When ANYTHING is attacking me, (in terms of damage reduction)what should matter is MY level and MY armour. The damage that THEY do is modified by THEIR attack power and other buffs and has NOTHING to do with their targets armour.
It would be totally unreasonable to have this somehow modified by the level of what's attacking me. From a PvP perspective this would REALLY be apparent.
With 10,000 Armor at level 60 you would have DR of 63%. In your world, a level 70 would not only have superior damage and gear, but would also have the advantage of reducing that DR to 48.6%. Imagine being that level 51 in AV??
When ANYTHING is attacking me, (in terms of damage reduction)what should matter is MY level and MY armour. The damage that THEY do is modified by THEIR attack power and other buffs and has NOTHING to do with their targets armour.
It would be totally unreasonable to have this somehow modified by the level of what's attacking me. From a PvP perspective this would REALLY be apparent.
With 10,000 Armor at level 60 you would have DR of 63%. In your world, a level 70 would not only have superior damage and gear, but would also have the advantage of reducing that DR to 48.6%. Imagine being that level 51 in AV??
Forgive me, "sense" in terms of Blizzard's mechanics is seldom the right word.
It simply contradicts what the character sheet wording implies as well as the information on wowwiki.
Armor is based on who the individual is hitting. It does not matter if it is the boss swinging or a player swinging.
If you are hitting a boss, you are hitting a level 73.
If the boss is hitting you, the boss is hitting a level 70.
Also there is a blue post that is well summarized by a post by kalgan in my protection warrior thread. You can search for kalgan in the OP of that thread to see precise values for armor reduction already worked out. This thread has a nice summary of that - but the value of armor penetration is fairly straightforward.
The equations are right, but the text is wrong. As you stated in your post "The protection warrior" the variable "level", is the level of the person that preforms the attack and the "armor" variable is the armor of the struck.
So: If you a lvl 70 is hitting a boss and the equation would look like this:
If the boss a lvl 73 is hitting you: (the usual equation we deal with in the tanking topics)
Edit: My bad your post does not state that, though it should since it is the latter equation that is used for the following graphs
Where the heck are you getting that .6 number from? Regardless, it's totally wrong. To get a reasonable estimate for rogues, I refer you to the first post of the Roguecraft 101 thread - I believe it's about .3 AP. So while Executioner is average, for a rogue, it's worth about 252 AP. Compare to Mongoose, which gives 120 Agility (not AP, agility), which, by that same post, is worth something like 264 AP. The takeaway here is that they're pretty close in quality for rogues.
Multiply the armor pen value by 0.6 to get it's equivalent increase if it were AP.
So 100 Armor Pen =
100 x 0.6 = 60 AP
This assumes you already have a decent amount of AP, and your target has around 3-4k armor.
I am looking to go dual exe on my rogue, I'm not here to debate which is better just to find the AP equivelant to Arn pen.
If 100 Armor pen = .6 ap then I would def go dual for the refresh rate. That would mean Exe = 504 or so AP, and Goose = 120 AP.
Can someone verify that?
It also depends on your base weapon dps, but a simulation I did put the relationship between Armor Pen and AP for a sword rogue at about that number (AP = Armor pen * .6) using 100dps weapons, 2000+ ap, 4k armor target.
120 agility gives 120 AP, you're correct. However, it also gives 3% crit, which, in terms of increasing your damage, is roughly equivalent to another 120 AP... and then you add kings, which gives 10% to both of those. So if we're saying Executioner is "equivalent" to 252 AP, then Mongoose is "equivalent" to about 264 AP, from a damage perspective. And again, all these numbers are easily found in the Roguecraft 101 thread, or your local spreadsheet.
I beg to differ 3% chance to crit is = to 120 AP. 3% chance to crit is just a chance to crit. If that were the case then every rogue would forget about AP and just roll more crit chance.
You could have mongoose for a whole buff duration and not crit once, It's a chance to crit not guaranteed with Executioner is it 100% guaranteed that it will increase your damage. Even if the damage is 1.
And I stated you get 3% chance to crit.
But my question isn't about mongoose or trying to find out which is better,
In these forums, there are two highly detailed spreadsheets to compare gear and builds and help you maximize your DPS. If you read these forums a bit, I'm sure you can find them, as both threads spend a lot of time on the first page of this forum, and never drop past the second.
Using these spreadsheets, one can get precise stat weightings - that is, figure out how much damage you gain from each stat or combination of stats, and allow you to say things like "you gain roughly the same amount of damage from 1 point of crit rating and 1.75 points of Attack Power". Then, someone went through those sheets and came up with some typical comparison values that will be roughly right for most rogues. Not all rogues, of course, as everyone is a bit different; but they're in the right ballpark for most of us. These are listed in the first post of the Roguecraft 101 thread I mentioned previously. And the weighting listed there is that 1 point of Armor Penetration is worth about .29 AP, which is where the .3 number I asserted comes from. It also asserts a weighting of 1.75 for crit rating and 2.00 (or 2.21 with Kings) for Agility, which is where my other estimates came from.
120 agi from mongoose gives a rogue 120 ap also. 1 agi = 1 ap and some crit.
Mongoose would give a rogue slight increase 120 attack power 120 agi(3% chance to crit).
Xertigo, i'm confused on your post.
AP = Armor pen .6 so does that mean my post is correct. Because 100 dps 2000 ap would be irrelevant for armor pen.
What I believe matters is the targets armor and how much Armor pen you have.
I'm not going to get into a long discussion on the validity of EP and the spreadsheet numbers - clearly many rogues have found a lot of success using them or the associated weightings. However, it is my firm belief that the value of Armor Penetration varies based upon your AP, the base dps of your weapons, the target's level and the target's armor and that would be my explanation as to why my relationship between AP and APen for a particular set of Ap, dps, and armor differs from the 'accepted' value.
As to why AP and weapon DPS matter, here is a *simplified* theorycraft example.
Rogue 1:
Character Sheet MH Damage - 400-500, 2.6 spd
Attacking an enemy with 40% physical damage mitigation from armor
Case 1: No armor penetration -> Observed damage (white): 240 - 300 -> 103.8 dps
Case 2: 5% reduction in mitigation through Armor Penetration -> Observed damage (white): 260 - 325 -> 112.5 dps
Case 3: +37 increase in dmg from AP (MH Dmg 437-537) -> Observed damage (white): 262 - 322 -> 112.3 DPS
Rogue 2:
Character Sheet MH Damage - 150-200, 2.6 spd
Attacking an enemy with 40% physical damage mitigation from armor
Case 1: No armor penetration -> Observed damage (white): 90 - 120 -> 40.3 dps
Case 2: 5% reduction in mitigation through Armor Penetration -> Observed damage (white): 98 - 130 -> 43.8 dps
Case 3: +37 increase in dmg from AP (MH Dmg 187-237) -> Observed damage (white): 112 - 142 -> 48.8 DPS
Essentially, the better your gear and the lower the armor of the target mob, the better armor penetration becomes. Secondarily, armor penetration and AP both increase how hard you hit with attacks that are mitigated by armor but AP also increases damage done by physical attacks that are not mitigated by armor while APen has a greater effect on physical attacks that are mitigated by armor, but are not based on character sheet damage (Eviscerate, etc.).
I originally was looking at this from a druid's perspective to see if armor pen was useful (because haste rating really is not useful) and I found that while armor pen can be useful, druids have so many talents (HotW, SotF, NW) that bias the itemization benefit towards raw strength and agility; you need really good gear for it to make an impact. What I found for rogues was that the significant impact of base weapon damage on the value of armor penetration makes it valuable at an earlier gear level. However, conversations with other rogues inside my guild pointed out that the real difficulty in going the armor penetration route was also maintaining an appropriate amount of hit as many of the items that have armor pen, do not also have hit.
Well, obviously these stat weightings change based on your gear. This is specifically why we have spreadsheets: so you can find the stats weightings that apply specifically to your gear. You enter in your gear, buffs, boff debuffs, etc. and it generates dynamic stat weightings specific to your case. And what we find by so doing is that in most cases, the stat weightings only vary by 10% or so from rogue to rogue. Sometimes it's a bit more, but, for instance, when we say ArPen is worth "about .3 AP", it might be .27 for some rogues and .33 for others, but it's not going to be .1 or .5 for anyone. In rough terms, it's "about .3 AP". That's all I'm really claiming. If you want more detailed numbers about your situation, that's exactly why we have spreadsheets to help you figure it out. But if you just want a quick estimate whether an item is really good or total crap, using .3 will do just fine.
This new fangled armor penetration nonsense has intrigued me. I embarked on my own investigation of it (which I have written up in latex and would like to post but I need 10 posts before I can). Essentially, through very basic algebraic manipultion of the armor mitigation function and a generic physical dps function, I came up with simple formula for stat equivalencies. Now, such results have very likely already been discussed - but I figured it'd be worth a shot to throw out there.
The following are formula for the equivalent change in some stat (hit, crit, attack power) to be dps neutral to some given change in armor penetration.
First, variable definitions: is current crit chance. is the equivalent change in crit chance. is the multiplicative crit modifier. is current hit chance. is the equivalent change in hit chance. is current armor penetration. is change in armor penetration. is the mob's armor. is the total raid armor debuffs. is attack power. is an invertible linear (non-affine) function mapping attack power to dps. is base dps.
Formula:
I would like to post the derivation of these formula, but, as I said, I can't make a new thread. They really are pretty basic formula. However, the implication of them is what's important. One can directly find a dps neutral equivalency for armor penetration in terms of crit or hit given one's current stats. Armor penetration can be thought of as equivalent dps-wise to crit or hit - it's really not a very complicated stat. (Note: attack power is more sketchy due to having to find a well defined function .) By becoming familiar with these formula it actually becomes very easy to evaluate gear with armor penetration.
Your formulas are essentially correct for a single ability; the complexity in stat equivalence is in considering several abilities with difference crit chances and hit rates (or different dodge and parry rates). The one-roll/two-roll distinction between auto-attacks and yellow damage, for example, makes the symbolic calculation of equivalence much more difficult.
Also, I find it convenient to lump alpha, r, and epsilon together and to abstract 10557.5 out as a constant, but that's a matter of taste.
Edit: as for attack power, though, I would just use something of the form...
Where m is the base weapon damage, rho an attack power coefficient (which is typically swing time / 14, but different for "normalized" attacks, and k the added damage on top of that (e.g. Sinister Strike's extra damage). Is there some difficulty here I'm not aware of?
Yea... I purposefully made it overly generalized. As you are saying, each class should then use these formula as a point of departure to make more specific evaluations.
The complication with attack power is as you said, differences between attacks, etc, make it hard to evaluate. This is why I said, it is hard to find a well defined function . In other words, describes the special cases of individual classes.
The point I was trying to make was that armor penetration is directly comparable to crit or hit (and by extension attack power since most people know how to evaluate the ap/hit or ap/crit tradeoff). However, as you point out, when there are differing crit rates/hit rates between white and yellow damage and between specials, it falls apart. This is not generally the case hunters as it is for rogues (particularly for survival), which is why I looked past the implications of differing crit and hit rates. I am not familiar with the mechanics of rogues or any other class aside from hunters. I will try to make a more precise evaluation for hunters.
However, I do think that these general formulas have value in understanding the general implications of armor penetration, which was the goal of the exercise.
Yea... I purposefully made it overly generalized. As you are saying, each class should then use these formula as a point of departure to make more specific evaluations.
The complication with attack power is as you said, differences between attacks, etc, make it hard to evaluate. This is why I said, it is hard to find a well defined function . In other words, describes the special cases of individual classes.
The point I was trying to make was that armor penetration is directly comparable to crit or hit (and by extension attack power since most people know how to evaluate the ap/hit or ap/crit tradeoff). However, as you point out, when there are differing crit rates/hit rates between white and yellow damage and between specials, it falls apart. This is not generally the case hunters as it is for rogues (particularly for survival), which is why I looked past the implications of differing crit and hit rates. I am not familiar with the mechanics of rogues or any other class aside from hunters. I will try to make a more precise evaluation for hunters.
However, I do think that these general formulas have value in understanding the general implications of armor penetration, which was the goal of the exercise.
Oh, assuredly, and when you have the luxury of having most of the variables factor out (as is the case when all the attacks in your rotation have the same crit and hit chance, for example), it's very convenient. What it reinforces in my mind, though, is that these equivalences really should not be so difficult to compute symbolically in a well-designed system, but that's another matter, I suppose.
As I said, though, your formulas are essentially correct; it's just important to remember the complexities involved and to understand the situations (or in this case, whole classes) for which the symbolic solutions become intractable.
I say this, of course, as a mage, for which spell rotation theorycraft is by nature fairly simple compared to that of, say, warlocks or shadow priests.
I've only done a test on Felmyst (waiting for NDA on this boss to be lifted before posting). I'll check Brutallus and possibly both Dragon and Demon next reset.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Using data previously collected in this thread & listing armor ignoring abilities, I've relisted all known boss's & trash types with the amount of armor left on every target. We could really use more trash samples for MH/BT, as killing a group of casters that have 3600 armor to start with would go faster for players in haste gear instead of armor ignore.
Raid's Armor Ignore Abilites
(exeuctioner can't stack with 2 weapons, but assuming it's up at all times)
FF -610
CoR -800
Sunder -2600
Executioner -840 total armor ignore on a target without gear: 4850
Assuming a trash mob has all of the abilites above (with the listed exectioner proc'ed on you), these are the new armor abilites for everything... so...
Boss Armor Left assuming 5/5 Sunders + CoR + FF + Exectioner is in use(4850)
KARAZHAN
Attumen the Huntsman: 2650
Midnight: 3350
Maiden of Virtue: 1850
Julianne: 1250
Romulo: 2750
Strawman: 2450 Roar: 0
The Curator: 1250 Shade of Aran: 0 Kil'rek: 0
Terestian Illhoof: 1850
Nightbane: 2750 Netherspite: 650
Prince Malchezaar: 2750
Serpentshrine Cavern
Hydross the Unstable: 2850
The Lurker Below: 2850
Leotheras the Blind: 2850
Fathom-Lord Karathress 1350
Morogrim Tidewalker: 2850
Lady Vashj: 1350
Black Temple
High Warlord Naj'entus: 2850
Supremus: 2850
Shade of Akama: 2850
Teron Gorefiend: 1350
Gurtogg Bloodboil: 2850
Reliquary of Souls: - Essence of Suffering: 0
- Essence of Desire: 2850
- Essence of Anger: 2850
Mother Shahraz: 1350
Illidari Council:
- Gathios the Shatterer: 1350
Illidan Stormrage: 2850
Outdoor
Doomwalker: 2750
BLACK TEMPLE TRASH(two types, so it's usually one or the other):
level 70= 625 or 1950
level 71= 850 or 2250
level 72= 1100 or 2550
I still have a few upgrades left, but I'm at 2100 ArPen on my current gear. Is there a mod that can show the target's armor or a mod that let's a warrior TC to see DR %'s that works with 2.4?
New in 2.4: On your character screen you can choose the "melee" and if you hover over the "hit rating" it'll add up all your armor ignore gear & show you a total.
12/27/07, 5:39 PM
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