Spuddelkopf

Unfortunately it isn't. Despite fire mages having 210% dmg crits and getting mana back, the high number of crit rating points needed to achieve 1% crit (22.1) brings the value of crit down quite a lot. Now if crit had a rating-% conversion like haste or hit it would be certainly much better.

 

Alvira

Crit is good to have, but the problem is that it takes up a lot more itemization points compared to stats like +dmg. So, the opportunity if you stack a ton of crit may be at the expense of a lot of +dmg or other stats. So, if it comes with items that already have tons of the other stats including +dmg, then well and good. But don't stack it at the expense of stats like +dmg.

As you get better and better gear, the bigger itemization points budget will allow more crit to come naturally on those items. T6 mages generally have relatively high crit ratings of at least 280 or more compared to T5 or T4 geared mages, and they have that high a crit rating even while they are hit capped, plus have high +dmg, and are well rounded in other stats as well.

So, its a question of item budget in the end. Crit takes up a lot of item budget, it doesn't come free.

 

Pintofbrew

This is utter bullshit and your paladin should stick to what he does best, which clearly is not deciding how dps casters work.

The fact remains that warriors only generate 40% of their damage from white attacks, and rogues barely 60%. Shamans even less due to WF internal CD giving their haste diminishing returns. I am well aware that extra attacks generate extra rage/energy due to talent mechanics but there is no way on this planet you can convince me that either of those two classes gain anywhere near to 100% dps increase from BL. That is simply absurd.

Casters on the other hand, you may have noticed, with the exceptions of SP and Affli locks generate 100% of their output from casting. It does not take a genius to deduce that 30% faster casting from a class that generates ALL OF IT'S DPS from casting means a flat 30% increase. In the particular case of mages at under 20% this is amplified even more. I won't bother going into the specifics of Flamecap-Hex-Comb then Skull-Destropot-IV during MF range because obviously the rogues will then go "but zomggg, AR-Trink-Hastepot-whatever". This is largely irrelevant, every class should get one bloodlust to combine with all their CDs at least, but once they're over the next BL will only affect effects which are left. Which are basically Molten Fury and fuck all else. Execute may be considered also relevant, however I have never been impressed by Exe dps output. Everyone seems to cream over it but I am unconvinced from logs I've seen. Not to mention a melee grp will have one warrior, whereas a caster grp will have 3 mages.

Arguing bullshit about mana is utterly pointless. A mage who is OOM is clearly doing something wrong, and a lock who is OOM just needs to Lifetap. And Tapping while BL has zero negative effect on the DPS because it get's hasted too. If your lock is spending any time tapping he's not getting the full regen he'd need and is not 100% bolting. One BL will not impact his SB/Tap ratio in any way, if he even bothers to tap at all.

So tell your friend to get his facts straight and not ask for irrational chain-buffing on his JoW-bot self.

 

maxi

Got a question to the Rawr users out there.

I have a problem specifying setups which include heroic green +hit gems and reckless pyrestones. Apparently rawr doesn't know such gems exist. I might be doing something wrong :/

Searching the forum for "rawr gem reckless" did not bring any conclusive results, so if any of you could help me out it would be super.

EDIT: also got a question with regard to chain-lusting casters. If getting chain-lusted will force mage to use a mana gem or mana pot, or switch to mage armor, how much will it detract from lust usefulness? My gut tells me the downside is not very significant, but anyone here knows for sure?

 

gcbirzan

I think you can fix that by doing "Load possible upgrades from armoury".

[Mage] TC after 2.3

 

maxi

Ok thanks i will try that
I am well aware of this thread thank you.
The conclusion i can draw from it is that as long as getting chain-lusted does not reduce you to having to wand / scorch you are fine.
Right now i am looking for confirmation on whether that conclusion is correct.

 

Pintofbrew

If you are reduced to either wanding or scorching you are in a dramatically bad group (ie no SP) or are aware but not practicing the mana vs damage ballance as demonstrated and as you suggested you were aware of. There is a multitude of mechanics available to the mage to generate mana over the length of a fight and they can be tailored to suit even the most strung mana-regen requirements.

If your raid is not catering enough mana to you (via mana spring/tide, JoW, BoW, SP) and you are not managing to stay afloat in mana terms on your own via any combination of mana-regen devices put forward by Roywyn's research then either you're doing something dramatically wrong or you're running a simulation of a totally unrealistic fight.

 

gcbirzan

Without doing any math on it, I can tell you I usually finish fights with a SP very high on mana, more than enough to live through another BL, and that's without potting, on farm content.

 

Larisa

Here's a humble request for advice from a newbie arcane/frost mage.

The thing is that I recently respecced from deep fire, 2/48/11, to my current spec, 40/0/21.

I know that isn't the highest dps spec for my level in the game (I have T4 equipment and just started out raiding T5 content). The sweet information thread tells me deep fire that I used to be is better.

But I had grew sick and tired of having constant aggro problems and never being able to nuke, so I thought I should try something else. And so far it seems more managable this way.

My question is: since I don't yet have 2 T5 pieces, spamming AB doesn't seem the way to go for me. Trying some AB spamming at Dr Boom has also showed me that I would run out of mana in no time at all.

But how should a decent spell rotation look if I should stick to this spec? Altering frostbolts and AB?
Any suggestions? Most threads here say spell rotations for arcane are outdated now, but well... I need to have an idea of what spells I should use. Arcane Missiles at least seems to be out of the question.

Or am I just stupid trying out Arcane spec without having the two T5 pieces? Should I have solved my aggro problems some other way than by going arcane?

 

Shazz

Okay, I have recently returned after about a year sabbatical and have found the mage game to be completely different. For example, last time I played the only acceptable PvE spec was 10/48/3. This has of course, changed, and I have accommodated to the change by respeccing 2/48/11. I joined a fledgling BT/MH guild, and we are currently 6/9 BT and 5/5 Hyjal. I am one of two reliable mages in the guild, the other one being much better geared than myself.

My question is, although he has much better gear than me, how do I catch up with him on the damage meters? He usually tops meters for casters, and is often in the top 3 overall. He is also 40/0/21, with 2/5 T5. We're usually in the same group which consists of a SPriest, Resto Shaman, a Warlock, and us two mages. It may also be worth mentioning our reliable shadow priest is a draenei.

Below is my armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Now, I know I have 8 more hit than I need. I currently am planning to purchase two new gems for belt of blasting. However, I wanted to wait on the advice from the more seasoned mages on this board. From what I have read, two reckless pyrestones would be the best, but when I plug it into rawr it suggests two runed crimson spinels. It also suggests a runed crimson spinel for my gloves. Is spell haste only good when I have a large quantity of it?

I am also wondering about my spec. I have the 2/5 T5 required for the 40/0/21. I am also willing to sacrifice the sunfire enchant on my now outdated Magus Blade to go 40/0/21. Rawr says this spec is inferior; however, the other mage is continually beating me on meters, so I'm wondering if I'm configuring rawr correctly.

To avoid a wall of text, I'm going to stop here. Please let me know what changes need to be made in my spec/gear/gems.

Thank you.

 

arnorian

Hey there,

I have been reading up on a lot of mage theory craft on the other thead and have read much of this thread. I'm also an avid Rawr user. But it seems that I'm still not a 100% sure on a couple of things.

So our guild is well into SSC and TK with ZA on farm and I was wondering if I have optimized my gear. When I use Rawr and other related programs, they tell me that I am fine up through BT and Hyjal in terms of upgrades. But when it comes to the WWS reports, I am still falling in 2nd to our lock class lead (I am the mage lead). My question is this: with my spec being 2/48/11, should i still be sporting the spellfire set? I've done the math on the +Damage it gives unbuffed (approx 35-36) and fully raid buffed (approx. 41-42), but I can't help wondering if I should be replacing these items with other items with more innate spell hit on them, thus being able to replace the few hit gems I still have into spell damage gems.

Here is my armory in case anyone is curious [url="http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stonemaul&n=Arnorian"]

On an average night, I can average 1220dps for the run, I'm just wondering if I could squeeze out some more with replacing my spellfire set with items such as Belt of Blasting or others. Is the set bonus THAT important?

Also on a unrelated note, the more I read in the mage theory craft forums, the more I wonder how important it is to get a helm with a meta socket in it. Meta gems are undoubtedly great, but is it absolutely necessary to have one? I'm rolling with my Hood of Hexing at the moment, and I wonder if I need to get the T5 helm just for the meta or will I be fine just rolling into BT/Hyjal with my current helm.

Sorry If this seems like some noob asking for advice, but I cannot get solid feedback from anyone on my server, so I figured I'd ask you guys for some feedback. Thanks!

 

Sinless

Dear list,

First the armory link if anyone's interested: The World of Warcraft Armory

I have been a long time arcane mage. I know every mechanic behind successfully playing an arcane spec. However, after obtaining 5 pieces of Tier 6 I have decided to give fire / IV a try. We have very recently killed Illidan and still weeks off from attempting Sunwell.

My question is not so much as "how do you play fire / IV". Instead, I want to hear your experiences.

My first night as this new spec in Hyjal last night, here are my observations: Please let me know whether or not I am mistaken.

1) Evocation: Even with a semi-high dps shadow priest in my group and an elemental shaman, I am still running into mana issues since I don't use gems/mana pots to save cooldowns for flamecap/destruction potions. What do you do? Do you use flamecap/destro pots on every combustion pop or do you only use them below 20% and pop gems and mana potions before that?

2) Invisibility: Threat didn't seem to be as much of an issue as I was afraid of. Never had to use invisibility on any fight except Rage. What are your experiences on this? How crucial is invisibility for a deep fire/IV mage?

3) When to pop first combustion? I ask this so I can see if I can pop 2 combustions in a typical 4 minute Hyjal fight.

These are the most important questions I'm looking answers for. I'd appreciate advice from folks who regularly break 2k dps on BT/Sunwell level fights.

Thanks !

 

gcbirzan

1) [Mage] TC after 2.3

2) Depends on the figth. In BT, I always use invisibility on Gurtogg and RoS in phase 3 (it ticks two times and buys you at least another spellcast.) I usually have to do it on Teron too, but that may just be me and my guild's tank's TPS.
In Hyjal, hm. Don't really remember, but I think I don't have to use it even for Rage.

Regardless of that, you just have to take it for granted. If you have to use invisibility, you have to. :-)

3) I'd say pop all your cooldowns at around the one minute mark, then again when they're off CD to stack them with molten fury and BL.

 

grayrest

I did this for a while. The problem is that most theorycrafting is not done with this gear level in mind because it is a sub-par spec at the level. I finally got 2t5 and a serpent coil braid this past weekend and went from 50 dps under the fire mage (who doesn't have CoE mind you) to ~200 dps over. If you're willing to pot heavily for inferior dps, it can be done if you have the following:

* A Warlock tossing up CoS, this is pretty common
* A decent shadow priest
* JoW on target--not essential but very beneficial
* Divine Spirit--same as JoW, I have JoW but not this

Since I can't see your gear, I'll assume you have spellfire and therefore recommend 47/0/11+3 over the standard 40/0/21. The frost talents are discretionary, as are the last 3 points. I like the shown mix because a Frostbolt->AM pretty much ensures a mob doesn't reach you and it gives you a slightly better chance in world pvp while you're doing your dailies. The reason for this recommendation is that you have 175 more +dam going to AM than going to frostbolt. AM is a worse spell than FrB in terms of efficiency and scaling, but that much damage when you only have ~1k makes up the difference (it's not a ton, but it's noticeable). A side bonus is that 50/0/11 is a better spec for the content you're doing. Hydross is frostbolt immune half the time, Vashj's adds are frost immune, and Slow is very useful for caribdis for the FLK fight and for the flamecasters in ZA (both can be handled by CoT as well, so it's a convenience and not something crucial).

For gear, you should have a helm with a metagem in it ([Chaotic Skyfire Diamond]) and socket your gear with +int gems. This ups your regen, which makes the spec much more forgiving, but it's also the best dps option if you can hit ~750 int while raid buffed (due to the spellfire bonus and the boosted regen). When given a choice, prefer gear with spirit on it but don't keep an inferior piece of gear just because it has spirit (e.g. choosing between [Corrupted Soulcloth Pantaloons] and [Legwraps of Sweltering Flame], you pick the spirit). With consumables and kings, you should be able to hit 315 mp5, which is needed to power the AB spam. Your consumables are Food (both the damage and the spirit help), [Adept's Elixir] and [Elixir of Draenic Wisdom] and you should do a tribute run with a buddy and buy 30g worth of [Kreeg's Stout Beatdown]. Expect to burn through 2-3 super mana pots per boss attempt. I bring 25 to a 3 hour raid.

As for during the raid, your strategy is to spam AB as much as possible. With the regen and mana pool the proper gearing provides, you should be able to spam AB for just over a minute solo. Raid buffs and a spriest make up most of the rest of it. You open the fight with AB spam, hit your pot as soon as you're down 2500 mana and fire off your AP+trinket+IV macro, popping the gem once AP runs out. From there, if I have a spriest, I spam down till 30% and then AB/AM rotate. If I don't have a spriest, I'll spam down to 45% and then rotate (yeah, it sucks). When AP is about to come up, spam down to 25% and evo, restack AB and fire off the second combo. From there you have to guessitmate how long the fight has left and then weave in AMs as needed. If you underestimate, the AB/AM cycle lets you always switch to AM on clearcast, which helps extend your mana pool at the cost of dps.

The main difference between the above and 40/0/21 is that you'll be weaving in frostbolts instead of AMs, so you have finer control over the AB to frostbolt ratio. Also, when you're filling with frostbolt, it's best to weave in frostbolts while you're stacking AB. For AM fill, I find the stacking takes too long if I weave so I just eat the 200 ms latency delay.

Again, I do not recommend arcane without 2t5. I'm dedicated to the spec (I don't enjoy fire/frost, I went pally when 2.3 hit and came back to being an arc mage with 2.4) so I'm fine with being the hardest working dps with only 4th or 5th on the charts to show for it. For reference, my armory. I was wearing spellfire, sweltering flame, and the pendant of the violet eye (icon would be better but...) and specced 50/0/11 as shown before I got the second piece of t5.

 

Tyfon

@shazz: If the other mage is in MH/BT gear, there's no way you're going to beat him with the gear you have now, regardless of spec. But it sounds like you'll be gearing up quickly. As for gems, damage tends to be favored by rawr up until around 1200. Personally I gem +dmg, unless the socket bonus is worthwhile and requires yellow.

@arnorian: spellfire is quite good, and many mages wear it into MH/BT. Its biggest weakness is the lack of stas, which only really becomes a problem in, again, MH/BT. Its not worth breaking it for BoB alone. Some say that BoB + badge gloves are worth it, which is certainly debatable. You could try running the rawr optimizer, which should tell you a good overall picture of what to do (as opposed to comparing one piece of gear at a time)

 

Risingstar

@Shazz: Looking at your armory I was almost in the same boat you are about a month ago. I had to gear up really quick. You might consider a few upgrades at boots (the new badge one is extremely nice) and don't be so quick to replace your hit yet.
Since you're getting 32 hit from your trinket alone. Now it's a very trinket when you're low on hit, but what if you run into say Hex or even the new alchemist stone? Then you suddenly need to find around 20 more hit to be capped again or give up 40 potential spell dmg increase over 15 (by keeping your old trinket and replacing the icon).
Now if this other mage is remotely t6 geared (1100-1300 spell dmg, hit caped, 30% crit, and 4-5% haste) he can almost play suboptimal before you have a chance to catch up. Your best bet is do your best, stack CDs, flamecaps, destro potions on fights that's not mana intensive and pull your own weight.

 

arnorian

Thanks for the help!

I ran a bunch of different builds on Rawr and found that it still isn't advisable to break the spellfire set with the BoB and the badge gloves. I will just have to wait till we run BT and MH more frequently to obtain upgrades. Thanks again for the help.

 

Klessa

I too have recently returned to WoW after a good year plus sabbatical. I've respec'd from frost and my shadoweave set to 2/48/11 and am currently trying to gear up decently so that I can apply to a Tier 4 or Tier 5 guild. I've thought about ditching shadoweave tailoring and switching to spellcloth. But the time and effort required to make all that spellcloth and farm all the primals is daunting, especially when I've already done it once for shadoweave. If possible I'd rather skip that approach and concentrate on other avenues.

I've spent the last 4 days reading the forums here trying to grasp all the changes that have gone in over the last year. However, sometimes it is a bit confusing when you're reading a post and it contradicts information you read elsewhere, and then you realize the post date was 10/10/7. The Mage TC thread alone is 101 pages long and quite intimidating.

I've read the Sweet information thread, the TC, the big blue dress, and Vontre's. Though none of them entirely. Honestly it is just too much to take in in any sort of understanding when you are just diving into it all. Seeing this thread is labeled "Help me" and was started with the spirit of all the information being too extensive to comb through thoroughly I figure it wouldn't hurt to ask. So when answering please take into consideration that simply linking a 101 page thread really isn't that helpful in the end.

First, my armory. The World of Warcraft Armory

A hint of direction would be greatly appreciated. What gear should I concentrate on getting right now that I have access to? Kara, Mag, Gruul runs are easily doable via PUGs which are run nightly on my server. I have a top server tank who is willing to run Heroics for me and I believe I may be able to get some normal ZA runs in, though timed events wouldn't be feasible due to my DPS not being sufficient to participate.

I've passed on the T4 helm out of Kara time and time again because I've been told it doesn't compare to the spellstrike set and I can see where that's true. But after reading here I've considered getting it for the meta gem socket and putting a [Mystical Skyfire Diamond] in it.

From what I've gathered, I should concentrate on spell hit to 164 (need 5 more points), then spell haste, then spell damage. With haste being greater than spell damage I am curious if I should put some effort into getting the PVP spell haste items. [Guardian's Band of Subjugation] and [Guardian's Pendant of Subjugation] and I believe there is a 3rd item, perhaps a belt. There are also several badge haste items available. I am trying to learn how to use rawr now, but what's the short answer on when to choose haste over damage. For example, I have [Quagmirran's Eye] but I dont' equip it because it really doesn't seem to go off very much. Am I making a mistake? I was told by a friend on M'uru in Sunwell not to worry about spellhaste at my level of the game and concentrate on damage until I could feasibly get my haste % over 200. From what I've read here that seems incorrect and would like that confirmed by someone more knowledgeable.

Again, I appreciate any advice any of you are willing to give. Going to go back to trying to sludge through the sheer pages of information and grasp a higher level of personal understanding of it all.

EDIT: I plan to put subtlety on my cloak once I finish farming the mats for it and upgrade the spellthread on the pants once I obtain a primal nether. I put spirit on the boots after reading here how it or boar's speed are the really only dps enchant upgrades for the slot and couldn't justify the mats for boar's speed on those boots. Any other enchant/gem advice is welcome.

 

Finkum

[Guardian's Pendant of Subjugation] is one of the best necks until Sunwell, narrowly beating [Loop of Cursed Bones] when socketed correctly. [Guardian's Band of Subjugation] on the other hand is terrible, as in worse than Kara equivalents. [Guardian's Band of Dominance] is better, but may be problematic to get if you are not an arena junkie (1650 rating requirement). [Belt of Blasting] is superior to the new [Guardian's Silk Belt], although the materials can be pricy depending on your AH.

I imagine your friend is advising against gearing for haste because 1) original T4 and T5-level itemisation didn't feature it, so it has become associated with high-end raiding only, 2) haste is not a very powerful stat for arcane specs, and T5 clearly is designed with arcane mages in mind and 3) it depletes your mana faster than if you spent equivalent item points on extra +dmg or +crit. However, for frost/fire specs, spell haste is always better in terms of pure DPS than crit and is competitive with spell damage for any realistic gear level, assuming you can support the mana drain (i.e. do you have a shadow priest).

There is no simple answer as to when haste is better than plus damage, as this depends on your base +dmg/haste level, your group composition, raid buffs, and spec. In terms of gear upgrades, however, the question is usually fairly clearcut. Rawr will be able to help you with the specifics here.

I'd advise you to buy [Carved Witch Doctor's Stick] as it is cheap, and get the aforementioned [Belt of Blasting] crafted to free up some spellhit. The new badge gloves or robes would be good choices to upgrade too, although the badge cost is high. If you have money to burn assembling a Crusades deck to replace your [The Lightning Capacitor] is not a bad idea either.

Edit: Also, unless you primarily use Mage Armor, Vitality to boots (4mp5/hp5) is better regen than 5 spirit. Even if you do use Mage Armor I suspect Vitality will be better given your low spirit value, but without running the calculations I'm not 100% sure.

 

grayrest