I kinda had a feeling that might be the case and almost didn't mention it, that's fine by me. As for the hit issue, yeah in my tanking gear I have 123 hit and it sucks...but personally I believe sinister striking with a non dagger (2.4 multiplier?) is going to return more damage and threat than sinister striking with a dagger (1.7 iirc) with 13 more hit (.82%).
My personal solution to the hit problem is just a little bit more gear and I can interchange gear some, I am already capped even though I'm completely missing one trinket. I feel that getting a bit of expertise like from [Gloves of the Searing Grip] (which sadly I de'd at some point), may in fact be worth the loss in 1.5ish avoidance.
This is all really conjecture that I haven't actually tested but I have run it through spreadsheets and it does show an increase in dps. Which when I attempted to tank Mother Shahraz was my main concern, the raid wasn't able to put out a lot of dps and we ended up wiping (on our best attempt) at like 30% because I got ported on and don't have the hitpoints to survive that nasty blast.
Anyways, sorry for rambling and going off on a tangent. The fact that we can reach ~112% gives us a lot of wiggle room to adjust gear to maximize our threat, and/or even achieve max without mob debuffs (scorpid and insect swarm).
Last edited by Pyriana : 09/04/08 at 3:11 AM.
Reason: Typo and clarification.
Well, maybe someone can come up with the best of the best tps/100% avoid set for rogues and I'll put it up in the front post - or is it too subjective? I hate to admit that I'm not familiar enough with rogue mechanics to make this list myself.
Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.
"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh
I'm not sure if you were assuming a 2 Profession limit or not which would of course disqualify the Helm.
For others' reference, it might be worth considering [Emerald Beholder Eye] of Agility (+60 Agility) and [Tanzanite Pendant] of Eluding (+21 Agility, +21 Dodge Rating) as close substitutes.
So, I'm a druid and just build up a 75,8% dodge set, considering the 25% miss on dual wield mobs, would I be able to tank bosses like Hallazi and Price Malcheezar without being hit by the meelee attacks? Or am I missing something?
Considering we got same dodge in cat/bear, would I be able to tank those in cat form also(I would need heals for the non-meelee dmg)?
So, I'm a druid and just build up a 75,8% dodge set, considering the 25% miss on dual wield mobs, would I be able to tank bosses like Hallazi and Price Malcheezar without being hit by the meelee attacks? Or am I missing something?
Considering we got same dodge in cat/bear, would I be able to tank those in cat form also(I would need heals for the non-meelee dmg)?
Yes you can tank Prince and Halazzi, but remember that Prince doesn't duel weild until phase 2, and that he does shadow word pain shadow nova which will need to be healed.
Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.
"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh
Are you positive? I've used my dodge set on prince, and I don't remember seeing a single hit in any phase. I don't have a WWS, unfortunately.
I'm not positive, no - I'm just basing this on info I read when my guild first started running prince so long ago. I don't see it mentioned on WoWWiki anymore, so it may have been just an assumption based on the animation and damage levels between the two phases
Looking at some random WWS, the Miss rate is lower than it should be - 5% base, 20% duel wield penalty, + defense bonuses to +miss should put it over 25%, but most with enough data (go to the end of the list) are around 21% for the whole fight. That could be because 40% of the fight has a normal miss rate.
Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.
"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh
Has anyone done any thorough testing on how Sinister Calling (Rogue +15% agi) and Blessing of Kings stack?
I've read quite a few say it's multiplicative so 20 agi which normally is 1% dodge becomes 1x1.15x1.1 = 1.265% dodge correct?
But over the weekend while I was playing with my tanking set, I found that 20 agi gave me exactly 1.25% dodge. Not even any rounded values of 1.26% or 1.27%.
Is this enough to conclude that they stack additively? 1 x (1 + 0.15 + 0.1) = 1.25% dodge
I can't comment on Sinister Calling and Kings specifically, but I did do some investigation of Kings and Vitality a while back (here) and concluded that those abilities, at least, stack multiplicatively, but with some funky rounding that can skew the observed results. Based on that, I would guess that Sinister Calling probably works the same way, with rounding errors accounting for the variations you're seeing.
Has anyone done any thorough testing on how Sinister Calling (Rogue +15% agi) and Blessing of Kings stack?
I've read quite a few say it's multiplicative so 20 agi which normally is 1% dodge becomes 1x1.15x1.1 = 1.265% dodge correct?
But over the weekend while I was playing with my tanking set, I found that 20 agi gave me exactly 1.25% dodge. Not even any rounded values of 1.26% or 1.27%.
Is this enough to conclude that they stack additively? 1 x (1 + 0.15 + 0.1) = 1.25% dodge
I would assume it stacks multiplicative like other talents do. However, rounding does not occur based on your total agility, but on a per-buff basis. This could make it appear to have a different multiplier.
For example, base Grace of Air gives 77 agi. This would go to 77 x 1.15 x 1.1 = 97.405 => 97 agi. Unfortunately, if you have multiple buffs that all give agility (elixir/food/scroll/motw), the "extras" are all discarded.
Again, I'm pretty sure each buff is rounded individually. Base stats (racial) are also increased separately. For equipment, it is based on the total stats of all gear. I'm not sure if enchants are included or separate.
It just struck me as an odd coincidence to get exactly 1.25%. The only buff I had on was kings. Ate a Warp Burger for 20 agi, and using the Avoidance Macro, it reported exactly 1.25% more avoidance than it did before.
It is possible for buffs to be treated differently?
It's possible, but it strikes me as somewhat unlikely. What was your agility and dodge before and after the warp burger?
Agility: 163 + 681 = 844 agility
With Sinister Calling: 970 agility
With Kings: 1067 agility, 69.16% dodge.
- Looking at these numbers more carefully yes it should be multiplicative. Additive would be floor(163*1.25) + floor(681*1.25) = 1054 agi
With Warp Burger (20): 1092 agility, +25 agi; 70.41% dodge, +1.25%.
- Yea I think I can see the rounding error here. 20x1.1x1.15 = 25.3. 25/20 = 1.25% dodge.
- In this case, gets same value if applied to original agi, (844+20)x1.1x1.15 = 1092.96
- Separating base agi gets the same value, (187 + floor(681+20)x1.15)x1.1 = 1092.3
Sorry for the false alarm there. I took a few more data points while I was at it, all with Kings. But the problem is, I can't seem to arrive at the agility value using the same method of calculations for all 3 cases.
With Warp Burger (20) and Agi Scroll (20): 1118 agi, +51 agi; 71.71% dodge, +2.55%
- 40x1.1x1.15 = 50.6 If Blizz rounds down, then this is off. But if the buff is applied to original agility, then it makes sense again, (844+40)x1.1x1.15 = 1118.26 agi
- If it were to round down buff by buff, then it'd be 25.3 + 25.3 = 50 agi, which is short
- Separating base agi gets (187 + floor(681+40)x1.15)x1.1 = 1117.6
With Agi Elixir (35) and Warp Burger (20): 1136 agi, +69 agi; 72.61% dodge, +3.45%
- But if we do the same thing here, (844+55)x1.1x1.15 = 1137.235 agi, that's too much. In this case, it'd have to be 55x1.1x1.15 = 69.575 agi
- If it were to round down buff by buff, then it'd be 44.275 + 25.3 = 69 agi, which matches here.
- Separating base agi gets the value, (187 + floor(681+55)x1.15)x1.1 = 1136.3
With Agi Elxir (35) and Warp Burger (20) and Agi Scroll (20): 1162 agi, +95 agi; 73.91% dodge, +4.75%
- Here it's off again if we do the stacking straight to the buff, 75x1.1x1.15 = 94.875 agi. And it's fine if it's the original agi, (844+75)x1.1x1.15 = 1162.535 agi
- If it were to round down buff by buff, then it'd be 44.275 + 25.3 + 25.3 = 94 agi, which is short again
- Separating base agi gets, (187 + floor(681+75)x1.15)x1.1 = 1161.6, which is also short
Well, lets try the same approach that worked for Vitality and Kings: applying Sinister Calling to gear and base stats separately, and rounding the former but not the latter before applying Kings:
Base: 163 * 1.15 = 187.45
With 681 agility (base): 681 * 1.15 = 783.15, rounds to 783; 783 + 187.45 = 970.45, which gives the correct 970. Applying Kings gives 970.45 * 1.1 = 1067.495, which gives the correct 1067.
With a Warp Burger and Agi Scroll, we have 721 base Agi; 721 * 1.15 = 829.15, which rounds to 829. So pre-Kings agi is 829 + 187.45 = 1016.45; applying Kings, we have 1016.45 * 1.1 = 1118.095, which matches the observed 1118.
With Agi pot and Agi Scroll, base Agi is 736; 736 * 1.15 = 846.4, rounds to 846; total pre-Kings is 846 + 187.45 = 1033.45; 1033.45 * 1.1 = 1136.795, which rounds down to 1136 - again matching observations.
With all 3 buffs, base Agi is 756; 756 * 1.15 = 869.4, rounds down to 869; total pre-Kings is 1056.45; 1056.45 * 1.1 = 1162.095, which rounds down to 1162 agi, again matching observations.
So, looks to me like Sinister Calling and Kings stacks the exact same way that Vitality and Kings do - multiplicatively, but with some funky rounding.
Does this work for both the Troll and Lynx form? I obviously don't have a hit immune gear set as Warrior but I remember trying it a few months ago in my full avoidance set just for fun and one of his forms barely or never landed a hit while the other form did. Problem is, I just can't remember which form was doing what so if someone who tanked him recently could clarify this for me then that would be really appreciated! Also, what about his Saber Lash? Does the DW penalty affect his special?
Does this work for both the Troll and Lynx form? I obviously don't have a hit immune gear set as Warrior but I remember trying it a few months ago in my full avoidance set just for fun and one of his forms barely or never landed a hit while the other form did. Problem is, I just can't remember which form was doing what so if someone who tanked him recently could clarify this for me then that would be really appreciated! Also, what about his Saber Lash? Does the DW penalty affect his special?
Not too sure if I can answer your question, but you should get a hit immune set. Warriors CAN do it with Sunwell gear - get on it!
Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.
"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh
With patch 3.0 coming up, it looks like 100% avoidence will no longer be possible for any class.
Any explanation for that ?
I just logged to beta realm:
2% miss lost because of scorpid sting - insect swarm no longer stacks
and ~0.25% dodge lost because of the scroll of agility V nerf (down to 15 agi - was 20)
But 1% parry gained because they buffed the talent so its a little bit more than 1.25% missing compared to live realm but that's not a problem.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/. Dodge and parry have diminishing returns(which should be in effect even at 70). Also I believe there is some change to the agl to dodge ratio(not 100% sure on that)
Well, it's certainly not going to be possible at 80 with the stat scaling - that's been obvious basically since this was first proposed. But that's not what he said - he said in patch 3.0, i.e. at level 70.
I was kind of hoping to keep my rogue at 70 and continue to get the gear so I can accomplish my dream of solo tanking Nalorakk. I'll be sad if Blizzard's official response to avoidance tanking is "no, don't do it".
Uhm, i disagree with the proposition about "not being possible". I am more on the line of "More difficult".
Scaling stats are giving diminishing returns, but stat bonuses will be surely higher.
If this trend will be kept by Blizzard, and scaled proportionally, i think the actual dodge levels will be (almost) reached at the time of the end instances (that is, the actual Zul'Aman-MH-BT).
The gap? For Rogues, Vitality could be an answer (remember, you have 10 talents more to spend). Maybe some proportional meta-gem on agility like that on intellect could be developed.
We have to wait for the actual live expansion to see if the 100% avoidance will be reached or not.
The massive diminishing returns they are putting into the avoidance system means not only will there be no one 100% avoidance tanking in the expansion, but also the moment 3.0 hits the current 100% avoidance sets won't work any more even at level 70. You'll still be able to be unhittable for short amounts of time due to abilities like evasion, but not passively.
09/04/08, 12:28 PM
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