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Old 03/04/08, 4:01 AM   #251
Brachamul
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Eitrigg (EU)
Originally Posted by Tasonir View Post
Also, brach, your numbers seem a bit higher than most others. You said this is gear you have already - does your character screen show the 94.2% dodge? Or is that 94.2% dodge + miss, which is more reasonable, but still seems high? 90defense skill (not rating) seems like a LOT of defense for a druid to be using for this kind of setup. What defense pieces are you wearing/planning to wear?
94.2% is total avoidance i meant, not dodge only. It includes missrate, scorpid and swarm. I'm essentially planning on wearing what is linked in the lootzor I showed. Defense comes out quite often actually. I did mean 90 rating though, which comes out at 1.5% miss and 1.5% dodge.

Swarm does not stack with itself unfortunately.

So if Illidan Dual wields, he has a base 19% + 5% chance to miss right? To which we can add scorpid + swarm, bringing his base chance to miss to 31%.

So if I'm not mistaken, with a total 69% extra avoidance, I can tank Illidan without ever being hit? I don't think my guild will refuse if I ask to tank him.

Last edited by Brachamul : 03/04/08 at 4:21 AM.

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Old 03/04/08, 4:18 AM   #252
Brachamul
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Eitrigg (EU)
Double post.

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Old 03/04/08, 7:13 AM   #253
koaschten
In the rear with the gear!
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Auchindoun (EU)
A quick glance at our 2 latest WWS reports for Illidan revealed that Illidan missed an average of 13% on our Maintank with his Melee Attacks.

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Old 03/04/08, 8:35 AM   #254
zork
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Warrior
 
Eredar (EU)
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
A quick glance at our 2 latest WWS reports for Illidan revealed that Illidan missed an average of 13% on our Maintank with his Melee Attacks.
Wait a second, you know that the MISS from WWS by default includes miss, dodge and parry?
I would guess no, since this value is way to high for miss only.


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Old 03/04/08, 12:41 PM   #255
SeanDamnit
Piston Honda
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by zork View Post
Wait a second, you know that the MISS from WWS by default includes miss, dodge and parry?
I would guess no, since this value is way to high for miss only.
When you click on the "Melee" row you can see a breakdown of the avoidence stats. 13% looks like a reasonable amount for a non-dual wielding boss assuming the MT is well geared.

Edit: I've been browsing through WWS for Illidan, and it looks like most of his miss-rates are around 12-13%. I beleive we need to rethink whether or not Illidan is considered a dual-wielding mob.

Last edited by SeanDamnit : 03/04/08 at 12:48 PM.

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Old 03/04/08, 3:16 PM   #256
Kalman
Super Macho Man
 
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Orc Shaman
 
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Originally Posted by zork View Post
Wait a second, you know that the MISS from WWS by default includes miss, dodge and parry?
I would guess no, since this value is way to high for miss only.
Our last Illidan was 11% miss (miss, not dodge/parry). It isn't too high, because defense also increases miss rate at 0.04/point; expected miss rate for a crit capped warrior would be ~10%, higher if they wear >490 defense, which isn't that unusual. FtH may also use one of the miss-increasing debuffs.

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Old 03/04/08, 3:19 PM   #257
• Chicken
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Ginakursia
Goblin Warlock
 
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I think Illidan either doesn't count as dual wielding, or he effectively has a bunch of +hit. Shear is probably the only example of a mob special that can be dodged, parried or blocked but can't miss, and while that could be limited to Shear, his miss rate seems low enough to carry through to a generic hit rate increase.

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Old 03/06/08, 1:58 AM   #258
Tasonir
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
Hmmm. If Illidan's hit rate is increased such that he doesn't suffer the penalty, I'm much further away from doing it than I thought. If he had the standard 24% or so DW miss rate, I'd already be able to do it. Tonight I put on my full dodge gear, an agil potion/food, although no agility scroll, for Veras. He's the rogue on the Illidari council.

Full dodge gear drops me down to around 22k armor (vs 33k in normal gear) and about 2200 less hp. That said, he rarely hit me more than once per vanish with the exception of moving him around. Most of the time picking him and moving him he'll get a shot at what's technically considered your back, so keep that in mind if you're going to try this. I warned my healer ahead of time, I recommend you do as well.

Edit: Our usual WWS poster had connection issues, and someone else posted WWS in his place. But they posted just their log, without collecting other player's...and I'm not even listed as being in the raid for council. I'll see if I can get logs collected and repost a WWS that shows I exist.

In the mean time, I ran a stand alone parser on just my log. The parser is a rather old program and I'm not entirely sure of its accuracy, but here goes:

205 melee swings:
9 hits
1 crit (I was using the 30 resilence elixir, but I suppose I was shorter on defense than I thought)
54 misses (26.34%)
130 dodges (63.41%)
3 parries (This is why I'm a bit confused about the accuracy - I think it would count absorbed hits as a parry, but I don't remember any shields and most of his hits should go through a PW:Shield at least partially. Especially on 22k armor; my healer was a paladin, so no buffs there.)
It also lists "immune" for 8 hits. Go figure.

Of the 205 swings, the average damage taken was 207. Pretty sweet. 4.88% hits+crits taken.


Random thought: [Embrace of the Dawn] was linked earlier with the suggestion a party member could use it. Can you use it yourself, then switch the necklace off, and keep the buff? A more reasonable way to get the 10 agility if so, I don't think many people will want to give up their neck slot for you. I may have to buy the pattern for my JCing alt.

Edit 3: Update: WWS uploaded again, fixed.

WWS

That link goes directly to the hits taken during council. The crit only hit for 4.6k; it was from his offhand, so lucky there.
12 hits over the entire fight, and I was dazed once, so a fair amount of those were from being behind him.

This is a viable raid build, although highly situational, of course. My gloves, chest and legs are all very low avoidance: tier 5 legs/chest, tier 6 gloves. Chest has 1 agility gem, 2 stamina, gloves/legs have 5agil/7stamina gems. Looking forward to upgrading those for a more or less complete set.

Last edited by Tasonir : 03/06/08 at 7:49 PM.

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Old 03/06/08, 8:30 AM   #259
Mideci
Great Tiger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Tasonir View Post
Random thought: [Embrace of the Dawn] was linked earlier with the suggestion a party member could use it. Can you use it yourself, then switch the necklace off, and keep the buff? A more reasonable way to get the 10 agility if so, I don't think many people will want to give up their neck slot for you. I may have to buy the pattern for my JCing alt.
.
Once you remove it, the buff goes away.

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Old 03/06/08, 9:30 AM   #260
suicuique
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Antonidas (EU)
Originally Posted by Tasonir View Post
Hmmm. If Illidan's hit rate is increased such that he doesn't suffer the penalty, I'm much further away from doing it than I thought.
I'd go as far and say that most Raid Bosses do not suffer from the DW penalty.

The last one that certainly did suffer from that was Prince in Karazhan.
Illidan, Shahrazz, ... (just form the feel I get tanking them) have a "normal" miss rate.
But a closer look on a log would certainly clear all doubts.

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Old 03/06/08, 7:40 PM   #261
Tasonir
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
Well I've already proven that Veras Darkshadow of the Illidari Council has a full DW penalty. Certainly a larger sample size than 205 hits would be nice, but I don't think you can claim that 27% miss is a statistical fluke when my "normal" miss rate should have been around 7%. That's just too huge a difference even for 205 swings.

Now, he's only a piece of the council fight, and so maybe blizzard allowed the DW penalty for an off-tank position but not when the mob in question is effectively 100% (minus magic damage to the raid) of the fight. Looking at mother shaz, the warrior tank from that night had a 12% miss rate, so yes, it appears main bosses aren't getting the full penalty.

The same tank that had 55% overall avoidance on Mother, had 75% avoidance on Illidan. However, the miss on Illidan was only 10% - showing that single fights simply aren't long enough for statistics to be reliable. It's possible he switched some of his gear around, but I don't think much changed. Illidan's fight was 397 attacks, Mother was 170 attacks.

Out of curiosity, Moroes seems to get the penalty as well, here's a WWS I looked up with 21% miss: WWS

In short, it's still technically possible to evasion tank Illidan, but it would require all possible buffs and probably some sunwell loot. Does anyone know a boss that dual wields and is close to 100% melee damage? Preferably without adds like moroes? Level 60 content would be fine as long as the boss themselves is level "skull".

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Old 03/06/08, 8:52 PM   #262
Pitbuller
King Hippo
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Wildhammer (EU)
Bulletmagnet - WWS
With 514 defence only 11% miss.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

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Old 03/07/08, 4:44 AM   #263
Ziggi
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Talnivarr (EU)
I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter if the unit is a boss or not when determinating when they get a dualwield penalty.

I was searching around for a dungeonboss that might have this nice feature, I was happy when I found a screenshot of Watchkeeper Garolgmar (first boss in ramparts)
However, even though he has two fistweapons, he doesn't have that dualwield penalty.

That demonhunter in ssc has DW penalty, right? Prince in kz does?

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Old 03/07/08, 11:40 AM   #264
SeanDamnit
Piston Honda
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Tasonir View Post
Well I've already proven that Veras Darkshadow of the Illidari Council has a full DW penalty. Certainly a larger sample size than 205 hits would be nice, but I don't think you can claim that 27% miss is a statistical fluke when my "normal" miss rate should have been around 7%. That's just too huge a difference even for 205 swings.

Now, he's only a piece of the council fight, and so maybe blizzard allowed the DW penalty for an off-tank position but not when the mob in question is effectively 100% (minus magic damage to the raid) of the fight. Looking at mother shaz, the warrior tank from that night had a 12% miss rate, so yes, it appears main bosses aren't getting the full penalty.

The same tank that had 55% overall avoidance on Mother, had 75% avoidance on Illidan. However, the miss on Illidan was only 10% - showing that single fights simply aren't long enough for statistics to be reliable. It's possible he switched some of his gear around, but I don't think much changed. Illidan's fight was 397 attacks, Mother was 170 attacks.

Out of curiosity, Moroes seems to get the penalty as well, here's a WWS I looked up with 21% miss: WWS

In short, it's still technically possible to evasion tank Illidan, but it would require all possible buffs and probably some sunwell loot. Does anyone know a boss that dual wields and is close to 100% melee damage? Preferably without adds like moroes? Level 60 content would be fine as long as the boss themselves is level "skull".
Romulo in KZ is subject to the DW penalties according to WWS logs. No adds initially, but you have to go through Moroes and a bunch of trash to get to him.

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Old 03/07/08, 5:03 PM   #265
Tasonir
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
True, although you still have julianne. I was considering Halazzi, the lynx boss in ZA. He does have the dual wielding penalty, but I think it may only be during his empowered (normal) mode - he reverts to single wielding when the spirit is out. I'd have to run ZA again soon to check, but WWS reports I've looked at show he misses druid tanks roughly 16-18% and one with a warrior he missed 21%. Not high enough to support a full 25% miss rate + 5% or 2% from defense, but he's certainly at some sort of penalty.

In short though, I think what I'm looking for (a very simple tank and spank with 95% or more avoidance) can't be shortcut - you need to make it to 100% (or close) without the dual wield penalty. Tank and spanks are great for theorycrafting but they tend to make more boring encounters, so blizzard tries to design things slightly more complex. At least if you're trying to game the entire fight, as opposed to an add or 1/2 of opera. Not that it isn't fun, I even have a screenshot a few pages back, but I want a healerless raid someday

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Old 03/08/08, 10:35 AM   #266
twitch0115
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Feathermoon
Hello. I am new to this forum so please take it easy.

Well with what i have read here it seems like with the leather gear you guys are getting close but could a hunter tank in the gear. With some well placed talents in survival for added HP and imp monkey for 12% dodge i think they could get close to or beyond with the current gear lists. So the only question i have now is if a hunter could get enough TPS to actually tank a raid. Now sorry if i wasted your time with this but i think it would be cool for someone to reach over 100% and be able to tank.

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Old 03/08/08, 1:57 PM   #267
SeanDamnit
Piston Honda
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Ner'zhul
I don't know about hunters. Sure they get the 14% from Imp. AotM, but they start of with -5% base dodge and don't get as good of a agility:dodge ratio as druids and even rogues. And of course, there is very little they can do in melee range that will do appreciable threat.

Is it possible? Even with the dodge issues stacked against them, it probably is, but it won't be nearly as viable as a druid/rogue.

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Old 03/08/08, 5:10 PM   #268
Hidden
Don Flamenco
 
Troll Rogue
 
Blackrock (EU)
Originally Posted by SeanDamnit View Post
I don't know about hunters. Sure they get the 14% from Imp. AotM, but they start of with -5% base dodge and don't get as good of a agility:dodge ratio as druids and even rogues. And of course, there is very little they can do in melee range that will do appreciable threat.

Is it possible? Even with the dodge issues stacked against them, it probably is, but it won't be nearly as viable as a druid/rogue.
Aggro shouldn't be that bad, they can deal *some* damage and have 0% aggro reduce unlike rogues.

About pure avoidance against a boss /w BoK:
Rogues:
Dodge: -0.59% + 5% + Agility / 20 * 1.15 * 1.1 + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Dodge Rating / 18.92 - 0.6%
Parry: 5% + 5% + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Parry Rating / 23.65 - 0.6%
Miss: 4.4% + Defense Rating / 59.25
Total Base Avoidance: 17.61%
Def Rating/Avoidance: 19.75
Agi/Avoidance: 15.81
Dodge Rating/Avoidance: 18.9231
Parry Rating/Avoidance: 23.65

Hunters:
Dodge: -5.45% + 8% + 6% + Agility / 25 * 1.15 * 1.1 + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Dodge Rating / 18.92 - 0.6%
Parry: 5% + 5% + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Parry Rating / 23.65 - 0.6%
Miss: 4.4% + Defense Rating / 59.25
Total Base Avoidance: 21.75%
Def Rating/Avoidance: 19.75
Agi/Avoidance: 19.763
Dodge Rating/Avoidance: 18.9231
Parry Rating/Avoidance: 23.65

Druids:
Dodge: -1.87% + 4% + Agility / 14.7059 * 1.03 * 1.1 + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Dodge Rating / 18.92 - 0.6%
Parry: 0%
Miss: 4.4% + Defense Rating / 59.25
Total Base Avoidance: 5.93%
Def Rating/Avoidance: 29.625
Agi/Avoidance: 12.98
Dodge Rating/Avoidance: 18.9231

Warriors:
Dodge: 0.75% + 0.8% + Agility / 30 * 1.1 + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Dodge Rating / 18.92 - 0.6%
Parry: 5% + 5% + 0.8% + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Parry Rating / 23.65 - 0.6%
Miss: 4.4% + 0.8% + Defense Rating / 59.25
Total Base Avoidance: 16.35%
Def Rating/Avoidance: 19.75
Agi/Avoidance: 27.27
Dodge Rating/Avoidance: 18.9231
Parry Rating/Avoidance: 23.65

Data is taken from Main Page - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft.

Last edited by Hidden : 03/08/08 at 5:33 PM.

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Old 03/08/08, 7:22 PM   #269
twitch0115
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Feathermoon
Originally Posted by Hidden View Post
Aggro shouldn't be that bad, they can deal *some* damage and have 0% aggro reduce unlike rogues.
Data is taken from Main Page - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft.
*snip* and ps sorry to quote whole thing i though i snipped it
So according to that only hunters and warriors can hit 100% avoidence? So are there any hunter friends that might be able to tell us the maximum TPS they can get in close combat?

Last edited by twitch0115 : 03/08/08 at 7:43 PM.

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Old 03/08/08, 7:37 PM   #270
koaschten
In the rear with the gear!
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Auchindoun (EU)
How do you read out of that numbers that only Warrior and Hunter can hit the full avoidance?

PS: was it really necessary to FULL QUOTE?

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Old 03/08/08, 7:45 PM   #271
twitch0115
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Feathermoon
well i guess i read it wrong. i though that the numbers such as

Total Base Avoidance: 16.35%
Def Rating/Avoidance: 19.75
Agi/Avoidance: 27.27
Dodge Rating/Avoidance: 18.9231
Parry Rating/Avoidance: 23.65

were the numbers useing the maximum +avoidence gear that was availible

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Old 03/08/08, 8:36 PM   #272
Deninkle
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Burning Blade (EU)
I believe you've made an unfortunate error. The values given after the Total Base Avoidance are not percentages of avoidance possible from Defence Rating/Agility/Dodge Rating/Parry Rating, but values of how much you need to get a percentage of avoidance.

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Old 03/08/08, 9:31 PM   #273
Pokeytax
Glass Joe
 
Hix
Human Paladin
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Hunters get +14% dodge from IAotM, +5% parry from Deflection, and a possible +1% from Catlike Reflexes. They also get Lightning Reflexes for +15% agility. It's close, but possible with % to spare - see here for details.
As above, it's the threat generation that's killer. Mongoose Bite can do surprisingly well but you would need Misdirection.
As far as other survivability goes, Hunters do get a 4% damage reduction and +10% and +5% health from talents, but since the itemization is more difficult, you will have less room to get stamina.

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Old 03/08/08, 11:35 PM   #274
Drundia
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warlock
 
Sylvanas (EU)
I would expect full damage avoidance to cap at 99%. The last 1% can of course be block.

I don't know if anyone has tested it, but you can get avoidance gear and try to test it on some level 1 mobs, which should have 13.8% modifier on each miss/block/parry/dodge from 69 level difference alone. If you get hit once in a while the whole idea of this thread becomes pointless. Also for this case I'd like to add that my longest recorded streak of 1% chance not occuring was in the 600s, so I'd suggest spending at least half an hour trying, or until first hit or block because you can block all that low damage they do.

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Old 03/09/08, 6:29 AM   #275
Ziggi
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Avoidance is _NOT_ capped at 99, 95 or any other number. 100% avoidance something that you can get. (especially with other classes to boost you.)

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5...ncevsdwzm3.jpg

Just take a look at that screenshot.
That was 1½ hours vs a lvl 70 mob. And that first hit was a hit I let him hit me by turning my back on him (needed to get him recorded in recap)

This mob is a dualwielder, so he get +19% extra miss.

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