[RAID] Boss armor values - Page 2

Tinkerfizzle · 10/03/07, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by BoinKlasik

Anybody else surprised at Solarian's fairly high value? I cant figure out why melee seem to perform better on this fight especially when you look at the fact that hijal bosses all have about the same amount of armor.

Well, aside from the odd physical attack on whoever's highest on threat, melee DPS doesn't have to worry at all about threat from start to finish, which is a decent damage cushion compared to other fights.

Edit - too slow

Xeno · 10/03/07, 5:28 PM

Another thing is that mobs don't dodge while casting.

Wunlastri · 10/03/07, 6:00 PM

Really? I DID not know that. Thanks for showing me this thread btw.

enno · 10/03/07, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Tinkerfizzle

Well, aside from the odd physical attack on whoever's highest on threat, melee DPS doesn't have to worry at all about threat from start to finish, which is a decent damage cushion compared to other fights.

Edit - too slow

uh? How exactly do you mean this?
As a rogue I already died to her punching my lights out after I took agro from our tank. (hey, if the raidleader says full nuke, that's exactly what I do) :P Now I just use vanish after blowing all cooldowns in the first 20 or so seconds.

Machinator · 10/03/07, 8:57 PM

What is the source of the difference between the two sets of values?

Aramul · 10/03/07, 9:04 PM

Originally Posted by Machinator

What is the source of the difference between the two sets of values?

Different amounts of base armor (either 7700 or 6200). Lower base armor causes armor penetration to give greater % increases to damage.

Machinator · 10/03/07, 9:53 PM

No I mean why does the first post show VR as having 10700 armor and later another says 8800. Was there a patch in between or is on of the inaccurate?

Angerz · 10/04/07, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Machinator

No I mean why does the first post show VR as having 10700 armor and later another says 8800. Was there a patch in between or is on of the inaccurate?

They got different results in their testing of what their base armor was.

dazed420 · 10/04/07, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Dayve

The answer to that isn't simple; all of those things are dependant on how much armor the boss has before debuffs, as well as what other debuffs are on the boss.

Armor reduction of a level 73 boss attacked by a level 70 player is 37% for 6200 armor, and 42.17% for 7700 armor. Sunder Armor x5 is -2600 armor, Faerie Fire is -610, and Curse of Recklessness is -800.

For a boss with 6200/7700 armor, SA x5 gives a damage increase of 18.36%/16.61%.

If we assume now that the boss has SA stacked x5 on it, adding just FF gives a further 4.5%/4.05% increase, CoR gives 5.99%/5.38%, and with both on they give 11.06%/9.9% increase over just SA.

Armor Penetration is a bit more complex because it comes it varied amounts. If the boss has just SA x5 on it, then the effect of ArP is as follows:
100 ArP: 0.71%/0.64%
200 ArP: 1.43%/1.29%
300 ArP: 2.16%/1.95%
400 ArP: 2.91%/2.62%
500 ArP: 3.66%/3.3%

For a fully debuffed boss (SA x5, FF, CoR) the increase from ArP is:
100 ArP: 0.79%/0.71%
200 ArP: 1.59%/1.42%
300 ArP: 2.41%/2.15%
400 ArP: 3.24%/2.89%
500 ArP: 4.08%/3.64%

I am trying to learn your math, if you could post how you develop your numbers I'd apprecaite it.

I am trying to see the value of ArP for my character, rogue, and to see if there is a point where ArP is on par to AP\HIT or better or worse. Curently I can acquire 1425 ArP self buffed while dropping to 21.5% to hit. I did notice an increase in my dmg on criticals from prior to the ArP usage, about 200-300 on SS crits but without more WWS testing ti is hard to tell if my overall DPS and DMG done due to misses is more of a problem.

Swiftwind · 10/04/07, 1:04 PM

This is my personal version, hope it helps

there are basically 2 main kind of bosses, 6200 and 7700 armored. I'll consider armor penetration effect on the 2 types.

Bosses with 6200 armor
base reduction: 37% (6200 armor)
sundered 5x: 25,43% (3600 armor) - dmg increase for sunder: 18,36%
faerie fire: 22,07% (2990 armor) - additional dmg increase for fire: 4,5%
CoR: 17,11% (2180 armor) - additional dmg increase for CoR: 6,36%

Given the 3 debuffs listed,
Improved Expose in place of sunder: 13,9% (1705 armor) - additional dmg increase for Improved Expose: 3,87%
Armor penetration (175): 15,96% - additional dmg increase for it: 1,39%
Armor penetration (350): 14,77% - additional dmg increase for it: 2,83%
Armor penetration (800): 11,56% - additional dmg increase for it: 6,7%
Serrated Blades talent (560): 13,3 - additional dmg increase for it: 4,6%

Bosses with 7700 armor
base reduction: 42,17% (7700 armor)
sundered 5x: 32,57% (5100 armor) - dmg increase for sunder: 16,61%
faerie fire: 29,84% (4490 armor) - additional dmg increase for fire: 4,05%
CoR: 25,85% (3680 armor) - additional dmg increase for CoR: 5,69%

Given the 3 debuffs listed,
Improved Expose in place of sunder: 23,29% (3205 armor) - additional dmg increase for Improved Expose: 3,45%
Armor penetration (175): 24,92% - additional dmg increase for it: 1,24%
Armor penetration (350): 23,98% - additional dmg increase for it: 2,52%
Armor penetration (800): 21,43% - additional dmg increase for it: 5,95%
Serrated Blades talent (560): 22,81 - additional dmg increase for it: 4,09%

this is from rogue point of view, but looks like we are the majority among theorycrafters

If you wander what you can get to improve armor penetration,

All the ingame stuff available

as fixed stat
[Boundless Agony] (Dagger) - 210
[Choker of Serrated Blades] (Amulet) - 175
[Shady Dealer's Pantaloons] (legs) - 175
[Slayer's Handguards] (hands) - 175
[Slayer's Shoulderpads] (shoulders) - 175
[Stormrage Signet Ring] (ring) - 126

as proc on hit or use ability
[Madness of the Betrayer] (trinket) - chance to proc 300 for 10 scs
[The Night Blade] (dagger) - chance to proc 435 for 10 scs (up to 3x)
[Icon of Unyielding Courage] (trinket) - use: 600 for 20 scs (2 min cd, like 100+ flat)
[Warp-Spring Coil] (trinket) - chance to proc 1000 for 15 scs
[Badge of the Swarmguard] (trinket) - use: chance to proc 200 for 30 scs (up to 6x, 3 min cd)

as rogue talent
Serrated Blades - 560

Summing it up
you can basically achieve
826 (swords, maces, fists) from armor
1036 if you use daggers
1386/1596 if you have Serrated Blades talent

dazed420 · 10/04/07, 1:29 PM

Thank you for the post I think I need to make myself a little more clear.

As a Sword Spec PVE rogue in BT and Mount I am trying to see if the AC reduction gear has a point where the dmg gained is less than say stacking Hit, AP, haste, etc.

AS stated I currently have 1425 ac reduction self buffed ontop of sunderx5, FF, and say CoR on Teron is there a ceiling of ac reduction stacking. Say am I reducing the dmg\dps potential by gaining say another 500 ac reduction while losing say 2-3% hit? Or The opposite is losing 175 ac reduction and gaining 21 hit rating IE the two necks from BT the hit vs the ac reduction which provides the better gain.

I was hoping to gain the math formula so I could try to develop some reasoning on what is good or not.

Thanks

Swiftwind · 10/04/07, 1:37 PM

dmg reduction % = 100*(armor)/(armor-22167,5 +467,5*lvl)
dmg reduction % when the attacker is lvl 70 = 100*(armor)/(armor-22167+467,5*70)=
= 100*(armor)/(armor + 10558)

if that's what you mean

Kewangeder · 10/04/07, 6:59 PM

What are the numbers for Vashj trash (enchanted, tainted, striders, naga)? I could guess from the numbers posted by Dayve. If X/Y/Z could be considered leather/mail/plate, I would guess elementals = leather, striders = mail, naga = mail. But I don't know.

◊ Shaker · 10/04/07, 7:09 PM

X/Y/Z were level 70/71/72.

◊ Lord BEEF · 10/04/07, 9:09 PM

Very useful! Now I can be lazy and not cast faerie fire on Reliquary phase one.

Would it be possible to convert this to an in game mod of some sort?

Dayve · 10/05/07, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by dazed420

Thank you for the post I think I need to make myself a little more clear.

As a Sword Spec PVE rogue in BT and Mount I am trying to see if the AC reduction gear has a point where the dmg gained is less than say stacking Hit, AP, haste, etc.

AS stated I currently have 1425 ac reduction self buffed ontop of sunderx5, FF, and say CoR on Teron is there a ceiling of ac reduction stacking. Say am I reducing the dmg\dps potential by gaining say another 500 ac reduction while losing say 2-3% hit? Or The opposite is losing 175 ac reduction and gaining 21 hit rating IE the two necks from BT the hit vs the ac reduction which provides the better gain.

I was hoping to gain the math formula so I could try to develop some reasoning on what is good or not.

Thanks

Those numbers I gave were obtained using the armor reduction formula as posted by Swiftwind. Just plug in the armor values before and after a given armor reduction and compare the results. The complete formula for calculating such a damage increase is:
% increase = 100 * ( (1 - armor_after/(armor_after + 10558)) / (1 - armor_before/(armor_before + 10558)) - 1)

One thing that is worth noting about armor penetration is that it gets more valuable as you get more of it; the only ceiling is when you are able to reduce your target's armor to 0. If you refer to the numbers I provided, you can see that the jump in percentage increase actually gets higher as you gain more ArP.

@Kewangeder: I've only managed to get the number for the naga (Coilfang Elite). Those have 6800.

Elendril · 10/05/07, 12:54 AM

Is there any impact to armor reduction below zero? I've noticed pretty absurd damage numbers on RoS P1 wearing about 450ish armor ignore - it just because of the base zero armor value, or is there some sort of effect from reducing armor below zero? (ala old -resists)

• Playered · 10/05/07, 12:58 AM

Awsome job for working out the value of -armor

Dayve · 10/05/07, 1:58 AM

Originally Posted by Elendril

Is there any impact to armor reduction below zero? I've noticed pretty absurd damage numbers on RoS P1 wearing about 450ish armor ignore - it just because of the base zero armor value, or is there some sort of effect from reducing armor below zero? (ala old -resists)

I've tested against EoS with and without armor debuffs, and the results indicate that armor reduction has no effect once the target reaches 0 armor.

Zerobaha · 10/05/07, 6:11 AM

I was looking for something like that . Nice work ty.

Greetz

Valerian · 10/05/07, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dayve

One thing that is worth noting about armor penetration is that it gets more valuable as you get more of it; the only ceiling is when you are able to reduce your target's armor to 0. If you refer to the numbers I provided, you can see that the jump in percentage increase actually gets higher as you gain more ArP.

Technically each point of ArP is worth just as much in terms of the time it takes a boss to die, as any other. This is the corollary to the whole "armor has diminishing returns" thing. Each point of armor added (or reduced) will extend (or subtract from) the life of the monster by the same amount of time. Of course, relative to other stats that provide a flat dps increase ArP is better point for point, since all the other stats actually do suffer from diminishing returns in terms of time to boss death. Yes I know its nitpicking but I figured I'd clarify before the whole "armor doesnt have diminishing returns" thing comes up.

amethyst · 10/05/07, 9:51 AM

In short, the more armour penetration value you have, the more it's worth getting.

dazed420 · 10/05/07, 10:12 AM

I agree that it is a value added stat my concern was and still is though that as one gains arp and loses say Hit is the incressed miss rate reducing the value gained from arp. If you sit at 23% to hit and can get 1500 arp that is a really nice setup. But when you start to dip into 17,18, or even 19% and only have say 1000 arp is the trade off worth it? I realize that in the end or at least for now everyone will have a different view on this and perhaps you can't really put a comparison value but it would be nice.

Valerian · 10/05/07, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by dazed420

I agree that it is a value added stat my concern was and still is though that as one gains arp and loses say Hit is the incressed miss rate reducing the value gained from arp. If you sit at 23% to hit and can get 1500 arp that is a really nice setup. But when you start to dip into 17,18, or even 19% and only have say 1000 arp is the trade off worth it? I realize that in the end or at least for now everyone will have a different view on this and perhaps you can't really put a comparison value but it would be nice.

I dont know about the rogue spreadsheet, but Toskk's druid dps calculator is already giving a weighting for ArP. I dont think there'd be an easy way to see the benefit of it vs. say hit/crit/ap without a spreadsheet/calculator to determine the exact values.

Sarlunas · 10/05/07, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Valerian

Technically each point of ArP is worth just as much in terms of the time it takes a boss to die, as any other. This is the corollary to the whole "armor has diminishing returns" thing. Each point of armor added (or reduced) will extend (or subtract from) the life of the monster by the same amount of time. Of course, relative to other stats that provide a flat dps increase ArP is better point for point, since all the other stats actually do suffer from diminishing returns in terms of time to boss death. Yes I know its nitpicking but I figured I'd clarify before the whole "armor doesnt have diminishing returns" thing comes up.

Your claim is that "time to death" is the true metric and therefore DPS has diminishing returns while armour and armour pen are linear in value. I would make the opposite claim that it is in fact "time to death" that has diminishing returns and thus DPS is the better metric.

To me it seems fairly obvious that shaving 10 sec off a short bossfight is generally far more valuable than shaving 10 sec off a very long bossfight, this is assuming 100% time on target.

DPS is what really matters, which means armour does have diminishing returns and armour pen has "increasing returns".