I've been wondering about this a bit further, and was looking through the various gear lists people had posted for avoidance tank rogues, and I keep wondering why everyone chooses not to activate the +12agi metagem?
The Relentless Earthstorm Diamond needs at least 2 of each colours, so going from a full suite of red (agility) gems, we need to replace two with purple and two with orange. Going from 8agi to hybrid 4agi/4something gems n 4 slots is a loss of 16agi, adding in the metagem adds 12 back, giving a loss of 4 agi. However, the Engineering goggles have a blue slot and a +4agi socket bonus, so putting one of the purples (say, a shifting nightseye) in there gives an additional 4 agi, equalling out with what we had before. Except that now we also have 3% more crit damage, and a few other bonuses from the hybrid gems (the odd bit of stamina and hit, perhaps). If we go a little further and use heroic gems like [Glistening Fire Opal] then it will pull ahead in the avoidance stakes too.
Of course, once you start using BT gems like in Left's example, you'll start losing out, but when dealing with normal blue gems, it definately seems worth it to me. You also then can try and activate a few other socket bonuses if they're worthwhile.
Edit:
Regarding how useful said rogue tank could be, I think we need to worry less about rogues soloing bosses, but just how useful they'd be in a normal, balanced raid. Sure, Malchezaar doesn't do only physical, but he does mostly physical. With every other Shadow Nova being cloaked, a rogue tank would take minor damage every minute (with 15% AoE avoidance possible), plus the occasional shadow word pain (which can be dispelled). This vastly reduces healing required, and you can stack more dps. Threat is the most obvious issue with using a rogue tank, but with less healing required you can give them enough time to build a bit of a threat lead, and without salvation they should do 'ok'. Also, the rogue tank build presumeably contains setup, and with a dodge stat somewhere around 80%, that's quite a lot of combo points extra. With relentless strikes (I think the optimum build is probably 11/10/40) that's quite a few extra specials you can land.
And if threat is still an issue, what about those fights where it's less important? How about a rogue tanking the Shaman on Karathress? Our guild kills the hunter first, giving the shaman tank a while to build aggro. If he can't be hit by WF, it's only the searing totem and shocks to be healed through, and some of those can be cloaked, meaning much smoother damage to be healed. Or how about Maulgar? A rogue could tank Maulgar to 50% without ever needing a heal, whilst the entire raid deals with the other 4. Once he hits 50, have the warriors start taunting, and you've got plenty of healers to cope with his (now) reduced damage.
Sure, none of these examples are that difficult (for most people), but the point I'm making is that whilst the avoidance rogue might not be 'omg I soloed Gruul' broken, they could just be normally useful.
Afaik the 102.4% is said to be for +3 mobs. However I've yet to see someone reliably claim anything regarding the *base* hit chances of mobs of various levels.
Not quite on topic, but what the heck: there's no better thread and the subject doesn't quite warrant a new one.
For warriors who'd like passive crushing immunity, Zul'Aman appears to have been a godsend for those of us in the SSC/TK region of progress. I did some mucking about in the spreadsheet after obtaining [Signet of the Last Defender] and [Pauldrons of Stone Resolve] on a ZA run - both of which seem to have been made for uncrushability - and came up with the following little setup. It's balanced for me - Tauren, typically with BoK, MotW and Scorpid Sting as my only avoidance buffs in raids - however it shouldn't be a stretch for non-Tauren or someone with more significant avoidance buffing to adapt.
Socket 12 (15 if purchasable or otherwise obtainable, 'course) stamina gems everywhere as normal. About the only thing I'd personally do differently if creating an ordinary sta-heavy boss set is replacing the Scarab with another Card: in fact l could do just that and go with a 15 block rating enchant on the shield to make up the difference.
Anyhoo, all of this particular gear set save the Kael necky is readily accessible for anyone doing T5 content and gives an unbuffed total of 507 defense, 17001 armour, 16531 health (Tauren, still. Whatever 1133 stamina is worth for the rest of you), 48.85% dodge/parry/miss chance and 47.58% block chance. Add BoK, MotW and Scorpid Sting to end at 102.60% total dodge/parry/miss/block. With typical raid health buffs - Commanding Shout, Titans, Blood Pact, Fortitude, Crawdad & BoK - buffed Tauren health ends up at 22 254.
This is pretty damnably awesome compared to the very harsh trade-offs required to reach uncrushability in pre-ZA T5-level gear where you'd be looking at no more than 14k unbuffed health tops. Threat will take a slight hit compared to more hit & expertise-heavy gear but block value remains respectable and although overall avoidance is certainly lower than in a T6-based uncrushability set certainly it's neither painfully low nor so high that lack of rage is a significant problem. All in all ZA has made passive uncrushability combined with a significant health pool available at a much earlier point than previously possible for warriors. Creating a balanced gearset with uncrushability is now definitely worth a look for those of us playing in SSC/TK or early MH/BT.
I think each list for druids so far has had a couple of omissions, and it seems that >100% avoidance is indeed possible with the full set of buffs and debuffs helping.
Please correct me if any of the base assumptions are invalid.
Player base dodge chance = 0 (Of this in particular I am unsure)
Boss base miss chance = 5%
Druid base agility = 75
For a druid, 14.7059 agi yields 1% dodge (12.9796 agi on gear -> 14.7059 agi with talent + buff)
For any player, 18.9231 dodge rating yields 1% dodge
Player has 350 defense skill before gear
For any player, 2.36 defense rating yields 1 defense skill
Defense skill is floored
For any player, 1 defense skill yields 0.04% chance to be missed + 0.04% chance to dodge
Against a boss, 15 defense skill is negated (Need to clarify this, too, as the 5% boss base miss chance drawn from other posts already ignores the 14% to-be-missed that would come from 350 defense skill)
Based on the above values, I had lootzor do a search with these ratings:
1 agi = 0.0770 (edited: previous 0.0679 didn't account for Survival of the Fittest + Blessing of Kings)
1 def rating = 0.0339
1 dodge rating = 0.0528
which turned up the following selections. Most of them have been listed already, but not all together. The best 2 rings are listed, since the best is unique-equipped.
(edit 12.12 03:43 Lootzor does not show the items with random enchantments. A bit of Wowhead digging turned up some even better cheap alternatives.)
Player buffs:
Feral Swiftness talent: 4% dodge
Night-Elf Racial passive: 1% dodge
Mark of the Wild: + (14 * 1.35 = 18.9) all stats
Grace of Air totem: + (7 * 1.15 = 88.55) agi [Elixir of Major Agility]: +35 agi [Warp Burger]: +20 agi [Scroll of Agility V]: +20 agi (Comments by others indicate that the scroll stacks with all these buffs. I know it is erased by the [Idol of Terror] proc.) ((edit 01.08) 2.3.2 Patch Notes: Idol of Terror: The triggered agility from this item no longer overwrites other agility buffs.) [Embrace of the Dawn] used by a party member: +10 agi [Moonglade Cowl] 2-piece bonus kept up by a friendly caster: +35 dodge rating
Survival of the Fittest talent: * 1.03 all stats
Blessing of Kings: * 1.1 all stats
Mob debuffs:
Scorpid Sting: 5% miss
Insect Swarm: 2% miss
(Base agi + gear + additive buffs) * multiplicative buffs -> 1065.5 agi (1074.59 for an enchanter) -> 72.456% dodge (73.072% for an enchanter)
204 dodge rating -> 10.780% dodge
96 def rating -> 40.68 defense skill, which, floored & subtracting for boss-level difference -> 25 defense skill -> 1% dodge + 1% to-be-missed
Night-Elf Racial + Feral Swiftness -> 5% dodge
Base miss + Scorpid Sting + Insect Swarm -> 12% miss
I just glanced upon this, and had I the money/time, I know that I would try the rogue version just to see how many attempts by a mob and a boss it took before I actually got hit with 102%+.
But more to the point, has anyone actually TRIED this? I know it's quite a full scale event, but if a druid/rogue had the majority of this stuff already, have a few of the same faction go to the PTR with him/her and load up with the 10agi gems and enchants and gold to buy other items without spending their own money. Be really cool to find out how it fairs against kara/ssc/tk/gruul bosses.
I am fairly close on the gear Jester. I'll have to try to copy over to the PTR (something I haven't done in eons) and go gem crazy if there are gems to be gotten to do this. Unfortunately, I still need the boots from Shattered Halls and some kind of acceptable helm option. But I have both trinkets (scarab + watch)*, both rings (tidewalker + crafted)**, skulkers, deep shadow***, auchenai tunic, swiftstrike***, dextrous gloves, deathmantle shoulders, crafted neck, badges cloak, sun eater, opera dagger, prince bow. I could use the assassination helm and see just how far it takes me, I suppose. Be nice to actually have the boots and then do the test run on the ptr with a pile of rubies even. I'm not an engineer and really don't intend to go back to it after dropping it for JC in TBC. My ZA team is on Hex Lord right now. Hopefully when we get to Zul'jin we'll get lucky early with the Grimgrin, as that'll solve the helm problem in spades.
I've recruited most of "Team Gruul" in that it requires a hunter, shaman, paladin, druid (preferably with 2 piece moonglade, certainly with insect swarm). Probably going to drag a bit of extra ranged dps to make it take a tad less time. Logistically, getting Maulgar cleared and then throwing people out may prove a bit challenging. Not that many guiilds left that only can kill HKM yet fail on Gruul.
* The 8 billionth Kara run yielded the watch.
** Yes, I spent actual dkp on the trinket off Hydross and the ring off Morogrim just to do this. No I didn't spend a lot, since our tanks were already in possession of said items.
*** 3000ish gold to purchase bold way ahead of when they'd have been free, but honestly these were for raiding
------------------------------------Agility-----Defense-----Dodge-----Parry-------Total Av.
Facegaurd of Endless Watch-------0-----------46----------84----------0-----------6.77
Darkeners grasp--------------------0-----------27----------23----------0-----------2.58
Warbringer--------------------------15----------40----------51----------0-----------5.22
Phoenix Wing-----------------------0-----------22----------39----------0-----------3.18
Onslaught--------------------------37-----------45----------30---------28----------6.28
Eternium Shell----------------------0------------36----------26---------0-----------3.20
Royal Guantlets of Silvermoon---15-----------24----------52----------0-----------4.47
Belt of the Invulnerable-----------0------------22----------39----------29---------4.40
Praetorian Leguards---------------0------------0-----------83.923-----43----------6.25
Myrmidon Treads------------------0------------48----------39----------0-----------4.50
Elementium Band of the Sentry--4------------18----------25----------0-----------2.37
Ring of Sundered Souls-----------4------------20----------19----------0-----------2.15
Shadowmoon Insignia-------------0-----------36-----------32---------0-----------3.52
Scarab of Displacement-----------0-----------42-----------0-----------0-----------2.13
Sun Eater--------------------------20----------13-----------19----------0-----------2.33
Blade of the Unrequinted---------20----------0------------30----------0-----------2.25
Barrel Bladed Long Rifle----------16----------0------------20----------0-----------1.59 Sub Total--------------------131------439--------611.923--100------63.20
Base Agility and Dodge Racial---101----------------------18.923------------------4.37
Anticipation Talent----------------------------47.32---------------------------------2.40
5%miss,10% parry, 0.75% dodge--------------------------------------------------15.75 Sub Total--------------------232----------------------------------------85.71
Blessing of kings-----------------23.2-----------------------------------------------0.77
Mark of the wild------------------18.9-----------------------------------------------0.63
Grace of Air-----------------------92.4-----------------------------------------------3.08
Elixir of Major agility--------------35------------------------------------------------1.17
Warp Burger----------------------20-------------------------------------------------0.67
Scroll of Agility V-----------------20-------------------------------------------------0.67
Scorpid Sting-------------------------------------------------------------------------5.00
Insect Swarm-------------------------------------------------------------------------2.00 Total Avoidance---------------------------------------------------------99.70
This is based against a lvl 70 mob. So still 2.7% short of 102.4% Avoidance.
A few things I did different from the original post.
Used the Helmet from Doomwalker instead of Illidans Helmet.
Used Elementium Band of the Sentry as ring instead of the Defender rep ring.
Used Blade of Unrequinted in Offhand, gives slight advantage over the Shield w/ enchant.
Used 8 Defense on Boots instead of 12 Agility.
So as far as i can tell it is impossible to become unhittable.
I had to use - for spaces, sorry if its tough to read.
Amazing the returns you get for the last few points - but when considering bosses there is still almost 3% to go, even through these extravagant means.
I know the goal is 100 percent avoidance, however with the gear listed by Brodnax could a warrior successfully tank a 25 man instance (bosses in particular)? It seems that any boss that does mainly single target physical damage (tidewalker, prince malchazaar, etc) a set like this would be extremely useful. Would the tank have enough stamina to survive the few physical hits they would take (plus other fight specific damage) and be able to generate enough threat so that DPS could beat the enrage timers?
Also, how does the cooldown on enchants like mongoose work? If you were to dual wield with double mongoose and then cycle to another weapon with mongoose after the proc, could you keep it up indefinitely by cycling in a new weapon with every proc?
If I'm not mistaken, the last 2.7% on the loot table would be crushing blows, so 1 out of every 37 hits or so would be a crush. The probability of taking back to back crushing would be .0729% or one in every 1371 hits (I think I did that math right) which means it would happen every so often (considering the number of times a tank gets hit by a boss level mob over the course of a raid night). I think the threat issue would be the hardest to overcome.
What if you calculate for 25 seconds (average, assuming you can't rotate weapons to keep the buff up) uptime of mongoose each minute. Though you would lose 40 agility, would it increase or decrease the average chance to be hit.
Assuming you reach this 99.7% out of 102.4% avoidance, every hit that lands will be a crushing blow. I think a tank with the gear I posted would have roughly 17-8k hps buffed and could survive a double crush on almost all bosses. I know I have been parried 4 times in a row with an expertise rating of 20...So yes it will happen.
The good thing about this is...a tank doesnt have to spec far into protection at all. This requires simply 5 points in parry talent (arms) and 5 points in anticipation (protection). It would be quite interesting to see if it was possible to utilize this in a tanking sense. Althought I do believe speccing devastation is the only reliable way to hold agro (rather then trying a dps build with tank gear), but again, you are using 2 1-handed weapons, so you will pull alot more rage then you would from simply using a sword n board.
Theres no question they wouldnt be able to generate near the agro they would in a normal tanking scenario, however, the reduction of such damage via avoidance can reduce the healers in the raid by up to 3-4 for certain bosses. So you can gain up to 3-4 more dps versus a drop in threat generation. So the real question is obviously, how much threat would the tank acquire.
After thinking about it, I'm not sure what type of build would produce the most threat...a deep devastation build, an endless rage build with mortal strike, or even a hybrid build utilizing many of the damage abilities in the fury tree and possibly going down to the 1handed weapon spec in the arms tree.
The gear I listed used 20agility enchants to each 1hand weapon, mongoose was not even used.
Yes, the Ogrilla shield could be used to totally eliminate crushing blows... good point. I was simply posting the maximum avoidance possible, without thinking of having someone try and tank a boss with it. The avoidance reduction from using the shield instead of the offhand weapon is very very small.
I was gonna revisit this to see if ZA stuff would make a difference, and to grab anything I may have missed. But it looks like Brodnax got that for me . (though, I did use the Doomwalker helm in my original post :p)
Don't forget about the 35 dodge rating from the druid set. That's another 1.85% avoidance.
And also note that 12 agility is better than 8 defense when you have BoK. It's only a small .08% better according to my spreadsheet, but hey, more is more.
Even more amazing than being immune to physical damage would be convincing the guild to give you 20 crimson spinels.
Either way, it seems inevitable that avoidance will be nerfed somehow.
I'm going with the nerf they used on slow mechanics - remove the exponential returns, rather than reduce "ratings." But we shall see on that, that would be a huge combat mechanic change for hopefully an obvious set of reasons.
For many item slots, one doesn't even need to get especially fancy and can do better with randomly enchanted "of Agility" or "of Eluding" pieces. My list for druids above has been updated to mention these.
I was gonna revisit this to see if ZA stuff would make a difference, and to grab anything I may have missed. But it looks like Brodnax got that for me . (though, I did use the Doomwalker helm in my original post :p)
Don't forget about the 35 dodge rating from the druid set. That's another 1.85% avoidance.
And also note that 12 agility is better than 8 defense when you have BoK. It's only a small .08% better according to my spreadsheet, but hey, more is more.
Ah yes. 12 agility is better then 8 defense, by .03% is what i calculate, but in fact better. I used kings to increased agility when ranking items, but failed to do so on gear.
And the easy way to look up gear to see which piece has the most avoidance is simply using the advanced search type feature given on allakhazam or several other sites.
For instance, Search for all helmets and sort by the following criteria/weight factor:
Blue sockets=.5285
Red sockets=.5285
Yellow sockets=.5285
Dodge rating=.05285
Defense rating=.0507
Agility=.0367
Parry rating=.0423
You could also use include
Block=.1268 if you were looking to become passively immune to crushings.
These are basically the % avoidance weights that apply to each ability respectively. For instance, assuming parry rate=23.6538462 which is what i assumed...23.6538462*.0423=1% parry. Sokets assume to use 10 dodge rating in each socket.
Even more amazing than being immune to physical damage would be convincing the guild to give you 20 crimson spinels.
Either way, it seems inevitable that avoidance will be nerfed somehow.
I'm going with the nerf they used on slow mechanics - remove the exponential returns, rather than reduce "ratings." But we shall see on that, that would be a huge combat mechanic change for hopefully an obvious set of reasons.
One of the clear disadvantages of an avoidance build is the lack of rage gained. If you avoid everything you will be relying purely on your physical attacks to generate rage and this can have its own negative side effects. At 100% avoidance the main tank would not take damage and the fight could last longer, but the majority of boss fights today only have the MT taking about 40% of the total raid damage, so you could still have sustainability issues.
Ideally they will implement a mechanic that allows warriors to gain rage when they avoid attacks, but this wouldn't be happening until the expansion.
Hm, Here is a question...We always speak of this 102.4% to attain crushing blow immunity...ie you need 102.4% avoidance+block to not be crushed. However...I think you would only need 101.8% avoidance to not get hit at all and not the 102.4%.
Level 73 bosses that attack us, actually reduce our chance to parry, dodge, miss and BLOCK by (5levels of defense*3 levels of seperation) 15 skill lvls at conversion rate of .04 which results in a reduction to each of our 4 stats by 0.60%. SO to compensate, we would need to achieve 102.4% avoidance to cover the reduction of .60% to parry, dodge, miss and Block to not be crushed.
Since we are trying to not get hit, the block reduction is irrelevant. We would need to attain 101.8% dodge+parry+miss to not get hit at all.
Even more amazing than being immune to physical damage would be convincing the guild to give you 20 crimson spinels.
Either way, it seems inevitable that avoidance will be nerfed somehow.
I'm going with the nerf they used on slow mechanics - remove the exponential returns, rather than reduce "ratings." But we shall see on that, that would be a huge combat mechanic change for hopefully an obvious set of reasons.
I would assume that a similar system to resists are armor would be much simpler and much more palatable to implement -- total miss/parry/dodge from gear and standard buffs capped at 75%. Of course, the complexity in that is not making it break evasion, moroe's stopwatch, etc.
I say more palatable because this would only affect insane dodge stacking, instead of nerfing everyone a little bit to keep a handful of people from making insane dodge stacking viable.
11/06/07, 9:58 AM
. (though, I did use the Doomwalker helm in my original post :p)
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