Interesting observation:
The observed dodge and miss rate almost match the theoretical ones.
The parry rate was obviously truncated.
And this I find somewhat odd, because parry for me is more valuable than (mob)miss and dodge.
If I had to choose, I'd go for the following preferance: parry>miss>dodge
Very interesting. I had always assumed that " miss > parry > dodge > block " in terms of avoidance priority ("first to fall off combat table"), because parry benefits you by hasting your next attack, and is (as a result) a more expensive stat.
Thanks for doing the tests! Now we just need a combination of gear and support classes to reproduce the results against a level 73 mob.
There is a level 73 elite in far western nagrand up in the flying only area where some of the Netherdrake faction quests take place. He is your easiest testing ground outside of Attumen or the bear boss in ZA.
From the tests so far it seems that perfect avoidance is possible. One of the next questions at hand, in my oppinion, is how much threat a rogue can generate(or, how much dps a "tanking" spec provides). A big chunk of this can be done by already existing gear spreadsheets. From what I've seen so far the dps drop due to gear and spec are quite substantial. I do not believe that spreadsheets take boss block and parry into account. The wildcard that I currently have big hopes in is setup, which is not properly modeled (as discussed earlier in this thread).
I'm currently trying to get a grasp on the effectiveness of setup. The gear setup that I use for calculations provides 78.4% dodge. Setup procs off 45% of all dodges which would mean that 1 combo point is generated every 2.84 enemy attacks.
Now the big question that I have is: are the attack speeds of raid mobs documented somewhere? Furthermore, how will the 12.6% parry that my gear gives me affect the attack speed ?
I'd be gratefull for any pointers.
For the record of this thread, I'm currently only waiting on my GL to be sufficiently persuaded to cough up the Last 8 Spinels I need. There are 2 upgrades that I can see (at least that are available, there's a leather quest reward that is no longer available to me)
It wont work against Illidan, if I read correctly, shear is un-missable, but I suppose if he can't hit you, the only way of dying is shear + fire damage or parasite.
Damn, Boevis, you'll beat me to it. I'm actually quite a bit away from the t6 shoulders, bracers, boots, and Shadowmoon Insignia, sadly, as well as missing the proper level gems (been stuck with a couple guilds that stopped progression/broke, and very cautious (slow) picking a new home) but I have much of the rest in place and will try some SSC boss tanking with perhaps 92% avoidance when allowed.
(I also have just the level 68 staff so far and keep checking the Auction House for a 69-70.)
I think experience even with extremely high but incomplete avoidance should be interesting.
Have you tried petitioning a GM to return the vendored quest reward?
well, the current gear setup I'm calculating with puts me at 12.5% parry which works out to roughly 1 parry ever 9 mob attacks ... that does not happen all that often (I'd guess once every 10 to 20 seconds, depending on boss attack speed)
It wont work against Illidan, if I read correctly, shear is un-missable, but I suppose if he can't hit you, the only way of dying is shear + fire damage or parasite.
I have a screenshot of dodging Shear, though I guess it might not be able to "miss". As you said, my main concern is the flame crash as this is clearly a very low hp set.
Goedel - I picked a different item from the quest, so I doubt they'd reset my ability to choose.
I tried that on about 4 GM's for my mark of tyranny (I was a moonkin when I did the quest) and no, they won't switch it out.
Boevis: Are you at 103% avoidance for all bosses, or are you counting dual wield's miss rate? Even if getting to 103 is very hard, the ~80 for dual wielding mobs should be fairly easy? Could you make a dodge video for dual wielding bosses? Illidan would be the most impressive, but any other raid boss would work.
I have a screenshot of dodging Shear, though I guess it might not be able to "miss". As you said, my main concern is the flame crash as this is clearly a very low hp set.
Goedel - I picked a different item from the quest, so I doubt they'd reset my ability to choose.
Try petitioning again. Policy is constantly changing, you never know. Don't expect a different answer the same day though :P
I find this subject really interesting now that some are so close to actually obtaining such a set. I'm curious to know how practical it's going to end up being, as 1 mistake could be a 1 shot for you with the low stam and armor on most of the pieces. All it will take is the shaman/hunter/balance druid to let their buff/debuff fall off, or the boss could run through you and hit you from behind, which happens fairly often when positioning the mob.
I personally am working on this as we speak, and may be fully functional in about 2-3 weeks. I do not have access to +10 agi gems on the scale as what's being theorycrafted, but I do already have the more difficult pieces (T6 shoulders, chest, Cursed Vision). I could go into a list of gear but I've actually had to settle for easier to get pieces than the perfect set has mentioned.
In any case, on theory, I don't think the full 102%+ avoidance would strictly be needed for tanking. A good trick would be to get as close as possible, and use triggered buffs to close the gap for periods of time, reducing the time you're vulnerable to attack significantly (ghetto shield block). A player could figure out a rotation for Lucky Pocket-Watch, Scarab of Displacement, Evasion, Ghostly Strike to significantly cut down the time they could be hit from physical attacks. I'd go so far as to enchant mongoose over +15 agi to give spurts of untouchability, and then use your cooldown trinkets/abilities around the procs.
I've been looking at as many endgame fights where a rogue tank would actually outperform the standard setup and there are quite a few.
Naj- Not having to heal the MT means more raid healing, less healing needed, and more DPS
Sup- Rogue tank would be less effective on this fight
Shade- Same as Sup, Rogue tanking would not be ideal for this fight
Gorefiend- Same as Naj, little to no healing on the MT means more raid heals
Bloodbloil- A rogue could possibly solo-tank Gurtogg and have higher threat than three tanks trying to play pass-the-aggro. The rogue would be avoiding knockback, and depending on Acidic Wound be avoidable or cloakable, it could be possible. This would free up one or two spots from tanking for more healing or DPS
RoS- In P1, a rogue could single tank through every fixate while ranged pull it down, in P2 no direct damage from RoS means more raid heals means more DPS, in P3 a rogue would be immune to the rage component of Soul Scream's damage, and again less damage to the rogue tank means more raid heals
Mother- A rogue could single tank the entire fight, being essentially immune to regular attacks and saber lash, freeing up two raid spots from offtanking for healing or DPS.
Illidan- A rogue could tank Illidan, it would just be a matter of positioning away from flame crash sites. Shear is avoidable. Threat could possibly be an issue, but most guilds have hunters MDing all the transitions anyways so...
And for kicks...
Hydross- A rogue could single tank Hydross without using resist gear and without ever having to move him from Pure phase. Hydross' melee attack is checked by the one-roll system and even though its damage is magic based, it can still be avoided. Fastest Hydross kill, no transitions, just have to spread out completely and be on the spot to heal those with Water Tomb. This would also free up several offtank spots for more healers/DPS.
Hydross- A rogue could single tank Hydross without using resist gear and without ever having to move him from Pure phase. Hydross' melee attack is checked by the one-roll system and even though its damage is magic based, it can still be avoided. Fastest Hydross kill, no transitions, just have to spread out completely and be on the spot to heal those with Water Tomb. This would also free up several offtank spots for more healers/DPS.
Whilst the tank might be invulnerable, as the marks build up on the raid, wouldn't Water Tomb at 500% start killing people off quite quickly?
Keeping it in poison phase loses you scorpid sting and insect swarm, which is 7% of your avoidance. It also requires you to move Hydross out of pure phase in the first place, which spawns adds which requires tanks. The whole point would be to keep him in pure phase from start to finish. Also, I don't believe the marks go beyond 250%, so just have people wear extra stam gear, since it's not a DPS race without adds to kill...
I personally am working on this as we speak, and may be fully functional in about 2-3 weeks. I do not have access to +10 agi gems on the scale as what's being theorycrafted, but I do already have the more difficult pieces (T6 shoulders, chest, Cursed Vision). I could go into a list of gear but I've actually had to settle for easier to get pieces than the perfect set has mentioned.
How did you figure Cursed Vision would be the best on head slot for evasion tanking? THIS Head Slot comparison with values derived from buffed stats with kings etc figured in, clearey states it worse than 3 other head pieces.
For the sake of completeness, my favourite list would include the top items in THIS list.
How did you figure Cursed Vision would be the best on head slot for evasion tanking? THIS Head Slot comparison with values derived from buffed stats with kings etc figured in, clearey states it worse than 3 other head pieces.
For the sake of completeness, my favourite list would include the top items in THIS list.
I'm not an engineer, and I'm not going to level it. Scratch 1st pick. The helm from ZA doesn't have a meta gem, and while you can get a bit more dodge, getting +3% damage on crits from a meta will help more for threat gen considering I'd be stacking so much agi anyways. Threat is something you're going to have to consider if you're seriously planning on tanking BT bosses. As far as T6 vs Cursed, Cursed is better in nearly every respect, plus there are other classes that want their T6 helm in my guild and I wouldn't pick one up until they did. Never said it was the best, just working with what I have, same as everyone else I'd imagine.
01/03/08, 6:02 PM
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