Ogri'la aegis has better avoidance for a warrior on the offhand than a blade of the unrequitted, though is sacs threat (maybe).
10 Def gem in the warbringer shoulders yellow slot would be better avoidance. over 5def/4dodge.
Situations in which a 100% avoidance tank is awesome: Hal'azzi (Lynx avatar) off tank. all you have to do is stand there and accept the cleaves (which can be dodged parried and i think miss). I also suppose there are other bosses around which cleave like him and could help be controlled.
To respond to the avoidance tank haters or people who think tanks with high avoidance cant keep threat, try me. Irtankgood, server: Stormrage.
Lastly, 100% avoidance isnt usually the goal. 80% with 20% block is awesome btw (no crushes). ask the healers having to heal a tank with 80% avoidance (they LOVE it). some really hard hitting bosses i push it as high as i can (around 85%) and for trash and heroics i tone it down a bit to around 65%. Its a very nice option to have a bunch of different gear on me at all times. /wave
With all standard avoidance buffs: Improved MotW, scorpid sting, insect swarm, improved Grace of Air, agi scroll, agi elixir and agi food, as well as [Elderberry Pie]. Once my pies expire, I'll need 2-piece Moonglade rejuvenation to cap out.
The hits on Bloodboil were due to positioning, I think, due to knockbacks and such. He did crit once, though, and landed a confounding blow, so there might have been a gap in debuffs. The one acidic wound went on right as I was getting him into place. If I try Bloodboil again, I think I'll back into a corner while stealthed before pulling.
My moonkin died around a minute in on Shahraz, and I'm inclined to believe the two hits in that fight are due to that. No movement in that fight made it much more controlled.
It's so nice when you don't have to run away from Big Bad Wolf as a rogue tank. I was recently in a PuG and got turned right away so I just tanked him for the duration. My current fully buffed avoidance is 95% =D.
So recently, do to my guild giving up pushing through Sunwell (stopped at M'uru), I've decided to see if you can add one more class to this list. Hunter. I know hunter's are similar, though not quite the same as Rogues are in terms of mitigation, however the gap I believe can be made up for by Aspect of the Monkey, and by speccing into BM a minimum of 8 points to make it improved, giving you 14% dodge from merely activating an aspect.
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about tanking/avoidance to do this alone, so I wonder if someone could help me determine if it's possible to do as a hunter. So far I've come up with the best gear I have/can obtain and can only reach about 96.5% avoidance. But perhaps I'm wrong.
Improved Aspect of the Monkey 14% Dodge
Scorpid Sting (from another Hunter) -5% Hit
Insect Swarm -2% Hit
Avoidance Total: 95.56%
Assuming I did my math right, I'm REALLY close, but I'm not sure if there's something I'm overlooking or if there's something I can do to improve that ever so slightly to reach the 101.8% that I need.
Even with the 25% bonus to AGI from Kings and Lightning Reflexes, pure Dodge is better to socket than Agility.
10 AGI gem = 12.5 AGI with buffs
AGI-Dodge ratio for hunter is 25- so 12.5/25 gives us .5% Dodge per 10 AGI gem.
Dodge rating, however, converts at 18.9231, so 10/18.9231 gives us .5248% Dodge per 10 Dodge rating gem.
[e] Final edit, cleaning up the post and adding a few things. It is possible to reach 100% avoidance as a hunter, and this is how to do it. Character sheet is here.
As noted on the sheet, the character is buffed with the following:
[Scroll of Agility IX] is also used but cannot be selected in Warcrafter; it is worth 1% avoidance exactly. [Buttermilk Delight] stacks with the other buffs and is worth slightly more than .5% avoidance.
Other abilities:
Improved Aspect of the Monkey- Increases Hunter's Dodge chance by 14%
Mandatory mob debuffs:
Scorpid Sting - Hunter ability increases mob's chance to miss by 5%
Insect Swarm - Druid Balance talent increases mob's chance to miss by 2%
Now, we need 101.8 total avoidance against a lvl 73. The character sheet shows 81.31 avoidance. Scroll of Agility, Buttermilk Delight, Imp Aspect of Monkey, and our two mob debuffs add up to 1+.5+14+5+2=22.5 effective avoidance. So, we have 103.81 avoidance, or 2.01 avoidance over the cap. This provides a bit of wiggle room to swap gear around, or to drop Insect Swarm, although it should be noted that this gearset is sort of ridiculous to begin with, as it contains S4 and non-hunter SWP gear. Still, it is entirely possible to achieve, and that's kind of cool.
I have written a small calculator to compare gear with regard to pure avoidance, just for the hell of it; it is attached here.
Any comments, improvements, or corrections can be addressed to me by PM.
Last edited by Aeverius : 08/23/08 at 12:11 AM.
Improved Lay on Hands is really fucking good:
Originally Posted by Malleus
Unless there's a reason to save it for a specific point in the fight, someone should be getting laid every single time it's up.
Even with the 25% bonus to AGI from Kings and Lightning Reflexes, pure Dodge is better to socket than Agility.
10 AGI gem = 12.5 AGI with buffs
AGI-Dodge ratio for hunter is 25- so 12.5/25 gives us .5% Dodge per 10 AGI gem.
Dodge rating, however, converts at 18.9231, so 10/18.9231 gives us .5248% Dodge per 10 Dodge rating gem.
I'm playing around with this some more, but replacing all the agility you can with equivalent amounts of dodge rating is a start. I'll edit as I come up with additional points.
[e] I see what appears to be an error in your math. You have added the base 5% miss chance at the end despite it already being calculated in your Defense-to-Avoidance calculation. If I am misunderstanding your nomenclature, let me know. I have converted 192 AGI to Dodge rating via gems and enchants for a bonus of roughly .52% avoidance. I will now attempt to swap items for better stats.
So, if we add up the talent bonuses from before, we get 14+5+2+1 (the one is modeling the 20 agi scroll that I couldn't plug in), or 22%. That gets us 97.87. If I add in the other 5% you have listed, that's 102.87, but as I said, I believe you have that number there erroneously. I am also confused about your target number- 102.4 is the avoidance number required to avoid crushes from a mob three levels above you, not 101.8 as you posted.
EDIT: Redid my math to factor in the 5% miss error. Also I forgot to actually add in the agility from the scroll, even though I listed the buff.
The 101.8% I'd pulled from the Rogue discussion, and it was something related to block, though I don't remember off the top of my head, Edit, found the quote:
Every level adds .2% to the boss's chance to hit, as well as his ability to avoid a parry, block or dodge. Rogues do not have to worry about block. That makes .6% per level. Since bosses are 3 levels higher, thats an extra 1.8%. The total you need is 101.8% avoidance.
As for the Scroll (I'm also using warcrafter, you beat me to linking a profile) with Kings + SV Talents it comes out to exactly 25 agi, which is 1% dodge. Though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (but 15%+10%=25% increase, 125% of 20 is 25).
So yeah, I'd be at 97.87%. I still have quite a gap to close.
(edit2) as for the [Auchenai Monk's Tunic], I completed the quest and can't reobtain this unless I can get a generous GM to restore it for me.
(edit3) can the upgrades be done switching from a 2 hander to 2 one handers with sockets for dodge gems? i.e. [Monster - Item, Dagger (Umbral Shiv)] and [Rage of Ages]? Checking it now for those specific ones with +20 agi enchants.
(edit4) in reference to the edit above, I came out with 76.67% avoidance (can't get those boots anymore either, same issue as the tunic) and then adding the 22% again that puts me at 98.67%. Still can't ring out the last 3.23%.
(edit3) can the upgrades be done switching from a 2 hander to 2 one handers with sockets for dodge gems? i.e. [Monster - Item, Dagger (Umbral Shiv)] and [Rage of Ages]? Checking it now for those specific ones with +20 agi enchants.
[Umbral Shiv] is not unique. You can have two which is nice because it can have up to 52 agility (not counting talents/buffs) and it comes with hit rating, as well as extra stamina.
And, are you certain about the 101.8% total avoidance needed?
Our MT claims the value lies at 102.7, the earlier link also shows 101.8 though.
It should be 101.8%: A level 73 mob will reduce your parry, dodge and to be missed chance by 0.6% so that adds up to 100%+1.8%.
The other number - which is 102.4%, not 102.7% - is to become crush immune as Paladin/Warrior. Block is added in this as well so you have to achieve another 0.6% which increases the 101.8% value you to the magical number of 102.4%.
And, are you certain about the 101.8% total avoidance needed?
Our MT claims the value lies at 102.7, the earlier link also shows 101.8 though.
Start with 100% percent avoidance against a same-level mob. For each level above you (3, in this case), the mob has a +.2% chance to prevent a miss/parry/dodge/block by you. For the three levels, that's .6%. So, a Rogue must add extra avoidance to compensate for that, but only for miss/parry/dodge, since Rogues can't block. .6*3 = 1.8, or 101.8. Warriors and Paladins must multiply by four to include blocking, and end up with 2.4 and a total of 102.4. Hence, depending on your class's abilities, the number involved will move around slightly, although not by much.
[e] *makes rude gesture at Liar*
Improved Lay on Hands is really fucking good:
Originally Posted by Malleus
Unless there's a reason to save it for a specific point in the fight, someone should be getting laid every single time it's up.
Got a question about GBB, I tanked the fight last night as a Rogue Avoidance tank. Even though I should be at the cap, I still ate 7 Arcing Smash's. Is there a seperate mechanic for it because its an AOE?
Got a question about GBB, I tanked the fight last night as a Rogue Avoidance tank. Even though I should be at the cap, I still ate 7 Arcing Smash's. Is there a seperate mechanic for it because its an AOE?
There should be no difference between AoE and normal melee swings. Are you positive you were at the cap of 101.8%? IIRC Bloodboil is a dual wielder but I am not sure if he has the dual wield penalty or not. If he has, then you might have not have been at the cap but still gotten away with it because of that. His Arcing Smash is a special that should not be affected by his miss penalty which is why you could have gotten hit by it. Atleast this would explain things - well until someone comes here and corrects me about him not having a miss penalty.
There should be no difference between AoE and normal melee swings. Are you positive you were at the cap of 101.8%? IIRC Bloodboil is a dual wielder but I am not sure if he has the dual wield penalty or not. If he has, then you might have not have been at the cap but still gotten away with it because of that. His Arcing Smash is a special that should not be affected by his miss penalty which is why you could have gotten hit by it. Atleast this would explain things - well until someone comes here and corrects me about him not having a miss penalty.
Gurtogg doesn't have a DW miss penalty.
I think he had no penalty when 2.1 hit, the next fix patch then gave him a DW penalty ("Gurtogg is a pushover!"), and the next minipatch or hotfix removed it again ("Gurtogg is too hard!").
That means however that he probably has +19% hit talent which causes melee swings to behave normally but makes him hit-capped on specials like Arcing Smash.
Sounds a bit far-fetched, but Illidan has the same behaviour - his Shear cannot miss and he doesn't have a higher miss rate on normal attacks.
Do you have a log to check whether Arcing Smash did miss you? Or if there were no parries or no dodges or something?
Thats the hit log for me from last night, I see Dodges/Parrys/hits for Arcing smash but no misses. No other normal melee hit lands on me. I do eat an occasional Acidic Wound. Also when Ejected while I can avoid the associated strike, I always eat the 1000 damage effect unless its Absorbed. I should be capped but there could be gaps occasionally.
Frankly it was a horrible night, some server issues and new under geared people made it particulary rough. Cheat death basically kept me alive thru the fight. Ill also take the blame for not using defensive abilities enough, but i was trying to keep threat up as people were whining about being capped.
I belive I ate a Arcing Strike at the beginning before the hunters put up Scorpid, that's my fault i should have just led in with evasion. But this all new to me
There were also some threat issues in the fight, the normal MT kept taking threat away from me even though theres no need for him to be that high. I'm going to have to explain this to him, he basically tanked the last minute do to threat issues.
*Edit*
Heres the filter for Arcing Smashs, I took 4 Wow Web Stats
That accounts for the 7 melee hits its got logged for me. Wow Web Stats
And heres where I took 2 Fel Geysers,1 of which was resisted. Wow Web Stats
If the theory of it being a special and pushing Miss off the hit table, then defense rating/insect swarm/scorpid are effectively ignored , all being converted to hits. I did not have Insect Swarm either for this fight.
Last edited by Arioche : 08/29/08 at 10:52 AM.
Reason: Additional Data
After messing around on RAWR today I realized it was possible for druids to reach 100% avoidance without SS or IS. This lead me to consider what all could be done completely solo (have to have kings). I had not seen this previously mentioned on here as being possible, I assume there is something I am missing.
Gear Setup:
Head Thunderheart Cover
Neck Necklace of the Deep
Shoulders Demontooth Shoulderpads
Chest Harness of Carnal Instinct
Waist Thunderheart Waistguard
Legs Leggings of the Immortal Beast
Feet Shadowmaster's Boots
Wrist Thunderheart Wristguards
Hands Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation
Finger1 Delicate Eternium Ring
Finger2 Band of the Eternal Champion
Trinket1 Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch
Trinket2 Shadowmoon Insignia
Back Slikk's Cloak of Placation
MainHand Stanchion of Primal Instinct
Ranged Idol of Terror
After messing around on RAWR today I realized it was possible for druids to reach 100% avoidance without SS or IS. This lead me to consider what all could be done completely solo (have to have kings). I had not seen this previously mentioned on here as being possible, I assume there is something I am missing.
Gear Setup:
Head Thunderheart Cover
Neck Necklace of the Deep
Shoulders Demontooth Shoulderpads
Chest Harness of Carnal Instinct
Waist Thunderheart Waistguard
Legs Leggings of the Immortal Beast
Feet Shadowmaster's Boots
Wrist Thunderheart Wristguards
Hands Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation
Finger1 Delicate Eternium Ring
Finger2 Band of the Eternal Champion
Trinket1 Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch
Trinket2 Shadowmoon Insignia
Back Slikk's Cloak of Placation
MainHand Stanchion of Primal Instinct
Ranged Idol of Terror
All gems are reds except:
5/agi 7 sta - Legs & Shoulders
5 agi/5 hit - Helm & Belt
I entered in the best of the best list I put up on the front page and couldn't reproduce your numbers, even with better equipment. Looks like your Miss rating is WAY too high, and I'm pretty sure it's because you have "Duel Wielding Mob" marked off.
Using the absolute best equipment avaiable to a druid, and assuming Kings+Imp Mark+Elixir+Food+Scroll you get:
Head Quad Deathblow X44 Goggles
Neck Necklace of the Deep
Shoulders Demontooth Shoulderpads
Chest Harness of Carnal Instinct
Waist Belt of Deep Shadow
Legs Leggings of the Immortal Beast
Feet Shadowmaster's Boots
Wrist Thunderheart Wristguards
Hands Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm
Finger1 Delicate Eternium Ring
Finger2 Amber Band of Agility
Trinket1 Shadowmoon Insignia
Trinket2 Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch
Back Cloak of Unforgivable Sin
MainHand Stanchion of Primal Instinct
Ranged Idol of Terror
So you NEED the extras like IS/SS for a Druid to be melee immune - even if you have an improved totem it is still on 96% vs a 73. So you need Scorpid Sting, all consumables, kings, and the agility totem at the very least even with the best of the best equipment.
--edit-- If you are looking to solo, I don't think raid bosses are an option. I would say a Rogue would be best to solo farm heroics or old dungeons given clever uses of trinkets, evasion, ghostly strike, health pots and just plain luck.
Last edited by SeanDamnit : 08/29/08 at 7:47 PM.
Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.
"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh
Reliquary: Phase 1 becomes very easy. And phase 2 and 3 are probably possible as well.
I realize that this is a year late and like a dollar short or something but.
RoS has this nasty aura in phase 1 that makes it quite difficult to reach the avoidance cap, your defense is redused by 500...IE you will have 0 defense while tanking him.
The only reason I know this is because I tried tanking him once in full avoidance gear and I was getting rocked. I think I ended up having around 60-70% avoidance.
Edit: Is there some sort of mod that will keep track of my avoidance via buffs on myself (including procs) and debuffs?
Last edited by Pyriana : 08/31/08 at 5:13 AM.
Reason: Grammar and added question
I realize that this is a year late and like a dollar short or something but.
RoS has this nasty aura in phase 1 that makes it quite difficult to reach the avoidance cap, your defense is redused by 500...IE you will have 0 defense while tanking him.
The only reason I know this is because I tried tanking him once in full avoidance gear and I was getting rocked. I think I ended up having around 60-70% avoidance.
Edit: Is there some sort of mod that will keep track of my avoidance via buffs on myself (including procs) and debuffs?
And next time you try avoidance tanking RoS P1, make sure that you face him away from the raid so noone parry-hastes him (you can stop attacking as well since there is no aggro). The difference between people attacking him from the front, especially during enrage, and attacking him from the back is quite huge.
Thanks, that tank totals thing is pretty much what I've been looking for.
As for the parry haste thing, yeah at the time no one was attacking from the front, however I was attacking because I didn't realize at the time that the aura was -500 defense, otherwise I would have been at like 105%ish avoidance, having 0 defense instead of 387 is a pretty big deal. However I imagine it's not insurmountable for a rogue.
Here's a picture of my full avoidance set on RoS, though looking at my agility (it's normally over 1100), I believe I'm missing kings and grace of air, but this is with both evasion and the pocket watch activated, just to see how high it would go.
Since the rogue kit seems to be taking a while, I've taken some time to put together a big post. Random Ravings of Warcraft: Rogue tanking 101(.8)
I may have made a few mistakes here 'n there, but on overall it should be quite useful.
Hopefully you'll be able to use some of that for a nice gear list.
Max available avoidance that I can see (without using cooldowns or procs) appears to be ~112.73%
Sunwell is still impossible (-25% evasion), and with the next patch we'll lose another 2% due to insect swarm no longer stacking.
-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.
Since the rogue kit seems to be taking a while, I've taken some time to put together a big post. Random Ravings of Warcraft: Rogue tanking 101(.8)
I may have made a few mistakes here 'n there, but on overall it should be quite useful.
Hopefully you'll be able to use some of that for a nice gear list.
Max available avoidance that I can see (without using cooldowns or procs) appears to be ~112.73%
Sunwell is still impossible (-25% evasion), and with the next patch we'll lose another 2% due to insect swarm no longer stacking.
I forgot I never filled that in. I got stuff in there now.
Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.
"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh
I think you wanted to put 3 gems in the Faceguard.
And as for the [Umbral Shiv] in main hand, our threat is poor enough as it is, [Rage] I beleive is a better alternative threatwise without losing much in the way of avoidance (2nd best avoidance in slot, next to umbral shiv).
I think I would prefer the twin [Umbral Shiv]s, because rogue tanks barely have enough hit chance on bosses as is. And since being able to hit a target = threat, I believe that [Rage] wouldn't be as good threat wise.
I think this was one of the reasons I avoided making the rogue listin initially - rogues are able to reach 100% without having to use the best gear. I think they get to like 112% or something with the best gear and all buffs/debuffs.
I'm going to keep the list as it is without any compromises for threat - I could spend all day listing the different combinations you can make to try to optimize threat and 100% avoid, so I think it's best for everyone to just evaluate what gear they currently have, and see what sacrifices they can make from there.
Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.
"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh
07/14/08, 2:15 PM
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