Feral Druid Megathread - Page 169

• Astrylian · 06/19/08, 7:39 PM

I'm guessing you meant [Idol of Terror], not [Idol of Ferocity]. And if you saw a 200dps loss between Terror and Everbloom, you were doing something massively wrong, or weren't getting the same raid/group buffs/debuffs. Neither idol comes even remotely close to providing 200dps on their own; you could go with no idol and not see even close to a 200dps loss.

And regarding the comparison... 58% uptime sounds about right, so that's an average of 38 agi constantly... It never applies to Rip or mangle, but does apply to Shreds and white attacks. So you could estimate it at about 45agi to white attacks and shreds. So like 50ish AP and 2%crit to shreds and white, or 120dmg per shred. That means like 90dmg per cycle vs 250dmg per cycle... Everbloom wins, by alot. (Note please that those are very very ballpark figures, use Rawr to find accurate figures for you. But I don't expect there's any way Terror could beat Everbloom.)

Valerian · 06/19/08, 7:41 PM

Originally Posted by Chishi

Alright, not sure if this has been covered in the past ~160 posts, but it however isn't on the main post.

I've yet to get a full armor pen set for feral dps, however, I don't believe it will be as helpful as I had first thought due to my calculations on the affect of armor on effective damage by melee swing speed. Which concluded in armor effecting slower swing speed damage more then quick swing speeds by a small amount. Either way, I plan on testing it once I manage to get the gear required for the testing.

On a side note, I've been using this thread for quite a while for basic figures. However, I happen to disagree with the use of the [Everbloom Idol].
According to multiple tests, I would lose ~ 200 dps per boss fight using the [Everbloom Idol] with an ability rotation of Mangle, Shred (till 5 CP), Rip. In most of the fights, ~ 46% of all damage done by me was from physical damage (white melee hits). During the time I had used [Idol of Ferocity], I recorded an average 58% uptime with the ability rotation I used. The 65 agility proc from [Idol of Ferocity] adds 74 AP unbuffed, 79 AP with kings (80.8 AP according to Rating Buster). The AP would slightly increase rip damage, but I'm too lazy to come up with figures for that at the moment. Along with the AP, the idol also adds temporarily to crit chance of all attacks and abilities, stacking up to 2.81% (According to Rating Buster, again, lack of worked out figures due to laziness).
I have not looked at the figures attributed to [Everbloom Idol] due to the fact that my overall performance with it decreased on multiple occasions.

Just seeing if there are others with the similar opinion.

Armor reduction is a flat %. I cannot see why it would change depending on attack speed, unless it had to do with rounding issues (a fast attack speed will have a lower attack value, generally).

As for the idols, there is no way 200 dps difference is due to only your change in idols. No single piece of gear is worth that much dps. The idol of terror (not Ferocity btw) proc is 85% chance for 65 agi for 10 seconds. As far as I can tell it has no internal cooldown but it cannot refresh itself. You won't be mangling every 10 seconds (in a proper cycle) so you have an 85% chance to have the 65 agi on for 10 seconds out of your 12 (or more) second cycle. Assuming the Rawr value for Agi is correct (its showing as .63 dps per agi for me) then this idol is worth less than 29 dps. 29 is the number im getting if I assume all my attacks in the cycle get the same weight from Agi, which is not in fact the case (Rip gets a pretty minor benefit from it).

Everbloom idol gives you 88 damage for each shred (2.2 x that if you crit). Assuming only 3 non-crit shreds, thats still ~22 dps in a 12 second cycle. At 4 shreds its 29 dps. As your crit increases you can get even more shreds in per cycle so it can be worth even more than this.

In any case they're both pretty damn close, and no where near a 200 dps difference. That type of difference clearly comes from some other factor (or likely factors).

Chishi · 06/19/08, 7:46 PM

Correct, [Idol of Terror] I tend to get them confused often.

And are you sure it doesn't increase Rip damage? With the proc from Idol of Terror active I can overright an older rip, while without it active, I receive a message that a more powerful DoT is still in effect. I can understand why it would not increase mangle damage however. And I've stopped trusting Rawr, since it places the [Pillar of Ferocity] at the top of it's bear weapon list for reasons of threat generation.

Originally Posted by Valerian

In any case they're both pretty damn close, and no where near a 200 dps difference. That type of difference clearly comes from some other factor (or likely factors).

I'll do more testing in raid environments with the [Everbloom Idol] and produce some WWS with the differences from which to compare.

• Astrylian · 06/19/08, 7:53 PM

Originally Posted by Chishi

Correct, [Idol of Terror] I tend to get them confused often.

And are you sure it doesn't increase Rip damage? With the proc from Idol of Terror active I can overright an older rip, while without it active, I receive a message that a more powerful DoT is still in effect. I can understand why it would not increase mangle damage however. And I've stopped trusting Rawr, since it places the [Pillar of Ferocity] at the top of it's bear weapon list for reasons of threat generation.

If you don't overwrite Rips, the buff is gone by the time you Rip. If you overwrite your Rip... You're doing it wrong.

And you stopped trusting Rawr because it values threat now? Come on. Just lower the value of threat if you want it lower, it's easy as hell to change.

seminarca · 06/19/08, 8:14 PM

Pretty sure [Idol of Terror] has an ICD of 10 seconds.

There's too much variance in wws reports to be able to conclusively test minute differences such as DPS contribution of Idols. Your DPS is much likely to change based on what group you were in, what consumables you used, how tight your cycles were, how lucky (or unlucky) you got with crits/dodges/misses, whether you had to Innervate or Battle res someone, how aggressively you powershifted etc etc. All the modeling I've seen on Idols (including my own napkin math) points to [Everbloom Idol] being the highest personal DPS Idol in a fully raid buffed/debuffed situation.

Thessaly · 06/19/08, 8:54 PM

Originally Posted by Chishi

Correct, [Idol of Terror] I tend to get them confused often.

And are you sure it doesn't increase Rip damage? With the proc from Idol of Terror active I can overright an older rip, while without it active, I receive a message that a more powerful DoT is still in effect. I can understand why it would not increase mangle damage however. And I've stopped trusting Rawr, since it places the [Pillar of Ferocity] at the top of it's bear weapon list for reasons of threat generation.

The proc from [Idol of Terror] might have allowed you to overwrite a rip because you gained ap as agility. But if you have the proc up when you rip, as Astrylian pointed out, you're mangling at some point other than immediately after rip, which is going to cause more dps loss than any Idol.

Valerian · 06/20/08, 8:08 AM

Originally Posted by Thessaly

The proc from [Idol of Terror] might have allowed you to overwrite a rip because you gained ap as agility. But if you have the proc up when you rip, as Astrylian pointed out, you're mangling at some point other than immediately after rip, which is going to cause more dps loss than any Idol.

I posted this as well, but now that I think about it, if your cycle is extremely close to 12 seconds consistently it shouldn't really matter when you mangle during the cycle, as long as you're only mangling once per 12 second cycle. In this regard you could have the idol effect rip. That still won't make a huge difference though. The idol contributes ~81 ap (with kings) which adds ~20 damage to rip which is a dps increase of about 1.6 dps. Not earthshattering by any means and it means running a cycle that is more prone to disruption or mistiming.

monster · 06/20/08, 8:24 AM

Originally Posted by Chishi

Correct, [Idol of Terror] I tend to get them confused often.

And are you sure it doesn't increase Rip damage? With the proc from Idol of Terror active I can overright an older rip, while without it active, I receive a message that a more powerful DoT is still in effect. I can understand why it would not increase mangle damage however. And I've stopped trusting Rawr, since it places the [Pillar of Ferocity] at the top of it's bear weapon list for reasons of threat generation.

I am not sure what exactly you are going with this here because Pillar is an amazing weapon for threat, and Windfury staff is great for avoidance.

Carlos · 06/20/08, 9:16 AM

Originally Posted by Chishi

Correct, [Idol of Terror] I tend to get them confused often.

And are you sure it doesn't increase Rip damage? With the proc from Idol of Terror active I can overright an older rip, while without it active, I receive a message that a more powerful DoT is still in effect. I can understand why it would not increase mangle damage however. And I've stopped trusting Rawr, since it places the [Pillar of Ferocity] at the top of it's bear weapon list for reasons of threat generation.

From what DPS to what DPS your are talking about? To get the message straight of Astrylian. The duration of Rip is 12 Seconds and the buff is 10 seconds so if you are able to rip while the Idol buff is active you lose at least 2 of the DoT ticks, which reduces your DPS. Your white attack prtion looks quite high from my perspective. I get about 35% white attack damage.
If the DPS Equipment is on the same lvl as your tank equip, than you should do above 1k DPS. Your equipment should be on my lvl looking. I push above 1200 DPS on Kaz'rogal.

Xelopheris · 06/20/08, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Chishi

Correct, [Idol of Terror] I tend to get them confused often.

And are you sure it doesn't increase Rip damage? With the proc from Idol of Terror active I can overright an older rip, while without it active, I receive a message that a more powerful DoT is still in effect. I can understand why it would not increase mangle damage however. And I've stopped trusting Rawr, since it places the [Pillar of Ferocity] at the top of it's bear weapon list for reasons of threat generation.

0.000 - Apply Rip
2.500 - Mangle - Gain buff.
3.000 - Rip Tick #1
...
12.000 - Apply rip with bonus AP
12.500 - Idol proc disappears.

Now I'm going to go right around and say why that doesn't work. Let's work WITH ENERGY!

0.000 - Rip - Assume 100 energy, > 70
1.000 - Tick > 90
2.5 - Mangle > 65
3.0 - Tick > 85
3.5 - Shred > 43
4.5 - Shred > 1
5.0 - Tick > 21
6.5 - Powershifted > 40
7.0 - Tick > 60
7.5 - Shred > 18
9.0 - Tick > 38
11.0 - Tick > 58.

With no OoC/2t4 procs, if you need to go as far as 3 shreds, you're 42 energy behind. If it happens twice in a row, you can't maintain the cycle and then you lose rip uptime.

And why wouldn't you think the highest FAP weapon that has armor is the best threat weapon for druids? Dodge on wildfury does jack all.

Bashui · 06/20/08, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Chishi

And I've stopped trusting Rawr, since it places the [Pillar of Ferocity] at the top of it's bear weapon list for reasons of threat generation.

Threat weight is adjustable for just this reason. Depending on your stats, they tend to come up about equal in terms of survival+mitigation (PoF has more stam and armor and AP, WG has more dodge). Rawr gives you the numbers, how you choose to make use of that information is up to you.

Rawr is based on math, not opinion. There is certainly the possibility for errors (like the current threat model, Astrylian do a new release so we can both stop apologizing for it

) and the information is only as good as the model (which can never account for everything). That being said, if you want to try to dispute what many many other people have done, you should try to be a bit more scientific in your approach.

kalbear · 06/20/08, 12:50 PM

I am not sure what exactly you are going with this here because Pillar is an amazing weapon for threat, and Windfury staff is great for avoidance.

The main reason that Pillar is greater than Wildfury in Rawr is because of the higher stamina on Pillar, not because of threat. As you gain more avoidance Wildfury will increase in overall value. Threat between the two has very little to do with their evaluation in Rawr.

I find [Staff of the Forest Lord] to be the best threat weapon; even though it doesn't have armor, it has a ton of avoidance. Having all three is valuable in general.

sal · 06/20/08, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by Bashui

Threat weight is adjustable for just this reason. Depending on your stats, they tend to come up about equal in terms of survival+mitigation (PoF has more stam and armor and AP, WG has more dodge). Rawr gives you the numbers, how you choose to make use of that information is up to you.

Rawr is based on math, not opinion. There is certainly the possibility for errors (like the current threat model, Astrylian do a new release so we can both stop apologizing for it

) and the information is only as good as the model (which can never account for everything). That being said, if you want to try to dispute what many many other people have done, you should try to be a bit more scientific in your approach.

I can not see the math being too far off with this dependent on the buffs and weight on threat you have placed in rawr. If you have either little avoidance (sunwell radiance) coupled with low armor the total damage you can take with avoidance to death may be higher with raw stamina than the avoidance of wildfury. The threat is significant as well at approximately 200AP difference between the two staves in addition to more rage from being hit more.

I would look at it this way, if your healers are fine on mana and still have time to heal others by all means go pillar and max survivabiility (crafted belt's great to). If your healers are scattered, can't keep up with your damage, or putting too much attention into you go avoidance and wildfury (or stanchion) so long as you can maintain threat (I couple with great beast or T6 for hit/avoidance). As you may have read earlier druids have used avoidance and survivability sets on most encounters in the game. If there is healing available to you survive and generate threat, if you need to take as little damage as possible go avoidance and hope you don't get spike damage or hold back dps.

Baggles · 06/20/08, 5:58 PM

I really think the [Idol of Terror] vs [Everbloom Idol] discussion should be squashed. Everbloom has shown to outperform terror all legitimate math, experience, and even just in logic. No matter how much theorycraft you can muster, you're adding flat damage to what abouts to between 30 and 45% of your overall damage. Even if you maintained a perfect rotation, got lucky with crits and timing and kept terror up for EVERY rip, it still would appear to fall short. Anecdotal evidence aside, I don't think it's really an argument from an ideal dps perspective. Even [Idol of the Raven Goddess] would appear to be more valuable than terror.

Relative · 06/20/08, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Chishi

Alright, not sure if this has been covered in the past ~160 posts, but it however isn't on the main post.

I've yet to get a full armor pen set for feral dps, however, I don't believe it will be as helpful as I had first thought due to my calculations on the affect of armor on effective damage by melee swing speed. Which concluded in armor effecting slower swing speed damage more then quick swing speeds by a small amount. Either way, I plan on testing it once I manage to get the gear required for the testing.

On a side note, I've been using this thread for quite a while for basic figures. However, I happen to disagree with the use of the [Everbloom Idol].
According to multiple tests, I would lose ~ 200 dps per boss fight using the [Everbloom Idol] with an ability rotation of Mangle, Shred (till 5 CP), Rip. In most of the fights, ~ 46% of all damage done by me was from physical damage (white melee hits). During the time I had used [Idol of Ferocity], I recorded an average 58% uptime with the ability rotation I used. The 65 agility proc from [Idol of Ferocity] adds 74 AP unbuffed, 79 AP with kings (80.8 AP according to Rating Buster). The AP would slightly increase rip damage, but I'm too lazy to come up with figures for that at the moment. Along with the AP, the idol also adds temporarily to crit chance of all attacks and abilities, stacking up to 2.81% (According to Rating Buster, again, lack of worked out figures due to laziness).
I have not looked at the figures attributed to [Everbloom Idol] due to the fact that my overall performance with it decreased on multiple occasions.

Just seeing if there are others with the similar opinion.

Armor Penetrations value is very dependent on the base armor of the mob, and what debuffs are up on it, its a useful stat, but you shouldnt "stack" it to the exclusion of other stats.

In regards to the Idol of Terror vs Everboom Idol:

Please post the following:

a) Testing methodology, step by step so that others can reproduce your results to verify such a claim
b) WWS or at least combat logs of your personal tests
c) The entire raid makeup for all your personal tests, please include the uptime of all debuffs on the boss with this.
d) The gearset you were using for each test

Deciding to not trust a tried an true gearset calculator like Rawr on the basis that you don't like seeing a certain item at the top of the list is astounding.

Personally, if I'm looking at two different items in Rawr, and out of the two, I want to see which has better survival/mitigation stats on it, I look at the survival mitigation scores for those items and ignore the number for "threat". But maybe I'm crazy.

Dack · 06/20/08, 6:40 PM

Originally Posted by Xelopheris

0.000 - Apply Rip
2.500 - Mangle - Gain buff.
3.000 - Rip Tick #1
...
12.000 - Apply rip with bonus AP
12.500 - Idol proc disappears.

Now I'm going to go right around and say why that doesn't work.

Rip ticks every 2 seconds, so you would lose some dmg on the first tick...

Phorage · 06/21/08, 6:14 AM

Anyone tried if Deathfrost enchant works while shapeshifted yet?

Hoofhearted · 06/21/08, 7:10 AM

I tried Deathfrost for 500 hits and it does not work in forms. In human form it procced on my fourth hit.

beastsdruid · 06/21/08, 8:59 PM

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Feature List

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EDIT2: Sorry I read the guidelines after this post and have adjusted it accordingly. I now know that I need to make 10 solid posts here before I even have a chance at my own thread. Sorry to post here wasn't sure where to post exactly. I'm not going to rush out and do 8 silly posts. I'll wait till I get some quality time to put in some quality posts. Forgive me for having this here for now.