94.2% is total avoidance i meant, not dodge only. It includes missrate, scorpid and swarm. I'm essentially planning on wearing what is linked in the lootzor I showed. Defense comes out quite often actually. I did mean 90 rating though, which comes out at 1.5% miss and 1.5% dodge.

Swarm does not stack with itself unfortunately.

So if Illidan Dual wields, he has a base 19% + 5% chance to miss right? To which we can add scorpid + swarm, bringing his base chance to miss to 31%.

So if I'm not mistaken, with a total 69% extra avoidance, I can tank Illidan without ever being hit? I don't think my guild will refuse if I ask to tank him.

Double post.

A quick glance at our 2 latest WWS reports for Illidan revealed that Illidan missed an average of 13% on our Maintank with his Melee Attacks.

Wait a second, you know that the MISS from WWS by default includes miss, dodge and parry?
I would guess no, since this value is way to high for miss only.

When you click on the "Melee" row you can see a breakdown of the avoidence stats. 13% looks like a reasonable amount for a non-dual wielding boss assuming the MT is well geared.

Edit: I've been browsing through WWS for Illidan, and it looks like most of his miss-rates are around 12-13%. I beleive we need to rethink whether or not Illidan is considered a dual-wielding mob.

Our last Illidan was 11% miss (miss, not dodge/parry). It isn't too high, because defense also increases miss rate at 0.04/point; expected miss rate for a crit capped warrior would be ~10%, higher if they wear >490 defense, which isn't that unusual. FtH may also use one of the miss-increasing debuffs.

Hmmm. If Illidan's hit rate is increased such that he doesn't suffer the penalty, I'm much further away from doing it than I thought. If he had the standard 24% or so DW miss rate, I'd already be able to do it. Tonight I put on my full dodge gear, an agil potion/food, although no agility scroll, for Veras. He's the rogue on the Illidari council.

Full dodge gear drops me down to around 22k armor (vs 33k in normal gear) and about 2200 less hp. That said, he rarely hit me more than once per vanish with the exception of moving him around. Most of the time picking him and moving him he'll get a shot at what's technically considered your back, so keep that in mind if you're going to try this. I warned my healer ahead of time, I recommend you do as well.

Edit: Our usual WWS poster had connection issues, and someone else posted WWS in his place. But they posted just their log, without collecting other player's...and I'm not even listed as being in the raid for council. I'll see if I can get logs collected and repost a WWS that shows I exist.

In the mean time, I ran a stand alone parser on just my log. The parser is a rather old program and I'm not entirely sure of its accuracy, but here goes:

205 melee swings:
9 hits
1 crit (I was using the 30 resilence elixir, but I suppose I was shorter on defense than I thought)
54 misses (26.34%)
130 dodges (63.41%)
3 parries (This is why I'm a bit confused about the accuracy - I think it would count absorbed hits as a parry, but I don't remember any shields and most of his hits should go through a PW:Shield at least partially. Especially on 22k armor; my healer was a paladin, so no buffs there.)
It also lists "immune" for 8 hits. Go figure.

Of the 205 swings, the average damage taken was 207. Pretty sweet. 4.88% hits+crits taken.


Random thought: [Embrace of the Dawn] was linked earlier with the suggestion a party member could use it. Can you use it yourself, then switch the necklace off, and keep the buff? A more reasonable way to get the 10 agility if so, I don't think many people will want to give up their neck slot for you. I may have to buy the pattern for my JCing alt.

Edit 3: Update: WWS uploaded again, fixed.

WWS

That link goes directly to the hits taken during council. The crit only hit for 4.6k; it was from his offhand, so lucky there.
12 hits over the entire fight, and I was dazed once, so a fair amount of those were from being behind him.

This is a viable raid build, although highly situational, of course. My gloves, chest and legs are all very low avoidance: tier 5 legs/chest, tier 6 gloves. Chest has 1 agility gem, 2 stamina, gloves/legs have 5agil/7stamina gems. Looking forward to upgrading those for a more or less complete set.

Once you remove it, the buff goes away.

I'd go as far and say that most Raid Bosses do not suffer from the DW penalty.

The last one that certainly did suffer from that was Prince in Karazhan.
Illidan, Shahrazz, ... (just form the feel I get tanking them) have a "normal" miss rate.
But a closer look on a log would certainly clear all doubts.

Well I've already proven that Veras Darkshadow of the Illidari Council has a full DW penalty. Certainly a larger sample size than 205 hits would be nice, but I don't think you can claim that 27% miss is a statistical fluke when my "normal" miss rate should have been around 7%. That's just too huge a difference even for 205 swings.

Now, he's only a piece of the council fight, and so maybe blizzard allowed the DW penalty for an off-tank position but not when the mob in question is effectively 100% (minus magic damage to the raid) of the fight. Looking at mother shaz, the warrior tank from that night had a 12% miss rate, so yes, it appears main bosses aren't getting the full penalty.

The same tank that had 55% overall avoidance on Mother, had 75% avoidance on Illidan. However, the miss on Illidan was only 10% - showing that single fights simply aren't long enough for statistics to be reliable. It's possible he switched some of his gear around, but I don't think much changed. Illidan's fight was 397 attacks, Mother was 170 attacks.

Out of curiosity, Moroes seems to get the penalty as well, here's a WWS I looked up with 21% miss: WWS

In short, it's still technically possible to evasion tank Illidan, but it would require all possible buffs and probably some sunwell loot. Does anyone know a boss that dual wields and is close to 100% melee damage? Preferably without adds like moroes? Level 60 content would be fine as long as the boss themselves is level "skull".

Bulletmagnet - WWS
With 514 defence only 11% miss.

Romulo in KZ is subject to the DW penalties according to WWS logs. No adds initially, but you have to go through Moroes and a bunch of trash to get to him.

True, although you still have julianne. I was considering Halazzi, the lynx boss in ZA. He does have the dual wielding penalty, but I think it may only be during his empowered (normal) mode - he reverts to single wielding when the spirit is out. I'd have to run ZA again soon to check, but WWS reports I've looked at show he misses druid tanks roughly 16-18% and one with a warrior he missed 21%. Not high enough to support a full 25% miss rate + 5% or 2% from defense, but he's certainly at some sort of penalty.

In short though, I think what I'm looking for (a very simple tank and spank with 95% or more avoidance) can't be shortcut - you need to make it to 100% (or close) without the dual wield penalty. Tank and spanks are great for theorycrafting but they tend to make more boring encounters, so blizzard tries to design things slightly more complex. At least if you're trying to game the entire fight, as opposed to an add or 1/2 of opera. Not that it isn't fun, I even have a screenshot a few pages back, but I want a healerless raid someday

Hello. I am new to this forum so please take it easy.

Well with what i have read here it seems like with the leather gear you guys are getting close but could a hunter tank in the gear. With some well placed talents in survival for added HP and imp monkey for 12% dodge i think they could get close to or beyond with the current gear lists. So the only question i have now is if a hunter could get enough TPS to actually tank a raid. Now sorry if i wasted your time with this but i think it would be cool for someone to reach over 100% and be able to tank.

I don't know about hunters. Sure they get the 14% from Imp. AotM, but they start of with -5% base dodge and don't get as good of a agility:dodge ratio as druids and even rogues. And of course, there is very little they can do in melee range that will do appreciable threat.

Is it possible? Even with the dodge issues stacked against them, it probably is, but it won't be nearly as viable as a druid/rogue.

Aggro shouldn't be that bad, they can deal *some* damage and have 0% aggro reduce unlike rogues.

About pure avoidance against a boss /w BoK:
Rogues:
Dodge: -0.59% + 5% + Agility / 20 * 1.15 * 1.1 + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Dodge Rating / 18.92 - 0.6%
Parry: 5% + 5% + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Parry Rating / 23.65 - 0.6%
Miss: 4.4% + Defense Rating / 59.25
Total Base Avoidance: 17.61%
Def Rating/Avoidance: 19.75
Agi/Avoidance: 15.81
Dodge Rating/Avoidance: 18.9231
Parry Rating/Avoidance: 23.65

Hunters:
Dodge: -5.45% + 8% + 6% + Agility / 25 * 1.15 * 1.1 + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Dodge Rating / 18.92 - 0.6%
Parry: 5% + 5% + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Parry Rating / 23.65 - 0.6%
Miss: 4.4% + Defense Rating / 59.25
Total Base Avoidance: 21.75%
Def Rating/Avoidance: 19.75
Agi/Avoidance: 19.763
Dodge Rating/Avoidance: 18.9231
Parry Rating/Avoidance: 23.65

Druids:
Dodge: -1.87% + 4% + Agility / 14.7059 * 1.03 * 1.1 + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Dodge Rating / 18.92 - 0.6%
Parry: 0%
Miss: 4.4% + Defense Rating / 59.25
Total Base Avoidance: 5.93%
Def Rating/Avoidance: 29.625
Agi/Avoidance: 12.98
Dodge Rating/Avoidance: 18.9231

Warriors:
Dodge: 0.75% + 0.8% + Agility / 30 * 1.1 + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Dodge Rating / 18.92 - 0.6%
Parry: 5% + 5% + 0.8% + Defense Rating / 59.25 + Parry Rating / 23.65 - 0.6%
Miss: 4.4% + 0.8% + Defense Rating / 59.25
Total Base Avoidance: 16.35%
Def Rating/Avoidance: 19.75
Agi/Avoidance: 27.27
Dodge Rating/Avoidance: 18.9231
Parry Rating/Avoidance: 23.65

Data is taken from Main Page - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft.

How do you read out of that numbers that only Warrior and Hunter can hit the full avoidance?

PS: was it really necessary to FULL QUOTE?

well i guess i read it wrong. i though that the numbers such as

Total Base Avoidance: 16.35%
Def Rating/Avoidance: 19.75
Agi/Avoidance: 27.27
Dodge Rating/Avoidance: 18.9231
Parry Rating/Avoidance: 23.65

were the numbers useing the maximum +avoidence gear that was availible

I believe you've made an unfortunate error. The values given after the Total Base Avoidance are not percentages of avoidance possible from Defence Rating/Agility/Dodge Rating/Parry Rating, but values of how much you need to get a percentage of avoidance.

Hunters get +14% dodge from IAotM, +5% parry from Deflection, and a possible +1% from Catlike Reflexes. They also get Lightning Reflexes for +15% agility. It's close, but possible with % to spare - see here for details.
As above, it's the threat generation that's killer. Mongoose Bite can do surprisingly well but you would need Misdirection.
As far as other survivability goes, Hunters do get a 4% damage reduction and +10% and +5% health from talents, but since the itemization is more difficult, you will have less room to get stamina.

I would expect full damage avoidance to cap at 99%. The last 1% can of course be block.

I don't know if anyone has tested it, but you can get avoidance gear and try to test it on some level 1 mobs, which should have 13.8% modifier on each miss/block/parry/dodge from 69 level difference alone. If you get hit once in a while the whole idea of this thread becomes pointless. Also for this case I'd like to add that my longest recorded streak of 1% chance not occuring was in the 600s, so I'd suggest spending at least half an hour trying, or until first hit or block because you can block all that low damage they do.

Avoidance is _NOT_ capped at 99, 95 or any other number. 100% avoidance something that you can get. (especially with other classes to boost you.)

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5...ncevsdwzm3.jpg

Just take a look at that screenshot.
That was 1½ hours vs a lvl 70 mob. And that first hit was a hit I let him hit me by turning my back on him (needed to get him recorded in recap)

This mob is a dualwielder, so he get +19% extra miss.