Relative

Well, I appeared on the threat meter when we engaged (due to me casting FFF followed by mangle) and I left it when Gruul died (because it turned off). Based on this, I'd say that the combat time was the same for everyone in the raid. What confuses me is that my TPS seemed to take a HUGE increase but everyone elses stayed where it normally does.

 

Papajan

Maybe the Mangle (Bear) GCD change accidentally affected Mangle damage? I remember having some unusually high Mangle crits in Kara the other day, could potentially help explain both things.

 

Bula

I think any TPS reported by omen for the last few days can be safely regarded as faulty. At one point in ZA last night I was reported at having over 4.5 million threat on the bear boss. I'm pretty sure I'm good at threat gen but not that good.

 

• Astrylian

The 4.5 billion/million/trillion/whatever thing is when you taunt when the boss isn't targeting anyone. I'd be willing to just assume that Omen was reporting faulty data, but it's giving expected TPS values for other classes, and those classes are riding my (sky high) threat, and not pulling aggro, and Gwin was able to pull aggro exactly when it said he would... So it's seeming like the high values are accurate.

 

kalbear

While the TPS reported may be faulty, the behavior is not. I did pull off Gruul from the warrior last night doing mangle/lacerate only (and not even that all the way; I was pretty rage-starved) and I did pull off from the warrior on Mags doing the same thing. The lacerate hits with AP do appear to be decent but not that great; I don't know where the rest of the threat is coming from. But it looks substantial. Does the AP scaling affect the lacerate bleed as well?

In other news, the threat generated on undead/robots is insane compared to before. So nice.

 

Relative

The AP scaling does effect the bleed as well, I cant recall the coefficient at the moment. Maybe it was posted earlier in the thread? As I mentioned previous, quick napkin math from Astrylian when I spoke to him shows a threat increase of ~12%, no where near the 50-80% which some of us are seeing.

Also, I dont think I'd call the reports faulty, I pulled aggro off my warrior tank in gruul exactly when I should have (I had passed his 100%, he got groundslammed away, Gruul stopped targetting him to shatter, and then went to the person HIGHEST on aggro (me)

While main tanking he was doing around 1100 TPS which is about normal for him. Everyone else's numbers seemed correct, and the game reacted to my TPS just like I would have assumed it would.

 

Larisroth

Kind of off topic now but:

I got it shorter than that.

/script local D="Dire Bear Form"; D=GetSpellCooldown(D)>0 or CancelPlayerBuff(D)

short circuiting boolean operators ftw baby!

More on topic.

Perhaps they realised that the AP scaling they had didn't change the threat. The obviously fix for be for the initial damage to do 4 - 5 times the threat. (and perhaps all the threat of the move (has anyone checked if the dot will pull agro?). That way the AP scaling would come out to about that of devastate although there's still the shield block issue.

The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

 

Bula

In our version of omen at the time I was showed with 4.5 million threat and the second highest person had a few thousand. This is what I meant by faulty.

 

• Astrylian

Yeah, it gives you 4.5mil when you taunt off nobody. It's a bug. Other than that, as far as I've seen, it's given correct data.

 

kalbear

And to be clear - both on Gruul and Mags I pulled threat exactly when Omen said I would. What was surprising was how much threat I was generating.

I'm really, really looking forward to tackling VR now. Between the lacerate buff, whatever threat buff we've been given and the mechanicals being subject to bleeds, I'm curious how much threat we can do.

 

Larisroth

umm does that actually work? There was a mistake in my code, it should've been: D=GetSpellCooldown(D) ...

The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

 

seminarca

I have to question the following:

I was under the impression that pre 2.4 Lacerate hits and crits both did (Dmg * 0.2 + 285) threat. This is what Tangedyn and Athinira's (I think it was them) testing concluded, and a number of people corroborated the results (right after 2.1 was released). The difference in threat between crit and hit Lacerates was minimal at best, since the initial damage of the skill is so low.

Temis, can you tell us where you're getting this from? Specifically, "The initial threat on lacerate does scale with damage".

Having said that, there is something funny happening with our threat. Initially I did attribute it to a patch day buggy Omen but ingame results are consistent with Omen so I'm not sure.

Finally, whether or not the Lacerate buff is the main source of the Bear TPS increase, it has most definitely upped Bear DPS by a lot. Mangled 5 stacks were ticking for ~410 for me. I've always maintained that Lacerate is a fairly significant contribution to RDPS, the buff makes it even better.

 

• Astrylian

Heh, maybe not? I was just basing that on your code. I'm not online to test it.

And yeah, as far as I've always known, Lacerate has done 285 + 0.2*dmg, which made crits only do a tiny bit more. BTW- I've gone over the code from Threat-1.0 and Threat-2.0, and while the code is different (looks rewritten from scratch), the math that's done looks to be identical, it's still 285+0.2dmg for lacerate, 1.3*dmg for mangle, 322+dmg for maul, same (don't recall the #) for FFF, threat multiplier is still 1.3+0.05*talents (so 1.45)...

 

Bula

Ok, except the mob I taunted had a target at the time otherwise why would I have taunted =)

Anyway, this is an omen error and not something I would spend time worrying about.

 

TimWischmeier

As there are multiple reports stating that the new high tps being reported by omen, which seems to be consistend with ingame observations, I would conclude that they did not changed any threat multiplier.

This would lead to the conclusion that there has to be a damage boost on some or all of our attacks in bear form. So if anyone could supply some WWS comparisons of bear tank dps, there should be noticeable difference.

 

Relative

A damage meter (not WWS) was posted at the end of the Heroic MTer. that I ran after the gruul run. On the run, I was tanking, and seeing the same 1400+ threat numbers on pretty much everything I tanked.

A damage meter was posted at the end of the run and showed approx. the following:

BT Gear Rogue: ~900 DPS
BT Gear Spriest: ~850 DPS
Kara Gear Rogue: ~450 DPS
Me (tanking): ~350 DPS
Tree Druid: ~1 DPS

I'm wearing a mix of Season 3, Badge and T4 gear. On past WWS parses of various instances, I've done 300-350 DPS. While this wasnt WWS and could be off, how hard I was hitting felt pretty normal. The only one of my abilities which was hitting harder was Lacerate, and as stated before, napkin math done earlier seems to think that the dmg increase should only result in a ~12% threat increase.

(Logged out in the gear I tanked it with)

 

Temis

It does scale; based on Astrylian's numbers, poorly but still noticeably. I'm in BT right now, let me do a little quick research with the numbers the new Omen is showing me.

<Several minutes of peering at Omen occurred here.>

Well, I've definitely found what it is that is giving me such obscene threat totals. I saw these results with the Omen2 labeled on the in-game GUI as 66516, but labeled on wowace.com as 66529.

I applied one lacerate to a mob and turned off auto-attack, with no thorns or other damage auras active. I then watched the effect that the lacerate dot ticks had on Omen: Each tick of lacerate x1 ticked for 86 and added approximately 400-500 threat. (!) I stacked lacerate to x5 and again watched the effect on Omen; it appeared to have no effect on the amount of threat gained; each tick of 300+ damage still added approximately 400-500 threat. As a control, I stopped auto-attack entirely and verified that my threat was static, and re-performed the experiment - I am consistently reproducing these huge threat numbers for each tick of the dot as well as the initial application of lacerate.

My lua reading ability isn't great, but my tentative guess based on the code in Threat-2.0 is that the 285 + 0.2 * (damage) value may be being applied not just for the initial application of the ability, but also for every tick of the dot.

These numbers obviously conflict with common wisdom that the dot part of lacerate can basically be ignored when determining its value for threat, and are what prompted my assumption that lacerate must be scaling significantly more with damage done than previously determined formula implies.

The weird thing about this is that while these numbers do not match the formula, and my initial inclination is to assume that I'm seeing wrong numbers from Omen - as a couple other people have noted, the actual threat total displayed by Omen has seemed very accurate in terms of when people do and don't pull aggro, and this error (if it is an error) should be significant enough that druid tanks should be reporting that Omen is wildly overestimating their threat, which isn't really what I've been reading.

Can anybody else reproduce these results on current builds of Omen2?

 

seminarca

Looking at Omen is not really the best way to figure stuff out, it's a user created mod and will report to you what the author tells it to report: community derived formulas and values. In this particular case, if Omen is reporting 400-500 threat per tick, it's possible that the mod is bugged as you said. Another explanation could be change in game mechanics.

I think first order of business should be to determine whether our current assumptions of its innate threat and threat per damage still hold true (aka lots of naked Druid happyfuntimes).

edit: Here's the original archived thread if people need ideas on testing methodology:
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t10203-l...ally_measured/

 

Temis

I agree, but that's not really something I can controllably measure in a raid environment. I will drag a low level toon out to duskwood or something like that after the raid and see what I can find out, but in the meantime the Omen information is what I can provide.

Bloodboil should be ... rather interesting if threat meters are as inaccurate as they seem to be. Here goes nothin'.

 

• Astrylian

This afternoon, they released a new version of Omen that broke backwards compatability; overyone had to upgrade. Based on our BT raid, it's giving absolutely crazy, completely wrong threat values to almost everyone. My raid is just giving up on Omen for tonight, it's so wrong, for every class.

But before this afternoon, it did seem to be reporting accurate values, though they were very high.

EDIT: But yeah, with Bad Omen, Bloodboil was retarded.

 

Sarasper

WWS reports for tanking bloodboil a couple weeks ago compared to this week showed a lacerate damage increase but other attacks were consistent.

previous Bloodboil
This week's Bloodboil

We had to reloadui between attempts in order to reset omen so it would make any sense.

 

coredumperror

I've noticed that today's builds of omen have been getting progressively more accurate as the day has gone on. By the end of the day, I was using build 66565 (which wowace was reporting as 66568, strangely enough), and it was pretty spot on.

Speaking of Bloodboil with Bad Omen though, we had the exact opposite effect. Our first kill ever on him was this Wednesday, and omen was completely hosed the entire fight. We just had all 3 of our tanks go all out, and then when the current MT got 8 stacks, he'd stop all threat and wait for a disorient/knockback to rip agg off him onto another tank. This worked surprisingly well, and we downed Bloodboil for the first time ever!

----------------------
My DPS Set
My Boss-Tanking Set

 

• Falk

[Commendation of Kael'thas] = Nom nom nom.

(Although yes, you end up stunned. :/)

 

◊ Vaccine

Would if I could, but Heroic MT only drops [Vial of the Sunwell] for us