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Old 09/24/07, 7:56 AM   #26
Multane
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Quel'Thalas (EU)
Another way to "abuse" whis would be in any basic tank'n'spank fight, with a enrage that only increases the boss's melee vs the tank.

Who cares bout threat gen? You stand there Auto attack for a couple of minutes first, its not like anyone else has to do anything...

When the tank has enough threat, DPS can start a bit. Sure it'll take ages, but eventually, you'll get the kill.

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Old 09/24/07, 8:43 AM   #27
amethyst
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warrior
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
I can see it now ....

Guild Master: Uh guys? One of the bosses in our instance save is .... missing.
Tank: Nah, I grabbed Bob the hunter and Dave the druid and we killed him last night. Was only caster lewt. Meh.

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Old 09/24/07, 9:12 AM   #28
Thiaril
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Dunemaul (EU)
That's a very interesting project, sounds like a lot of fun if it works!

Also, for a ring slot, if I'm not mistaken this ring, Elementium Band of the Sentry - Items - World of Warcraft, is better than the Band of the Eternal Defender, for avoidance.

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Old 09/24/07, 9:25 AM   #29
Caesar
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Moonglade (EU)
there is a 3% dodge pot you can take, it's a non-repeatable quest reward though :/

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Old 09/24/07, 10:17 AM   #30
songster
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by amethyst View Post
I can see it now ....

Guild Master: Uh guys? One of the bosses in our instance save is .... missing.
Tank: Nah, I grabbed Bob the hunter and Dave the druid and we killed him last night. Was only caster lewt. Meh.
Why do you need the hunter and druid? Even a warrior on his/her own will do the damage eventually, and if you're 100% immune, why risk it? :-)

That said, *are* there any melee-only bosses in the current endgame?

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Old 09/24/07, 10:18 AM   #31
Zure
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Mage
 
Nathrezim
Druid Two piece dungeon set is 35 dodge rating while rejuv is up.

If suffering works on boss level mobs, then you could have a warlock chain summon voidwalkers and continually re-apply it for a further 10% hit reduction.

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Old 09/24/07, 10:31 AM   #32
Multane
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Quel'Thalas (EU)
Originally Posted by songster View Post
Why do you need the hunter and druid? Even a warrior on his/her own will do the damage eventually, and if you're 100% immune, why risk it? :-)

That said, *are* there any melee-only bosses in the current endgame?
Only ones i can think of atm are Attumen the Huntsman and Big Bad Wolf (Opera).

Might be nice to have a physical immune tank on Karatess though. Some of our attempts are still foiled by the Tidalvess tank getting a gib from WF

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Old 09/24/07, 10:58 AM   #33
Nezralix
Bald Bull
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Blade
If anyone actually managed to successfully trivialize difficult bosses by doing this, then you can bet Blizzard would put a cap on avoidance, or a guaranteed minimum chance to be hit.

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Old 09/24/07, 10:58 AM   #34
Xerophyte
King Hippo
 
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Awnh
Tauren Warrior
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Multane View Post
Might be nice to have a physical immune tank on Karatess though. Some of our attempts are still foiled by the Tidalvess tank getting a gib from WF
Doing things like Vashj phase 2 & 3 without dps touching the Elites could be an amusing experiment as well. 'course, in order to get this set you need to clear every encounter in the game so usefulness on current fights is very academic. There likely will be encounters in Sunwell Plateu where stacking avoidance to absurdity will be handy for offtanking situations so it's good to keep track of the items wanted for it if you're far enough along in progress to be able to.

Edit:
Originally Posted by Nezralix View Post
If anyone actually managed to successfully trivialize difficult bosses by doing this, then you can bet Blizzard would put a cap on avoidance, or a guaranteed minimum chance to be hit.
To be honest I'm amazed that they haven't implemented a linearisation in effectivity, like the one for armour, with avoidance and resistance long ago. Faster-than-exponential returns on investments at the high end makes balancing their cost compared to the wimpy linear increases from armour and health an impossible task.

Last edited by Xerophyte : 09/24/07 at 11:04 AM.

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Old 09/24/07, 12:18 PM   #35
bludwork
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warrior
 
Eonar
why do people assume the only damage tanks take is only physical? You can easily build a full rage bar with the extra crap raid bosses throw at you

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Old 09/24/07, 12:53 PM   #36
tristantio
Piston Honda
 
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Human Warlock
 
Twisting Nether
Originally Posted by bludwork View Post
why do people assume the only damage tanks take is only physical? You can easily build a full rage bar with the extra crap raid bosses throw at you
It wouldn't be enough rage to hold an appreciable amount of threat over the DPS though.

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Old 09/24/07, 1:33 PM   #37
Lord BEEF
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
I would think a druid might have an easier time getting to 100% avoidance with the huge returns on agility but I haven't run the numbers

Check out my friend's bitchin' Lord of the Rings Art

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Old 09/24/07, 1:59 PM   #38
Nite_Moogle
I prefer the term treasure hunting
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Lord BEEF View Post
I would think a druid might have an easier time getting to 100% avoidance with the huge returns on agility but I haven't run the numbers
Boevis tried this a couple of months ago with straight +agility gear and got stuck in the low 90s, I think.

Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.

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Old 09/24/07, 3:40 PM   #39
zirky
Piston Honda
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Kargath
100% avoidance would yield a tank that could easily single tank Gurtogg with only minor healing needed.

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Old 09/24/07, 4:28 PM   #40
Nork
Bald Bull
 
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Troll Mage
 
Aggramar
A 100% avoidance tank could theoretically solo Gruul. However, there are a couple of important numbers to point out:
- After the first fifteen minutes, cave-ins would do enough damage to one-shot the tank.
- Assuming 500 dps, it would take just under two hours to finish him off.

I'm not sure how much time passes between cave-ins, but I'd be very impressed by the tank who can dodge them perfectly for over 100 minutes.

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Old 09/24/07, 4:49 PM   #41
Dollar
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by Nork View Post
A 100% avoidance tank could theoretically solo Gruul. However, there are a couple of important numbers to point out:
- After the first fifteen minutes, cave-ins would do enough damage to one-shot the tank.
- Assuming 500 dps, it would take just under two hours to finish him off.

I'm not sure how much time passes between cave-ins, but I'd be very impressed by the tank who can dodge them perfectly for over 100 minutes.
You would actually 3 man it because of the need for scorpid sting and insect swarm in the calculations.

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Old 09/24/07, 7:07 PM   #42
Multane
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Quel'Thalas (EU)
Originally Posted by Xerophyte View Post
Doing things like Vashj phase 2 & 3 without dps touching the Elites could be an amusing experiment as well. 'course, in order to get this set you need to clear every encounter in the game so usefulness on current fights is very academic. There likely will be encounters in Sunwell Plateu where stacking avoidance to absurdity will be handy for offtanking situations so it's good to keep track of the items wanted for it if you're far enough along in progress to be able to.

...snip....
I just came from a night of Vashj tries, and yeh, that would be nice. Would save up loads of DPS we can use on the striders. Striders kept nailing us.

Anyways, sry for the offtopic.

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Old 09/24/07, 8:32 PM   #43
Yakout
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Alleria
Originally Posted by SeanDamnit View Post
I took out Elixir of Mastery as it wouldn't stack with the Elixir of Major Agility [...] I added in the Scroll of Agility V
I'm pretty sure (though not 100%) that a Scroll of Agility won't stack with an Elixir of Major Agility. I know with utter certainty this is the case for Strength Scrolls and Elixirs.

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Old 09/24/07, 8:40 PM   #44
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Scrolls were made to stack with elixirs as part of the patch that limited elixirs to one offensive and one defensive, as far as I know. So I'm pretty sure stacking the scroll with the potion is valid.

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Old 09/24/07, 9:13 PM   #45
BoinKlasik
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Cenarius
It is a pity that Blizz changed raid boss killing buffs to not work past level 63 (I think) because then you could kill hakkar and get another 50 agility.

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Old 09/24/07, 9:24 PM   #46
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Now, I don't remember the exact druid conversions, so this might be off by a bit... but, for a feral druid:

Deathblow X11 Goggles, 10 agi/Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, Glyph of the Defender
Necklace of the Deep, 2x10 agi
Thunderheart Pauldrons, 2x10 agi, Greater Inscription of Warding
Phoenix-Wing Cloak, 12 agi
Auchenai Monk's Tunic, 2x10agi, 1x4agi/5def, +6 stats
Insidious Bands, 10agi, +12 def
Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation, 2x10agi, +15 agi
Belt of Deep Shadow, 2x10agi
Skulker's Greaves, 3x10agi, Nethercleft Leg Enchant
Shadowmaster's Boots, 2x10agi, +12 agi
2xDelicate Eternium Ring, +4 stats
Shadowmoon Insignia
Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch
Stormherald, +35agi

Now, if I added this up more or less correctly (which, admittedly, is something of a large assumption), with raid buffs this leads to a druid with about 1041 agility, 191 dodge rating, and 101 defense rating.

101 Defense rating is +41 defense, or +1.64^ to dodge and enemy miss rate. Hence, the enemy has a miss rate of 5% (base) -.6% (level) + 1.64% (defense) + 5% (scorpid) + 2% (Insect Swarm), for a total of 13.04%.

191 dodge rating is 10.09% dodge. Druids get a passive 4% dodge, with another 1% for being an NE. And 1061 agility, at 14.73 agility to the dodge, works out to 72.03% dodge. Adding that up, we get 87.12% dodge, minus .6% for the level difference, is 86.52%

Adding that up, we get a total avoidance rate of 99.56%. Which, admittedly, is not quite there (unless I made a mistake in my numbers somewhere; if someone who knows druid mechanics better than I do would like to check, that would be great). But if we could squeeze out another 6 agi or so somewhere, we'd be done. Any ideas?

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Old 09/24/07, 9:44 PM   #47
zehguga
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Priest
 
The Venture Co
If a warrior ever managed to achieve 100% avoidance, what would the best talent build be, for maximizing tanking performance - ie, threat?

I'd say maybe a build such as this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Decreases rage cost on a lot of things, increases rage generation and threat generation.

I don't know, as was said on some posts, it could be viable in some fights, maybe more if people could make it work.

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Old 09/24/07, 9:48 PM   #48
zehguga
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Priest
 
The Venture Co
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Now, I don't remember the exact druid conversions, so this might be off by a bit... but, for a feral druid:

Deathblow X11 Goggles, 10 agi/Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, Glyph of the Defender
Necklace of the Deep, 2x10 agi
Thunderheart Pauldrons, 2x10 agi, Greater Inscription of Warding
Phoenix-Wing Cloak, 12 agi
Auchenai Monk's Tunic, 2x10agi, 1x4agi/5def, +6 stats
Insidious Bands, 10agi, +12 def
Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation, 2x10agi, +15 agi
Belt of Deep Shadow, 2x10agi
Skulker's Greaves, 3x10agi, Nethercleft Leg Enchant
Shadowmaster's Boots, 2x10agi, +12 agi
2xDelicate Eternium Ring, +4 stats
Shadowmoon Insignia
Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch
Stormherald, +35agi

Now, if I added this up more or less correctly (which, admittedly, is something of a large assumption), with raid buffs this leads to a druid with about 1041 agility, 191 dodge rating, and 101 defense rating.

101 Defense rating is +41 defense, or +1.64^ to dodge and enemy miss rate. Hence, the enemy has a miss rate of 5% (base) -.6% (level) + 1.64% (defense) + 5% (scorpid) + 2% (Insect Swarm), for a total of 13.04%.

191 dodge rating is 10.09% dodge. Druids get a passive 4% dodge, with another 1% for being an NE. And 1061 agility, at 14.73 agility to the dodge, works out to 72.03% dodge. Adding that up, we get 87.12% dodge, minus .6% for the level difference, is 86.52%

Adding that up, we get a total avoidance rate of 99.56%. Which, admittedly, is not quite there (unless I made a mistake in my numbers somewhere; if someone who knows druid mechanics better than I do would like to check, that would be great). But if we could squeeze out another 6 agi or so somewhere, we'd be done. Any ideas?
Full raid buffs? Including Grace of Air Totem, foods, class buffs, BoK and Survival of the Fittest?

As far as I can see, a druid with 100% avoidance would tank better than a warrior, due to threat generation from personal damage alone. But I'm no expert in tanking.

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Old 09/24/07, 11:51 PM   #49
BoinKlasik
Von Kaiser
 
BoinKlasik's Avatar
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Cenarius
Wall of text inc:

Anybody considered trying this on a hunter?

notes to self:
25 agi -> 1 dodge%
19 dodge rating -> 1% dodge
2.36 DR -> 1 defence

Build I am using: Build
Special notes: gives 9% extra agility

-5.45% dodge base (Source) @70 + 14% dodge from imp Monkey + 3% talented dodge + 1% (NE hunter) racial
5% base parry + 5% talented parry
5% base miss + 5% scorpid + 2% boomkin

using lootzor search of this

Items:
Helm: Deathblow X11 Goggles (12 def meta, 10 dodge) - 48 agility 10 dodge, 12 def
Neck: The Darkener's Grasp - 23 dodge, 27 defense
Shoulders: Gronnstalker's Spaulders (2x 10 dodge) - 34 agil, 20 dodge
Back: Phoenix-Wing Cloak - 27 dodge, 22 defense
Chest: Auchenai Monk's Tunic - (2x 10 dodge 1x 10 defense) 24 agil, 20 dodge, 10 defense
Legs: Bow-stitched Leggings (3x 10 dodge) 42 agil, 30 dodge
Bracers: Insidious Bands - (1x 10 dodge) 28 agil, 10 dodge
Gloves: Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation - (2x 10 dodge) 35 agil, 20 dodge
Belt: Belt of Deep Shadow - (2x 10 dodge) 32 agil, 20 dodge
Boots: Nimble-foot Treads - 32 agil 25 dodge
Ring 1: Ring of Sundered Souls - 25 dodge, 18 defense
Ring 2: Elementium Band of the Sentry - 19 dodge, 20 def
Trinket 1: Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch - 38 dodge
Trinket 2: Shadowmoon Insignia - 32 dodge 36 defense
Weapon: Wildfury Greatstaff - 50 dodge
Totals:
(Dont think meta effects turn on, but lets see what happens)
Agil: 275
Dodge: 369 (19.42% dodge)
Defense: 145 (2.44 dodge, miss, parry)

Enchants: same as war except 1h agil becomes 2h agil
Totals from enchants
Agil: 75
Dodge: 56
Defense: 46

159 base agility

Total stats overall:
Agil: 509
Dodge: 425
Defense: 191 (3.2 all)

Unbuffed avoidance
Miss: 15.2 (5+5+2+3.2)
Dodge: 57.11 (-5.45+14+3+1+425/19+ (509*1.09)/25)
Parry: 13.2 (5+5+3.2)
85.51%

Buffed:
agil becomes:
(509+19 (MotW) + 20 (warp burger) + 20 (scroll of agility v) + 35 (Major Agility Elixir) + 88 (imp GoA))*1.09(talented)*1.1(kings) = 828
throw that in there:
total avoidance becomes 96.4

bah, was hoping it would work because of high base dodge, but the 25 -> 1 conversion kills it by the end

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Old 09/25/07, 2:49 AM   #50
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Okay, update re: Druid. There's some glitches in lootzor so some of the above selections are invalid/incorrect. The corrected gear gives 676 agi, 96 defense rating, and 169 dodge rating.

Throw in MotW (18), Grace of Air totem (88), Elixir of Major Agility (35), a Warp Burger (20), and a Scroll of Agility V (20), and we gain another 181 agility, bringing the total to 857. Toss in the druid's base 75 agility, and we're at 932. Then, we gain 13% of that from Kings and Survival of the Fittest, putting us at 1053 total agility. Unfortunately, the druid's base dodge seems to be slightly negative, so from agility alone we're only at 69.69% dodge (or so; rounding might be off by a couple of hundredths of a percent).

96 defense rating works out to 40 defense, 15 of which is negated by the enemy being level 73; hence, this works out to 25 net defense, or 1% to miss and dodge.

Hence, total miss chance is 5% + 1% + 5% (scorpid) + 2% (insect swarm) = 13%.

169 dodge rating works out to 8.93% dodge, so the total amount of dodge is 69.69 (agi) + 8.93 (dodge) + 1% (defense) + 1% (NE) + 4% (Feral Swiftness) = 84.62% dodge, putting our total mitigation at 97.62%, making the overall table:

84.62% dodge
13.00% miss
1.00% crit
1.38% crushing

...which doesn't quite work. One would need to squeeze another 31 agi or so out of gear + buffs to reach 100%, which I suspect will be hard.

However, lets consider a rogue for a moment; our hypothetical rogue is specced 5/5 Lightning Reflexes, 5/5 Deflection, and 5/5 Sinister Calling.

Deathblow X11 Goggles, +5 agi/+7 sta, Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, Glyph of the Defender.
Necklace of the Deep, 2x10agi
Slayer's Shoulderpads 2x10agi, Greater Inscription of Warding
Phoenix-Wing Cloak, 12 agi
Slayer's Chestpiece, 3x10agi, +6 stats
Insidious Bands, +10 def, +12 def
Gloves of Dextrous Manipulation, 2x10agi, +15 agi
Belt of Deep Shadow, 2x10agi
Skulker's Greaves, 2x10agi, 1x5agi/7sta, Nethercleft Leg Enchant
Shadowmaster's Boots, 10agi, 10 def, +12 agi
Delicate Eternium Ring, +4 stats
Ring of Sundered Soulds, +4 stats
Shadowmoon Insignia
Scarab of Displacement
Blade of Infamy, +15 agi
Sun Eater, +15 agi
Barrel-Blade Longrifle, 2x10agi

(in case you were wondering about the inclusion of the blue and yellow gems: they're needed to activate the metagem, something that a number of the other builds here posted has overlooked)

So, that's a total of 663 agility, 189 defense, and 155 dodge from gear. Rogue base agility is 163, which takes us to 826. The usual 181 agi from buffs takes this to 1007. Add 25% to this from Kings and Sinister Calling, and we're at 1258.

189 defense rating works out to 79 defense, reduced by 15 against the level 73 enemy is 64, or +2.56% to dodge/parry/block.

Miss rate is thus 5% + 2% + 5% + 2.56% = 14.56%, and parry rate is 5% + 5% (talent) + 2.56% = 12.56%.

155 dodge rating is 8.19% dodge. Dodge from agility is (1258-11.5)/20 = 63.32%, plus 5% from talents, 1% from being NE, 2.56% from defense, and the aformentioned 8.19% works out to 80.07% dodge.

Hence, our total avoidance is 80.07 + 12.56 + 14.56 = 107.19%. So, we're over 100% avoidance - in fact, we could dump some more in the name of offensive stats. Although, sicne we're already at about 1700 AP and 22% crit rate unbuffed, with a 100 dps, slow, MH, this will already generate decent aggro - maybe not quite as much as a prot tank, but not too bad either, I suspect.

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