Feral Druid Megathread - Page 157

Duilliath · 05/22/08, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Merple

Just as a general question to tanks, what consumables are you guys using for non-first kills?

Currently, I'm using [Flask of Chromatic Wonder] because it lasts through death, and seems to do more for me than Fortification does, plus agi food. The added resistances are a bonus if we do a resist fight.

Obviously you stack elixirs + food + scrolls + anything you can find for first kills.

Depends how lazy I'm feeling. I have my own alchemist, so tend to cook up some Chromatic Wonders because it's less hassle than renewing pots all the time. And mistakes still happen - occasionally you die on MH trash or something else happens. Other than that, there's quite a few fights where the resistance can be useful, even Naj'entus.

Otherwise I'll be going Agility + Fortitude (I'm crit immune through 2 * S3 gear), so no need for Ironskins.

coredumperror · 05/22/08, 3:03 PM

I just realized something about the change to Mangle (bear) only affecting Maul instead of Shred. Unless Mangle (bear) and mangle (cat) can can both be on a mob at the same time, that'll utterly ruin cat DPS on bear-tanked targets by making shred not have the 30% bonus all the time, if at all. I guess with 2t6 and the -6 energy per mangle talent, mangle may outpace shred in terms of damage/energy, but I'm still worried about this change.

kalbear · 05/22/08, 3:42 PM

I seriously doubt that they'd make the ability overwrite the other, but it could happen. My suspicion is that you'll be able to have both debuffs on a target at the same time.

If you can't, it really hurts multiple ferals in a party. Either you gimp the dps of the cat or you really hurt the threat of a bear, and presumably you'd do the former first.

Ledneh · 05/22/08, 3:43 PM

I have a question about stamina vs. agility, and more specifically about how Rawr values them. I couldn't decide if this was more for the Rawr thread or the Feral thread, so I flipped a coin. Sorry if it came up wrong

I've been tinkering with Rawr, trying to find ideal gemming combinations for tanking. One thing I've noticed is that it vastly values stamina over agility; 3x 15 sta gems are ALWAYS more valuable than (say) 3x 10 agi gems, no matter the item. The thing is, selfbuffed I have 17.5k hp and 43% dodge (about 21k and 52% fully raidbuffed), which in my experience so far (recent-Illidan-killing guild) has always been enough to survive an unlucky dodge streak of two or three heavy crushes.

Even more oddly as a result, the highest rated neckpiece it has for me is the [Necklace of the Deep] with 15 sta gems!

I guess my question is, is Rawr overvaluing more stamina with my current gear, am I undervaluing it, or is it pretty much a wash of subjectivity?

My armory, for reference.

Promethius · 05/22/08, 3:48 PM

On the INT on feral gear issue, wouldn't a pretty elegant solution be to simply add a 10/20/30% (adjustable numbers for balance obviously) conversion of INT to attack power in predatory strikes? People would stop complaining about how predatory strikes has 0 scaling after maxing out in level, and considering survival of the fittest, heart of the wild (20% to INT, 10% to ap in cat) and kings, INT would come out to be about .45 attack power per INT, which is along the lines of that one hunter talent that converts INT to ap. Pure rogue gear's probably going to still be better for raw DPS, but at least this way, it shifts a portion of the population away from wanting rogue gear. Considering at the Sunwell level, enh shamans, hunters and DPS warriors (case in point: gloves of immortal dusk v. the higher item level borderland paingrips off KJ) are looking at leather for maximizing DPS in addition to feral druids and rogues, Blizzard's going to have to start adding some incentives for classes to not demand leather to such a degree.

Valerian · 05/22/08, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by coredumperror

I just realized something about the change to Mangle (bear) only affecting Maul instead of Shred. Unless Mangle (bear) and mangle (cat) can can both be on a mob at the same time, that'll utterly ruin cat DPS on bear-tanked targets by making shred not have the 30% bonus all the time, if at all. I guess with 2t6 and the -6 energy per mangle talent, mangle may outpace shred in terms of damage/energy, but I'm still worried about this change.

This is likely one of the things that will come up during testing. Remember this is alpha here. Tons of things are extremely "rough" during alpha development. There are glaring holes in a lot of talents/spells now, either in the broken way or in the way too good way or even just logistically complex or confusing.

Valerian · 05/22/08, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Promethius

On the INT on feral gear issue, wouldn't a pretty elegant solution be to simply add a 10/20/30% (adjustable numbers for balance obviously) conversion of INT to attack power in predatory strikes? People would stop complaining about how predatory strikes has 0 scaling after maxing out in level, and considering survival of the fittest, heart of the wild (20% to INT, 10% to ap in cat) and kings, INT would come out to be about .45 attack power per INT, which is along the lines of that one hunter talent that converts INT to ap. Pure rogue gear's probably going to still be better for raw DPS, but at least this way, it shifts a portion of the population away from wanting rogue gear. Considering at the Sunwell level, enh shamans, hunters and DPS warriors (case in point: gloves of immortal dusk v. the higher item level borderland paingrips off KJ) are looking at leather for maximizing DPS in addition to feral druids and rogues, Blizzard's going to have to start adding some incentives for classes to not demand leather to such a degree.

People doing cutting edge content or wanting to maximize performance are going to go for whatever is "best" as determined mathematically. At .45 AP per int I'd gain less AP from Predatory instincts than I currently do even in my bear gear. Plus HotW doesnt work in forms wrt to int, only in caster.

Unless there was some talent like "you gain 3 ap from each point of int" its likely not going to be worth having on your feral gear instead of pure feral stats (say hit/experitise which are good for both dps and tanking)

• Astrylian · 05/22/08, 4:04 PM

HotW is an 8 point talent, that's how I look at it.

Regarding Rawr's value of agi vs sta... The value of agi (avoidance) goes up with having more avoidance. Sta is worth more to you because you have relatively lower dodge. If you had high dodge, agi would be rated higher. Both extremes are viable ways to gear... I'm personally in the same Sta-focused rut, as we're working on Brutallus, and we're still having tank gib problems, but can't frelling wait to go back to Agi-focusing.

lairpie · 05/22/08, 4:11 PM

Yeah, in comparison, necklace of the deep with agi gems ranks by far the highest for me assuming I am uncritable. Its funny that sta and agi just scale so amazingly well as a druid that an effectively 2 stat crafted lvl 65 blue neck is arguably the best in the game.

MisterMerf · 05/22/08, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Veyd

So I saw the unhittable rogue video... and thought, 'hey... druids get more dodge per point of agility than anyone... shouldn't we be able to do something similar?'

I tried for a pre-Sunwell set as well. Would have been easily achievable if Idol of Terror proc could refresh itself. Alas, without it...I could only get up to 98.28% avoidance with a moonkin, hunter, and enh shaman. (And full standard raid buffs.)

That's 98.28 after subtracting out .6% miss and .6% dodge for a level 73 mob.

Promethius · 05/22/08, 4:14 PM

Are you positive the INT gain from HotW isn't applied at all times? I'd expect druidbar mana tracking addons to be much less accurate if such was the case, coupled with instances where being at full mana going into a form and shifting out would leave you with a mana deficit, similar to switching from a weapon with no INT to a healing weapon with INT. Also, I didn't intend to do away with the attack power contribution provided by level, but rather supplement it with the INT:AP factor.

I'll agree that other stats such as hit/expertise are going to be better, but that doesn't necessarily rule out INT as a potential stat that could be used towards maximization. Because of diminshing returns of stacking stats on a single piece of gear as dictated by itemization formulas, having the broadest stat spread per piece would make for the strongest itemization. Ideally, if an INT:AP conversion existed, you'd want STR, AGI, STA, INT, hit, crit, expertise, haste, armor pen + whatever new mechanics are introduced all on the same piece of gear to maximize how many total stats you could get, distributed accordingly by proportional weight (i.e. piece with 100 STR 0 INT would gain AP if a few points of that were converted to INT under an INT:AP conversion talent).

Also, for raids, there's the issue of maximizing individual performance, but also the issue of scarcity of loot and although a single piece may be best for many, decisions must be made to find how to distribute it to better the raid best as a whole. Take Felmyst's leggings of immortal night/beast for example, both are best for druids for dps/tanking respectively, but if rogues and druids are upgrading from relatively even gear, raid dps would benefit most from the legs going to a rogue and raid utility would increse most with the legs being converted given to the druid. It just wouldn't make sense giving immortal night to a druid first (barring severe undergearing in comparison to competitors) for maximizing performance because of the issue of scarcity of loot at the cutting edge.

coredumperror · 05/22/08, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by Valerian

Plus HotW doesnt work in forms wrt to int, only in caster.

Are you sure? Maybe the tooltip's just misleading, but it says "Increases your intellect by 20%. In addition, ... bear and cat bonuses..."

On a completely different note, does it bug anyone else that so much text is wasted on mentioning "in Bear and Dire Bear form" on talents, skills, and FAP items? You can't even go into Bear Form after training Dire Bear Form at 40, so why bother mentioning it on gear and talents that you can't get until after you've permanently removed your ability to take on that form? And no, the argument that someone might not train Dire Bear Form is moot because the gear/talents should force one to train it anyway, because it's inexcusably dumb to not do so.

Ledneh · 05/22/08, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by lairpie

Yeah, in comparison, necklace of the deep with agi gems ranks by far the highest for me assuming I am uncritable. Its funny that sta and agi just scale so amazingly well as a druid that an effectively 2 stat crafted lvl 65 blue neck is arguably the best in the game.

Lord knows if I were ever caught wearing it I'd have a lot of explaining to do to not get kicked out of a raid.

I guess then my dodge is lower than expected while my health is higher? What's a more average level of dodge to have at my (3t6) gear level?

Valerian · 05/22/08, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by coredumperror

Are you sure? Maybe the tooltip's just misleading, but it says "Increases your intellect by 20%. In addition, ... bear and cat bonuses..."

Hmm you're right it does just flat give an int bonus. Odd I always thought it didn't apply for some reason in forms. My mistake.

Mijae · 05/22/08, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by coredumperror

I just realized something about the change to Mangle (bear) only affecting Maul instead of Shred. Unless Mangle (bear) and mangle (cat) can can both be on a mob at the same time, that'll utterly ruin cat DPS on bear-tanked targets by making shred not have the 30% bonus all the time, if at all. I guess with 2t6 and the -6 energy per mangle talent, mangle may outpace shred in terms of damage/energy, but I'm still worried about this change.

I highly doubt they would make one overwrite the other. It wouldn't make sense at all imo. That would be like only allowing one warlock curse of any kind.

The real question is how each debuff will affect bleeds. It only makes sense that the cat one would, else it would be a HUGE nerf to Rip. Removing it from the bear version will be a different sort of nerf, especially if there isn't a cat in raid. Then your lacerates and other classes bleeds would not be getting the bonus. Now, if they both increase bleed damage, it could be very interesting.

Another point to mention is that if there will now be 2 different Mangle debuffs getting applied, that would be another debuff slot that will be taken up. Not a major issue, but one to consider in raid composition.

lairpie · 05/22/08, 6:15 PM

Its almost impossible to imagine them not either upping the debuff cap dramatically, or just removing it based on the number of debuffs being added, an increased viability of deep affliction beyond just to get malediction, warrior bleeds buffed to where rend might be useful, multiple mangles, infected wounds, and lots of other stuff.

• Astrylian · 05/22/08, 6:18 PM

I see most classes getting several new debuffs, I'd be extremely surprised if they didn't bump up the debuff limit.

Warriors get a +30% to bleeds debuff too... We'll just have to wait and see how these 3 +dmg to bleed debuffs interact.

EDIT: If all 3 were to stack multiplicatively, then we'd have 219.7% bleed damage, which would make even the current version of Rake worth using.

Aelus · 05/22/08, 6:41 PM

I'm not sure if they would allow the Warrior's new mangle and ours to stack - that seems like something that may not make it to live. That being said, they are fiddling around with Rake - increasing the base damage and such. Maybe it'll see an improvement of its own. If Tiger's Fury can be fixed (and making it free certainly helps), surely Rake can be improved.

However, if they DID stack, it would certainly be a welcome addition.

Baggles · 05/22/08, 7:55 PM

Rather than have them stack, it seems logical to just merge them back into one debuff that does maul AND shred? This is the kind of change I would expect seeing as other classes are getting absurd buffs when compared to our relatively meager ones.

Aelus · 05/22/08, 8:13 PM

Originally Posted by Baggles

Rather than have them stack, it seems logical to just merge them back into one debuff that does maul AND shred? This is the kind of change I would expect seeing as other classes are getting absurd buffs when compared to our relatively meager ones.

I'm not sure I would call the alpha buffs meager - they would certainly bring feral back as a competitive force in pvp combat. However, they just look like EXACTLY what was being asked for - no more and no less. I certainly do appreciate what Berserk would bring, if it makes it to live. The Beast Within + Adrenaline Rush + Last Stand? An impressive talent, at first glance. I'm just afraid that it'll be revoked before Beta.

Apologies for the minor thread derail, I'll pull my muzzle out and let the experts do their work

unitsinc · 05/22/08, 8:24 PM

So the rest of Kil'Jaedens loot has been unlocked and there might be a new DPS cloak for us to look at....not that too many of us will be downing him soon, but it is The Cloak of Unforgivable Sin.

26 Agi
27 Stam
Yellow Socket(4AP)
32 Haste
72 AP

We do lose some hit as compared to the Shadowmoon Destroyers, but this is like a buffed version of the Cloak of Fiends and just might pull on top.

Sorry for no item links....don't know how.

• Astrylian · 05/22/08, 8:24 PM

Originally Posted by Baggles

Rather than have them stack, it seems logical to just merge them back into one debuff that does maul AND shred? This is the kind of change I would expect seeing as other classes are getting absurd buffs when compared to our relatively meager ones.

I figure there's two reasons why they don't do that...

A) They don't want cats to not have to mangle when there's a bear tanking (maybe?)
B) The way Mangle works now, having two different abilities apply different debuffs, but refresh each other, causes *tons* of bugs. Mangle is one of the buggiest spells in the game, and they've fixed and broken things about it many times. The debuff, but not the attack, used to have infinite range and you could pull anything you could see, provided there was something in melee range to hit with the attack. Or how you can time the attack to happen right before the previous debuff wears off, to have it try to refresh the debuff, fail, so apply a different, bugged debuff. Or you can use bleeds right before it wears off but have the bleed apply after the debuff wears off, to permanently mangle it. It's been a very buggy spell, and this wouldn't be the first time that Blizz has just given up on making a spell work right, and instead just changed its intended design.

Mijae · 05/22/08, 9:25 PM

Originally Posted by unitsinc

So the rest of Kil'Jaedens loot has been unlocked and there might be a new DPS cloak for us to look at....not that too many of us will be downing him soon, but it is The Cloak of Unforgivable Sin.

[Cloak of Unforgivable Sin] is best in slot if you can get the hit efficiently elsewhere.