem vs stam gem).

Originally Posted by Amesarius View Post
Thought I'd hijack this thread for a moment to ask a concern that was brought up by one of our tanks. They just recently got Shield of Impenetrable Darkness, before they had Crest of Sha'tar. The concern that was brought up, were the small upgrades in some stats worth the loss in health. I think the overall upgrade is, but I wanted to get a second opinion. Below are the stat upgrades by going to the new shield.

+407 Armor
+33 Block
+9 Defense

Health Loss is 194.
It's an upgrade. I put together an effective health chart some time ago and around the ~20k hp/16k armor buffed (no inspiration) mark, ~19 armor = 1 stamina.

Block value is basically stamina as well - lets say you can take 3 hits without heals and you block 2 of those in a worst case scenario - then the 33 block value is equal to an extra 66 points of health. Depends on boss obviously, or if the boss can stun you.

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Old 10/31/07, 3:35 PM   #53
Amesarius
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Stonemaul
Thanks for the input Ray. I thought I had remembered a thread about that at one point...couldn't find anything though.

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Old 10/31/07, 3:54 PM   #54
Eylirria
Piston Honda
 
Pandaren Mage
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by Amesarius View Post
Thought I'd hijack this thread for a moment to ask a concern that was brought up by one of our tanks. They just recently got Shield of Impenetrable Darkness, before they had Crest of Sha'tar. The concern that was brought up, were the small upgrades in some stats worth the loss in health. I think the overall upgrade is, but I wanted to get a second opinion. Below are the stat upgrades by going to the new shield.

+407 Armor
+33 Block
+9 Defense

Health Loss is 194.

Thanks for the input!!
It's an upgrade.

You should tell that tank that hitpoints are relative.

This is how I evaluate tanking gear, and while I'm no authority on this, it's all mostly based on advice posted and hashed out here at EJ.

Figure out what is the worst case scenario on a fight, stars and planets aligning, that unlucky parry in the mix, what is the absolute worst kind of punishment your tank will have to deal with?

Then after you've worked that out, you counter it with the the only two factors that are ALWAYS present and not subject to the luck of the draw: Raw Stamina and Mitigation (read: Armor -- block value/block rating for purposes of dealing with absolute worst scenarios cannot come into play unless you are working on a specific scenario where you are passively immune to crushes, and no one single attack from the boss ever gets through without suffering some sort of modification other than just armor. Therefore, for simplicity sake, *don't* take block value/rating into account for this.). These two will never fail you, they will never screw you over because of the RNG (assuming that you obviously did work the worst case scenario properly)

At this point I like to say that the tank is now "burst immune" against the boss you will be up against. I define "Burst Immune" as having enough stamina/armor so that no matter what happens, your healers, and you, will have enough time to react and either make a save, or crank up the healing for a second to catch back up.

Now that you can survive the absolute worst, against all odds, you figure out how to get the most out of your health pool, and this is when avoidance (parry/dodge mostly) will come into play. Technically, there's nothing more friendly to your healers' mana pools than you not taking damage at times, whether or not avoidance can throw off a healer with a not so great attention span or not shouldn't be discussed here, if 50% of what the boss throws at you is being brushed off without harming you, voila, you're living twice as long, so you're getting more out of your HP than meets the eye. This I call increasing your "Effective HP"

Burst Immune -- check
Maximizing "Effective HP" -- check

Add gear to increase threat generation as needed so that your DPS isn't capped. If you can't get to this TPS threshold, analyze the encounter and see if it's feasible to ask your DPSers to just slow down some where needed, if it isn't, my advice is you cut into your Effective HP, as it is often much easier and SAFER to ask your healers to squeeze in the extra healing, than cutting into your burst immunity and playing russian roulette with your entire raid everytime the stars and planets align.

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Old 10/31/07, 4:49 PM   #55
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
While I agree with the general premise that stacking HP/Armor is a good way to increase survivability, I do think that you are underestimating the value of passive uncrushability. The worst-case scenario for a tank that is not passively uncrushable involves getting hit at least 3 times in a row (in most cases), whereupon the first two hits eat your shield block charges leaving a very good chance of suffering block/block/crushing combos. By becoming passively uncrushable, you do give up some armor and stamina, but your "worst case scenario" is now about 15% less bad.

This, admittedly, as some adverse effects on rage generation (or so I've been told by my guild's MT), but unless your DPS is threat-capping regularly, I would argue that it's at least worth investigating if you can reasonably put together a decent crush-immune set. If you can't, of course, the above advice re: sta/armor is certainly the way to go. But if you can, it's defenitely worth considering.

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Old 10/31/07, 8:32 PM   #56
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Wouldn't you need to lose great amounts of stamina to actually get enough avoidance to knock crushes off the table without shield block though?

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Old 10/31/07, 8:51 PM   #57
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
You do lose some stamina, to be sure; the trick is that you generally get to crush-immune by stacking block, which is a reasonably cheap stat in terms of item budget. Hence, it is possible to become crush-immune without losing *too* many other stats; in particular, your effective HP (HP adjusted by your mitigation) tends not to drop by more than the 15% benefit you gain by never getting crushed.

For a more in-depth analysis of this problem, I recommend swinging by this thread: [Warrior] Passive Crushing Immunity. It's only 2 pages long so is probably worth your time to read it in it's entirety if this is a subject your interested in; however, if you want to cut to the heart of the matter, post 32 has a straight up comparison between the optimal sta/mitigation set and a pretty good crush immune set, and post 39 has the best overall and best pre-Kael uncrushable sets I could come up with.

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Old 10/31/07, 9:16 PM   #58
Tatari
Glass Joe
 
Tatari's Avatar
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Akama
From personal experience, I had a much easier time main-tanking in SSC and Tempest Keep stacking stamina. Of course, there are some exceptions, such as Solarian and Leotheras where I subbed out some gear and focused more on damage or burst threat. The only times I didn't have a Solid Star of Elune in any slot was when the set bonus was stamina itself.

If I remember correctly I didn't have too much avoidance (maybe 20% dodge 18% parry?) through all of SSC and I was fine. It allowed my guild to kill Morogrim, Vashj, and Karathress' fucking shaman pal with fewer headaches than we would've had otherwise. As I see it, the avoidance you need in later encounters comes from the gear you pick up as you move closer to them, and at the same time these items continue to increase your stamina, solving a lot of gear-choice problems. However, I essentially stopped raiding in August so my post-Shade of Akama knowledge is quite limited.

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Old 10/31/07, 9:46 PM   #59
Caesar
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Moonglade (EU)
I have long thought what provides the highest survivability, avoidance or stamina.

Someone stacking stamina will take more damage, but had a bigger buffer. so stacking enough healing and it should be fine, was for long my conclusion. So to test this I made a simulator. basic setup was that there was a mob hitting, and a tank with dodge, block and parry and miss rating (taken from our MT buffed profile and WWS logs). I then modelled the mob did a 4000-6000 magical damage attack every 30th second (not avoidable). I modelled earthshield ticks, lifebloom ticks, flash spamming and a NS emergency heal available every 20th second. the emergency heal also had a 5% chance not to trigger. The MT was also assumed to use Shieldblock every 5th second.

Basically pretty close to what I consider a real raid MT healing situation.

All numbers where derived from WWS data.

the sucess probability I got from 1000 simulated fights with the numbers I put in, gave me about 95% chance of success. I tested adjusting some numbers and it seem pretty spot on.

Anyways what I found was that increasin dodge rating was more efficent than hp in respect to itembudget (ie 10 dodgerating = 15 stamina).

A closer examination showed many (not all of the death happned like this):

3 hits in under 5 second makes the charges on the SB to go resulting in a crushing blov, coinciding with a concurrent magical attack = death.


lets assume the tank uses SB every 5th second and has 68% avoidance, and the mob has an attackspeed of 1.66 (3 strikes in 5 sec) probability for 2 attacks to remove the SB is then 10.24%.

a tank with 3.5% higher avoidance (100 stamina equivalent) has a probability of 8.12%.

the tank with 68% avoidance has thus 25% more crushing blows!

if we assume crushing blows + special attack is the major threat to tank death (rather than lots of damage spread out over time, but that requires more healing rather than a better geared tank). we will get in to a lot more (25% more) dangerous situations, each situation is less dangerous though. according to my simulations it was better to have less of those dangerous situations than having more and a better chance of survivng them.

I absolutely don't want to say this is conclusive in any way, I did this at 3 o click in the morning very tired, but I do think avoidance and SB loss should be considered more. An perhaps stacking stamina is slightly too empazised.

good night

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Old 10/31/07, 10:02 PM   #60
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
While more avoidance will definitely reduce the amount of times your shield block wears off before it cools down, reducing your stamina will reduce the chance to survive it when it happens. The question is how realistic your model was regarding how healers handle that burst - I can't really see your model but you should look at possible ways for healing to actually be able to overcome this block-block-crush-magic combo.

Also did you model boss parrying? afaik that's one of the bigger causes for shield block wearing off and the tank getting crushed, not to mention that the crushing attack also hits before a non-parry attack would've happened.

Also you could model the passive crush immunity set and see if it has increased or reduced chances at surviving... But then again you really need to make sure your healing model is realistic.

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