[RAID] Boss armor values - Page 4

Katherine · 10/25/07, 6:38 AM

Disclaimer: Didn't test on 2.3 PTR

The problem that will most likely occure is, in 2.3 Devastate has an innate Sunder Armor, so the 1-Million-Gold question is:
Will a specced 5/5 EA overwrite a Devaste applied Sunder Armor?

◊ songster · 10/25/07, 6:43 AM

Originally Posted by Katherine

Disclaimer: Didn't test on 2.3 PTR

The problem that will most likely occure is, in 2.3 Devastate has an innate Sunder Armor, so the 1-Million-Gold question is:
Will a specced 5/5 EA overwrite a Devaste applied Sunder Armor?

That's one of them. The next (related) is whether Devastate can be used on a mob that has EA up. If Devastate can be used on an Exposed mob, the third question is how much threat it generates.

◊ Ugato · 10/25/07, 7:08 PM

Sorry for the semi-speculation post, but I'm about to leave work and I'd like to leave the thread going in what I believe is the right direction (if anyone would be so kind as to confirm this) - but I heard mention (fairly certain it's in the warrior changes in 2.3 thread) that on a coding level, they've basicly tagged devastate to apply sunder armor as its last function, using precisely the same code as sunder.

If this is true, then it means that the sunders applied via devastate should operate in exactly the same manner as ones applied through normal use of SA. Meaning it will not stack, and EA will overwrite SA.

But I'd also like to point out that nothing really changes about the game as far as the mechanics go. I suppose it's just our understanding of it.

And as a last addition, perhaps I can get someone to do a bit of mathcraft on rogues using imp expose armor and the new hemo (36 damage per hit now)

Indora · 11/01/07, 4:14 PM

the threat devastate loses is around 67, withouth talents+stance (with: 97)
with 1 devastate every 3 seconds (SS, Rev, dev, dev) this is 30 tps or (for rogues) 60 dps

Devastate Testing - 25 October - TankSpot

edit: omg, forgot the extradmg per sunder on the target
35 per sunder, 175 dmg with 5 sunders
a boss with 7700 base armor, imp. EA and FF has 4015 armor and ~25% dmgreduction
another 10% dmgreduction because of defstance
--> 126 dmg --> 183 thread --> 61 tps
(not calculated: DamagePercentBonus, Crits)

30 + 61 = 91 tps
91 / 0.71 / 0.7 = 183 dps for rouges

i think that isn´t a good idea ^^

enia · 11/06/07, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Platina

I put some work on Numbers and my conclusion is that the TimeToDeath or TimeToLife changes linear to +/- Armorclass.

My Blueprints are in an Excel Sheet: http://www.dragonfire.de/theory/AP.xls

My Opponent/Boss hast 7500 AC and 500.000hitpoints. I would like to kill him within 600seconds (TTL).

-7500 AC = 1425,33 NeedDPS
-7000 AC = 1385,86 NeedDPS
-6500 AC = 1346,40 NeedDPS
-6000 AC = 1306,93 NeedDPS
-5500 AC = 1267,46 NeedDPS
-5000 AC = 1228,00 NeedDPS
-4500 AC = 1188,53 NeedDPS
-4000 AC = 1149,06 NeedDPS
-3500 AC = 1109,60 NeedDPS
-3000 AC = 1070,13 NeedDPS
-2500 AC = 1030,67 NeedDPS
-2000 AC = 991,20 NeedDPS
-1500 AC = 951,73 NeedDPS
-1000 AC = 912,27 NeedDPS
-0500 AC = 872,80 NeedDPS
-0000 AC = 833,33 NeedDPS

500 AC compensates EVER 39,47 DPS. The First 500, and the last 500 until the Cap (0) is reached. This is NOT a general universal usable Term!

Conclusion: "The First -AC is as good as the Last -AC". No Stacking, No Boost, nothing special.

How good -AC is on you're current Gear isn't that easy. You must definte/calculate your own "TrueDPS w/o Armor" Value. Then you must decide. More -AC or more AP/Crit/Hit, whatever.

Easy Overview:

(AP + Crit + Hit + Miss + Dodge + Weapon) * (Armor - Armorpierce)

What do you think about this?

While your observations are correct, you focus your conclusion on the absolute difference and not on the relative difference. If you consider the relative difference, you'll realize that it has an increasing return and, furthermore, your relative TTL difference will be the same as your relative DPS increase (+1% dps = -1% TTL). In the case of armor penetration, we're still talking about a difference between 2.77% and 4.52% for 500 armor penetration.

Borodin · 11/07/07, 8:47 AM

If you nip to TankSpot.com now you will see Satrina's re-test of 2.3 Devastate complete with comments on how it interacts with EA (in short you still can't really use EA around a Protection Warrior).

borbes · 11/07/07, 8:58 AM

Using the hunter Beast Lore ability, we've already determined that The Lurker Below has 7685 armor. I think it's safe to assume that Blizzard would be pretty consistant in their base armor values, having one value for low, average, and high armor bosses. So chances are any mob you've calculated to have around 7700 armor actually has 7685 armor.

• Golijov · 11/09/07, 6:09 PM

I'd actually be sort of surprised of those base armor values for low/med/high armor bosses aren't different with each tier of bosses (assuming this is how it works, which it may or may not).

Amorpheus · 11/09/07, 6:57 PM

Well, if boss armor increased by Tier it would just about counter much of the upgrades to physical DPS through higher level loot, while casters would be unaffected.

Analogkid · 11/12/07, 7:21 AM

So does armor still go into the -armor zone (below 0)? I've read it doesn't elsewhere and am looking for any testing.

Borodin · 11/12/07, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Analogkid

So does armor still go into the -armor zone (below 0)? I've read it doesn't elsewhere and am looking for any testing.

Nope, even with all the debuffs mentioned here and current Armour Penetration items you can't reduce any Bosses to 0.

Sarlunas · 11/12/07, 11:05 AM

Of course you can.

sunders+CoR+FF+executioner+T6+neck+SB+rings+WSC+madness=7487

A fair bit higher than 6200, even without executioner it's already very doable. As for if it actually gives any benefit beyond 0 I'm not aware of any testing on this but I would tend to doubt it.

Draya · 11/12/07, 11:23 AM

It should be easy enough to test. The critters in Stormwind and Elwynn should not have any armor. Hit them with a fixed damage attack like hamstring and see if there's any difference in damage when you swap between armor penetration gear and normal gear.

sp00n · 11/12/07, 2:03 PM

Did negative armor ever exist at all?

The only reference I can remember were those summoned felguard demons in BWL who produced absurdly high damage numbers, but in reality had something like a +20% damage taken aura.

Well, at least Serrated Blades won't drop the enemy's armor below zero (tested on 20 armor level 1 wolves in a completely unrelated test).

Xanthi · 11/13/07, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

Did negative armor ever exist at all?

The only reference I can remember were those summoned felguard demons in BWL who produced absurdly high damage numbers, but in reality had something like a +20% damage taken aura.

Well, at least Serrated Blades won't drop the enemy's armor below zero (tested on 20 armor level 1 wolves in a completely unrelated test).

I think this was tested on RoS p1, where he's known to have 0 armor since raid debuffs like sunder/ff did not increase damage dealt to RoS, thus proving that negative armor does nothing for dps.

Borodin · 11/13/07, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Sarlunas

Of course you can.

sunders+CoR+FF+executioner+T6+neck+SB+rings+WSC+madness=7487

A fair bit higher than 6200, even without executioner it's already very doable. As for if it actually gives any benefit beyond 0 I'm not aware of any testing on this but I would tend to doubt it.

Crikey, did not think there was so much ArP available. Interesting

maelstrom808 · 11/21/07, 5:46 AM

Of course you can.

sunders+CoR+FF+executioner+T6+neck+SB+rings+WSC+madness=7487

A fair bit higher than 6200, even without executioner it's already very doable. As for if it actually gives any benefit beyond 0 I'm not aware of any testing on this but I would tend to doubt it.

I guess my question (and I ask because I have no idea) is has it been confirmed that all of the "chance on hit" procs will stack with each other.

koaschten · 11/21/07, 7:59 AM

The only exception will be dual Executioner, which will only refresh itself and not have 2 procs up.

Kreallana · 12/11/07, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Swiftwind

dmg reduction % = 100*(armor)/(armor-22167,5 +467,5*lvl)
dmg reduction % when the attacker is lvl 70 = 100*(armor)/(armor-22167+467,5*70)=
= 100*(armor)/(armor + 10558)

if that's what you mean

Isn't that when you are going against a lvl 70 mob?

I thought it was (armor/(armor+10558))*100 for lvl 70 mobs and for lvl 73 it would be (armor/(armor+11960))*100

Could someone clarify for me, please?

Nite_Moogle · 12/11/07, 1:18 PM

11960 is the correct number when dealing with Boss NPCs.

Kreallana · 12/11/07, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

11960 is the correct number when dealing with Boss NPCs.

Thank you very much.

Sarlunas · 12/11/07, 3:51 PM

From wowwiki:

The 11960 and 10557.5 numbers in the denominator are often confused. The constant is based on the attackers level not the target's level. Use 10557.5 for your attacks (outgoing) and 11960 for damage received.

saedo · 12/27/07, 3:17 PM

I'm curious if there's been any testing on ZA bosses.

◊ Quigon · 12/27/07, 3:48 PM

For moogle and kreallana...

Armor is based on who is doing the hitting.

If you are hitting a boss, you are a level 70.

If the boss is hitting you, boss is level 73.

Also there is a blue post that is well summarized by a post by kalgan in my protection warrior thread. You can search for kalgan in the OP of that thread to see precise values for armor reduction already worked out. This thread has a nice summary of that - but the value of armor penetration is fairly straightforward.

Muphrid · 12/27/07, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Quigon

For moogle and kreallana...

Armor is based on who the individual is hitting. It does not matter if it is the boss swinging or a player swinging.

If you are hitting a boss, you are hitting a level 73.

If the boss is hitting you, the boss is hitting a level 70.

Also there is a blue post that is well summarized by a post by kalgan in my protection warrior thread. You can search for kalgan in the OP of that thread to see precise values for armor reduction already worked out. This thread has a nice summary of that - but the value of armor penetration is fairly straightforward.

With respect, that's not what the character sheet implies, nor does it make a lot of sense. It makes more sense if the damage reduction is based on attacker's level and target's armor. The character sheet is very specific: it states damage reduction from a specific level attacker, whereas such wording would not be necessary if the damage reduction were the same regardless of attacker level.