Just to answer few pages before about bosses and DW penalty.
Mother is NOT dual wielding mob. ITs pretty easy to see from the incoming damage (average speed, all swings about the same).
Illidan IS a dual wielding mob, but gets +19% hit by default. This is also the reason why shear "cannot" miss in most people minds. In fact Shear can miss like other melee attacks, but the +19% hit makes it very very hard to achieve.
Given skill initial miss rate of 5%, You need 14% chance to miss from debuffs/defense for miss to apear on shear table. 5% scorpid, 2% insect swarm, that leaves 7% extra. Its possible, and i had seen occurances of shear missing on WWS. 7% => 25x7 = 175 extra defense above 365. 540 defense will do it WITH insect swarm and scorpid sting. If you dont have insect swarm the required defense is at 590, so for all moonkin-less guilds, that effectively rules that out. Even with a moonkin miss on shear is extremely rare. In a high defense set i do have 561 defense, which means 0.5% chance to see a "miss" on shear. I used to have more with the hydross trinket activated, and thats when i saw my first shear miss. Now that i dont use that trinket anymore, and we never have a moonkin, shear basically cant miss me again .
Amber Band of Eluding is 21 agility and 21 Dodge, placing it your spreadsheet shows it as 2.32/2.44 making it the best rogue dodge ring. But my ingame Ratings Buster Tooltip shows it as 2.18% avoidance without BOK. It may be a rounding error in the addin or an error in your multipliers.
Edit : Or I could just be an idiot and not be factoring that I dont have Sinister Calling right now
Very interesting to hear someone's tried to make sheer miss. I wasn't exactly sure from your post, did you verify an actual miss on it? Do you have the record of that?
Anyways, I played around a bit with warcrafter, it seems pretty nice.
Notes: No option for improved grace of air or the 20 agility scroll. 93.99% avoidance. Thanks to koaschten for explaining how to include the buffs in the link.
Amber Band of Eluding is 21 agility and 21 Dodge, placing it your spreadsheet shows it as 2.32/2.44 making it the best rogue dodge ring. But my ingame Ratings Buster Tooltip shows it as 2.18% avoidance without BOK. It may be a rounding error in the addin or an error in your multipliers.
Edit : Or I could just be an idiot and not be factoring that I dont have Sinister Calling right now
I tested alot of the items ingame and they all seem to be within .01 of the chart. Ill add the ring to the list and let me know if there is anything else i missed.
Also for the druids, if you would like i can convert the chart for you... I'll try and get to it sometime tonight.
So i was discussing this idea with some guildies the other day and one of them insisted it's completely impossible. His argument was basically that theres some tiny tiny unmitigatable percent of a chance to get hit. To support his argument, he stated that it's possible for uncrittable tanks to take the extremely rare crit. From both my tanking experience and everything i've read, both portions of this are false, but he wouldn't have any of it. So, in a half relevant half OT question: Is there some tiny chance to get hit in any manner remaining for somebody with 102.4% avoidance? Is it possible at all for a 490 defense warrior/pally or 415 defense druid to get crit? or is this supposed tiny percentage just a notion of an avoidance cap which apparently doesnt exist? As an on-again off-again feral, the notion of stacking such absurdly large amounts of dodge is a thoroughly entertaining notion, though completely unattainable for myself (only in SSC/TK at the moment)
So i was discussing this idea with some guildies the other day and one of them insisted it's completely impossible. His argument was basically that theres some tiny tiny unmitigatable percent of a chance to get hit. To support his argument, he stated that it's possible for uncrittable tanks to take the extremely rare crit. From both my tanking experience and everything i've read, both portions of this are false, but he wouldn't have any of it. So, in a half relevant half OT question: Is there some tiny chance to get hit in any manner remaining for somebody with 102.4% avoidance? Is it possible at all for a 490 defense warrior/pally or 415 defense druid to get crit? or is this supposed tiny percentage just a notion of an avoidance cap which apparently doesnt exist? As an on-again off-again feral, the notion of stacking such absurdly large amounts of dodge is a thoroughly entertaining notion, though completely unattainable for myself (only in SSC/TK at the moment)
There is no tiny chance to get hit, as we have known for a long time through Evasion tanking. There have also been numerous bugs that grant 100% parry chance, or infinite stats which demonstrate the mechanic. A simple test is to put on high avoidance gear and let a lower level mob attack you for as long as is necessary to rule out the inherent hit hypothesis in one's mind.
There is also no tiny chance to be crit. "Unexplainable" crit are most commonly caused by one of the following: rounding errors in stacking defense rating (rating truncates down as it is converted into defense); accidentally /sitting in combat; or one of the few mobs known to have a bonus chance to crit or possess the ability Cold Blood (these are generally trash mobs).
My advice would simply be to ignore this person on this point.
In response to both Tasonir's attempt at building the max avoidance set for a druid and the request to adapt sylo's rogue avoidance spreadsheet for a druid, my compilation a little while back may be helpful. (In that post, I also link to an earlier list made using only current-as-of-2.3 gear. Conclusion: 100% avoidance is possible even before 2.4.)
My post also explicitly lists all the assumptions used to find the chosen items, providing values that would be of use in searching for others (e.g. in a spreadsheet).
Since this seems to pop up now and again, I wonder if there is a suitable place to provide sticky links to such curios.
That is true that I left out the random enchant items, and they are more avoidance. It's largely because I don't really consider them farmable, but of course your mileage my vary. The funny thing is I was actually keeping max avoidance items at least 6 months or more ago, just to play with, and I had a level 70 green +32 agility cloak. It eventually got disenchanted...
Maybe I should watch the AH more closely. I just tried to enter an illidari cloak in warcrafter, and while it does have the item and does let you pick the suffix, for some reason the 'of agility' is listed as 9 or 18 agility (two 'of agility' options). While I certainly agree that 2.3 100% avoidance is possible, for practical reasons, I'm not expecting to reach it until 2.4. For one, my guild is rather hostile to moonkins. Also, two of the best 2.3 avoidance items that I don't have drop in karazhan (gloves, legs) and how likely are they both to drop quickly when I don't run karazhan every week...I'd rather just cheat and get my new shiny 75 agility staff.
...
Since this seems to pop up now and again, I wonder if there is a suitable place to provide sticky links to such curios.
I've been planning on editing the first post to include information and FAQs about hitting 100% avoidence for druids rogues and warriors, but I just haven't yet. I've noticed that there are a lot of questions posted lately that are asking things that have already been gone over several times, so this will hopefully cut that down.
I'll see if I can do that when I get home from work tonight.
Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.
"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh
So this begs the question: What would be the most elegant way to cripple this? Strict enrage timers that give 500 expertise? Magic damage/stuns on every fight? Unbalancing strike on every boss?
Well, the first thing I'd note is that this doesn't really strike me as that unbalancing... yet. I mean, the total results we've seen to date are, as far as I've noticed, a T6 rogue tanking Hydross in a twink SSC run, and a Druid taking less damage than usual taking an add on Council. Nifty tricks, to be sure, but I don't think we're breaking anything yet.
Additionally, as noted, there are serious aggro issues with this, which will limit the utility on many fights; I don't think there are any fights in T6+ that are outright rendered trivial by this development.
Hence, I'm not sure to what extent Blizzard actually cares. If we start finding more uses for this - and in particular if rogues wind up as a significant force in terms of tanking, I can see them taking issue; but for the moment I don't expect changes.
Now, what happens if we *do* get to the point where it becomes an issue? Well, I see two obvious fixes:
1) Give a minimum miss chance, like the caster minimum resist chance; that is, set up a rule that no matter what happens, all attacks have a minimum 1% chance to hit, or
2) During enrage, all boss attacks are undodgeable (which would unfortunately destroy the ability to extend fights 15 seconds past their enrage timer with evasion, but how often is that relevant anyway?
Or, I suppose, they could decide that rogue tanking adds needed utility to the class, and start itemizing for it and designing fights that require a 100% avoidance character to beat. But I think that last one is pretty unlikely, myself.
As for AH farming, it didn't take me too long to get an [Amber Cape] of Agility and an [Amber Band] of Eluding (and have seen more in the AH since getting mine). So far the best I've gotten is a level 68 green staff of Agility; the frequency of my checks has dropped substantially, but I do still check for that level 69 or 70 sometimes. I've noted level 70 green staves of Stamina dropping in dungeons and periodically worry that the Agility staff will drop but go unnoticed and be summarily distributed randomly and disenchanted. Server economies vary of course, but I'd bet that if you check moderately often you'll see these items pop up.
The simplest way to address complete physical avoidance would be simply to give bosses some Expertise. (I don't want to violate any posting rules on spoilerism, but some unspecified amount of this may possibly be featured in Sunwell?) I hope that Blizzard doesn't retrofit that to all current bosses; even if I don't get to trivialize Sunwell progression encounters, it would be fun to go back and tank t5 or t6 bosses in a different way.
Hey, I made a few minor changes to the rogue chart. I also converted the chart over for druids… I am sure it is missing some good items so, if you find anything that needs to be added, let me know.
You should add
Lurker's Grasp -- (of agility) belt with 55 agility from Hyakiss the Lurker (karazhan)
Glider's Boots -- (of agility) boots with 55 agility from Shadikith the Glider (karazhan)
Ravager's Wrist-Wraps -- (of agility) bracers with 41 agility from Rokad the Ravager (karazhan)
these items are all best in slot for avoidance rogues
Those items apparently have been buffed since somebody posted whatever report on them I used when compiling both my original list for druids in 2.3 and my list updated for 2.4 (which I've now updated again).
All three of them are best in game for a druid (though not every best-in-slot item is needed to exceed 100% and one could get it without farming for any of these).
You DO know those items are random drops from Karazhan and you DO know there are at least 15-20 random suffixes for those items? Good luck farming those. I wouldn't count on them.
Got assigned to tank Veras again, so I figured I'd mention it. As I don't have grace of air or scorpid sting, I think he still had a lingering 1-2% chance to hit me. I noticed a few. Also, picking him up he sometimes gets a shot at your back, although I did do my best to minimize this.
It took two tries as the first time there was trouble with interrupting heals, and so it was especially long. That means I took 350 swings, which is quite high from a boss who's not there half the time. Oddly enough both attempts have the same avoidance rate: 97.7%. I should start bringing agility scrolls with me for that last percent.
From memory I had:
70.9% dodge
6.48% miss (assuming 5% base + 1.48 defense)
which leaves 22.62% for his dual wield penalty + hits.
I am going to start searching the AH more often, but I don't know if I'd be able to get a karazhan hunting party together. I suppose I could try, but in the end I'm really waiting for sunwell.
Yes, koaschten, I'm aware of the difficulty farming for the Karazhan items. In my list, I noted their existence but kept the other best-in-slot items, too, and my summary calculations are made for more common assumptions, with a note on how to modify for including the Karazhan drops (as well as a couple other options).
Ah good, I'm not losing my mind then. As for tanking in caster form with spells - you'd only lose the 4% dodge. On a non-dual wielding boss you probably can't get away with that, but for veras, it would certainly be possible due to his dual wield penalty. That said, it would only be useful if he's melee immune as you won't do much threat with 0 spell damage.
I've been wondering if it would be better to tank in catform when you're at 100% avoidance. You do have a threat penalty, but you're going to have a very high amount of agility which would actually make it a decent dps set. Would eliminate the problem of not having rage also. I suppose it would come down to not having much hp and the chances that you may take magic damage/an unlucky hit. Especially with a boss like Veras Darkshadow, when picking him up he's likely to move behind you and ignore your dodge for a hit.
Regarding the 4% loss tankability on dual wielders, don't forget that specials, for players at least, are hit capped at 9% rather than the DW miss rate. Also, tanking in cat form probably wouldn't get you much better threat, because as you said, you do have a threat penalty, rather than a bonus, AND you wouldn't be able to shred, so you would be mangle spamming / ripping. Maybe powershifting between cat and bear could help though, mangle to 4 CPs in cat form, regen energy till 80 or so, toss up a rake and a rip, immediately shift to bear and mangle. The rip / rake ticks should give you threat with the bear bonus applied, rather than the cat reduction.
Reliquary: Phase 1 becomes very easy. And phase 2 and 3 are probably possible as well.
Shahraz: Not sure if the shadow damage you'd take in avoidance gear would be too much or not. But it definitely would simplify Saber Lash
It's not everything, to be sure. But there are defenitely fights where it could work.
Don't forget Lurker in SSC, who can easily be tanked with 100% avoidance, because he IS tauntable.
Also, for Reliquary / Mother Shahz, both are absolutely impossible.
For RoS: Aggro in phase 2 would be impossible. There's no way in hell you can tell me that you can reflect deaden and after that, do enuff dmg yourself to hold aggro without getting hit. Even if you drop on a shield to reflect, then swap back to dual-wield, you can't dish out nearly enuff dmg with your dual wield to hold aggro.
Mother Shahz: Sabre-Lash that the main tanks take, make them unable to be teleported away from the raid into the shadow dmg thing. So if any of the 3 were to not take a sabre lash for about 45 seconds or so, the next sabre lash would kill you all, or, the shadow dmg teleport would.
To be clear: I was writing more towards the rogue-tanking option, whereupon the fact that Lurker is tauntable becomes irrlevant.
Reliquary: yes, a *warrior* couldn't generate enough aggro to hold it, but a rogue very well might, with the right gear. The spell reflect issue is of course a problem, but the fight is doable kicking the deadens. And even if you exclude phase 2, phase 3 is a definite possibility, as a rogue's aggro scales better with the damage buff than a warrior's does.
Shahraz: I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure they changed it to no longer be "who gets hit by saber lash" to, instead, "who is in the AoE of saber lash". And the point of this is that with 100% avoidance, you don't *need* to OT saber lash; the rogue could just sit there in front of Shahraz by himself, whereupon Saber Lash just does nothing - it gets avoided just like everything else.
Now, there could well be mechanics that I'm not thinking of that would render this impractical - but the point is, a lot of the usual rules go out the window when you have 100% avoidance.
Don't forget Lurker in SSC, who can easily be tanked with 100% avoidance, because he IS tauntable.
Also, for Reliquary / Mother Shahz, both are absolutely impossible.
For RoS: Aggro in phase 2 would be impossible. There's no way in hell you can tell me that you can reflect deaden and after that, do enuff dmg yourself to hold aggro without getting hit. Even if you drop on a shield to reflect, then swap back to dual-wield, you can't dish out nearly enuff dmg with your dual wield to hold aggro.
It still trivializes P1, *including enrage*, which is nice. You can use a standard tank for P2/3 where threat has always been more of a concern than mitigation.
Mother Shahz: Sabre-Lash that the main tanks take, make them unable to be teleported away from the raid into the shadow dmg thing. So if any of the 3 were to not take a sabre lash for about 45 seconds or so, the next sabre lash would kill you all, or, the shadow dmg teleport would.
It was changed. Take a look at the 2.2 patch notes, specifically:
"Saber Lash tanks will no longer be knocked back by Sinister Beam or hit by Fatal Attraction, even if they dodge or parry the attack."
You could either go with a low aggro tactic (single tank avoiding saber lashes) or just use the rogue as a zero-healing offtank. The problem with a zero healing OT rogue occurs if FA gets dropped on or pulled over the tanks - the sudden spike from FA damage, likely to be unresisted, may kill him before the healers begin to heal a player they're not healing normally.
Last edited by Kalman : 03/22/08 at 9:34 PM.
Reason: "Threat more than aggro"? I'm dumb.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
It still trivializes P1, *including enrage*, which is nice. You can use a standard tank for P2/3 where threat has always been more of a concern than aggro.
It was changed. Take a look at the 2.2 patch notes, specifically:
"Saber Lash tanks will no longer be knocked back by Sinister Beam or hit by Fatal Attraction, even if they dodge or parry the attack."
You could either go with a low aggro tactic (single tank avoiding saber lashes) or just use the rogue as a zero-healing offtank. The problem with a zero healing OT rogue occurs if FA gets dropped on or pulled over the tanks - the sudden spike from FA damage, likely to be unresisted, may kill him before the healers begin to heal a player they're not healing normally.
Ooh, had no idea that they changed the effects of Saber Lash, the only change I knew of for MS was the hot-fix on parrying. I suppose a rogue could do it, and hope he has an itchy trigger finger in case the FA'd people get ported on top of him.
I definitely would like to see someone try this. I've already started working on a passive 100% avoidance set as a warrior, but I'm not gonna take my 2nd set of T6 as prot gear AGAIN to try for it. I hit uncrushable in a set of gear I have, sacrificing nothing but my stam trinket and a little bit of expertise, but that's about as far as I go with goin for crazy stats.
If you wanna see the specific gear I use for uncrushability in T6 gear, let me know, and I'll post all of it.
03/16/08, 1:44 PM
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