seminarca

From my current understanding of combat mechanics, for single roll attacks (white hits) the weapon skill to defense disparity between a player and boss mob should only result in -0.6% crit [0.04 (anticrit per defense) * 5 (defense per level) * 3 (level difference)].

For two roll attacks (yellow damage) as onkl said, miss/dodge will reduce observed crit value.

So if your chance to crit is 40%, and you have 5% chance to miss and the boss has 5.6% chance to dodge, your actual crit rate on yellow attacks will be:

89.4% of specials will land
of those, 40% will crit
So your observed crit chance should be: 35.76% across all attacks

If you were hit capped with no Expertise:
94.4% of specials will land
Observed crit chance: 37.76%

If you were hit capped with 5 Expertise:
95.65% of specials will land
Observed crit chance: 38.26%

Bullie, can you link that thread please?

 

Deliverance

This is the thread, Seminarca: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> [Bug?/Theorycrafting] Feral crit chance

There are some WWS data samples in post 10 (way too limited a sample for general purposes), a couple of posts with anecdotal evidence, a few posts from the clueless, and a short discussion of confidence intervals. This subject appears, on the face of it, to warrant further investigation, as there's just enough "me toos" to suggest that something might be going on without enough data to either prove or disprove a general pattern.

 

• Daboran

Not going into specifics, but you'll find that if you wear more resilience-based armor you can get a lot higher on stamina for relatively little cost in armor or dodge lost due to using less +def items. The season 3 items generally have equivalent stamina/sockets to T6 with only slightly less armor.

 

Monique

I've got an Excel of 2100+ shreds and mangles from our WWS reports. I'm somewhat safe bet as a test subject as I'm not benefitting from agility totems at any point on our raids, I'm mostly in MT group and was using the mark flasks on raids.

I got a gear upgrade and at the same time bought a good stack of agi pots, with the good intention of using those to test how a notable, 5% increase affects the results.

My crit rate at 41,2% yielded an actual crit rate of 35,9% (delta 5,3%) with a sample size of 1715 mangles and shreds.
My crit rate at 46,5% yielded an actual crit rate of 41,9% (delta 4,6%) with a sample size of 420 mangles and shreds (one week, I'll continue tracking this in raids to come).

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spoke

There is a suggestion in the thread that the problem might come from LotP. Personally, I think this is unlikely.

There would be an easy way to test this if we could click LotP off. If I recall correctly, that's not possible (I'm not at home to test right now). Maybe another class, grouped with a Feral, would be able to do so though? Of course, any kind of bug might only materialise when LotP is applied to ourselves.

From my experience, my yellow critical rate isn't generally any lower than I would expect from a two roll system. Is it possible this could be an issue with the European copy of the game only, or are the builds the same?

 

Imbar

We wouldn't be able to clip LotP off, because like pallies, that would cause the rest of our party to lose the buff as well.
You're right though, that would make testing extremely easy.
I'm not certain if other classes can click it off or not, but I'd venture the guess that they can't.

Also, all copies of the game are (unless I'm ignorant to some extraneous factor) exactly the same, so European or not, the builds are all the same.
(It would be wildly unfair if half the game's population had a one-roll system, as opposed to a two-roll.)

 

Relative

So I've run into a bit of a gear question for the experts. Currently I am the leader/MT of a 10 man raiding group which does Kara and ZA. We just started our second and 3rd Kara/ZA groups with the hopes of moving into 25 man content soon. I have "some" gear from 25 man content which means I am slightly overgeared for the content we are currently pounding through. Once in 25 man content (due to the lack of warriors) I will most likely be main tanking as well.

I have 2 options for tanking at the moment.

Option A: 35.8k armor, 37% dodge, crit immune from DEF, 18.7k HP (this setup includes 4pT4)
CTProfiles.net: World of Warcraft Profiles � Gwindor � Option A

Option B: 33.5k armor, 40% dodge, crit immune from Res. 19.2K HP (this setup includes 2pS3)
CTProfiles.net: World of Warcraft Profiles � Gwindor � Option B

Dont pay attention to ctprofiles stats... they are waaay off. The stats I posted reflect the correct values when 10man raid buffed.

Rawr seems to say that going with Option A is better for mitigation. Due to the fact that Option B gets me 2pS3 gear (which is great for dps and is gem'd/enchanted for dps) I do output 60-100 more TPS on average using Option B.

And before you say anything, I am aware that using a 12 def enchant on my bracers is better point allocation then a 12 stam one. I'm also aware that some of my gear is lacking enchants (working on that)

My question is:

Which would you wear, why, and which slots would you swap out with badge/honor/arena gear?

 

Maeltne

Keep in mind that due to the additional miss chance granted my defence, your 'dodge+miss' rate with defence is going to be about an absolute 2.6% higher than the 'dodge+miss' rate of resilience.

There is no question that option A is better on overall mitigation. About the only change I would make to the Option A setup is to swap the MoT for the Moroes Trinket. I'd also consider the Juggernaut badge neck.

 

Valerian

Are these "actual" crit rates modified by your miss/dodge chance? Remember yellow attacks are on a two roll system so if you're missing or being dodged a lot, the crit rate (over all your attacks) will be less than your actual crit %.

 

Relative

Actually the Dodge+Miss of each setup is as follows

Option A: 44%

Option B: 46%

Giving Option B the advantage for overall avoidance.

 

Divinefactor

I would wear option B, both setups put you right near or on the armor cap whereas option B gives you an extra 500 max hp and more avoidance

 

david0925

B is the better choice

 

Foxe

What's the deal with the ZA leather loot? Is the armor pen a significant dps increase in cat or no? The deal is that my druid is 4/5 T4 but the guild I'm with now isn't running 25s, but clearing everything except Zul'Jin in ZA. Wondering if its worth replacing the shoulders, the girdle of treachery and the helm (when we get Jin down). Also, is the staff that drops of Malacras worth it? It has no hit rating on it a la Terestrian's which seems... odd.

 

Rannasha

The staff is a good upgrade over Terestrian's. Hit-rating is overrated by many druids, at no gear level is it better than agility and at the T4-level it also not as good as strength. The fact that a missed Mangle or Shred only costs 20% of the normal energy cost and that most of our damage comes from specials rather than white attacks, makes it easy to see why hit rating is not as good for Druids as it is for other melee classes.

 

Foxe

Alright, so the staff is an upgrade. The question, then, is whether or not the leather items are upgrades over T4/girdle of treachery.

 

Liar

Did you try playing around with the DPS spreadsheet linked in the first or second post? The value of Armor Penetration and well, basically everything else, is dynamic and dependent on your overall gear. You really won't get a better answer than plugging your numbers into a sheet.

 

◊ Vaccine

I wasn't a big fan of Armour Penetration on paper because of the fact it didn't apply to Rip. But the more I've used it, and attained it in greater proportions, the more I've grown to like it and note marked DPS increases. Thats not to say I've gone out of my way to get it or use sub optimal items for it but when I've got it on otherwise good items, its stacked up nicely. I use [Signet of Primal Wrath], [Staff of Primal Fury] and [Bladeangel's Money Belt]. Probaly pickup Azlagor's pants if they ever drop as well for around 700 armour Pen.

[G] <70:Timby>: I downloaded 26gigs of poirot episodes overnight
[G] <70:Timby>: and still missing seasons 11-13
[G] <70:Timby>: am I crazy?

 

Monique

As you can see in the Excel, I counted only the second roll crit chance (crit/(crit+hit)), which according to the current theory should pretty much equal your crit chance (-defense reduction, 0,6%).

 

mesh7

This is something i've wanted to discuss for awhile, i've always tried to get my +hit as close to 142 as possible, following toskk's and the druid dps excel guide from these forums. However do they take a shred/mangle miss as a 100% dps loss or only a 20% dps loss as Rannasha suggests?

 

Torpesh

In practice I think it's going to be greater than a 20% DPS loss. A lot of TBC fights involve a great deal of mobility for melee classes. If you miss your final Rip before a ground stomp from Gruul, or before running out to click a cube in the Magtheridon fight, or maybe missing a Shred before being hit by the static charge in Vashj and having to run out then you will lose more than 20% because you would have ended up with 100 energy before going back in, whether or not that special attack had used full or partial energy.

I'm not sure where exactly I would put +hit in the scheme of things, but it's easy enough to hit the 142 cap (at least if you're in T4 content) while only sacrificing one or two gem slots for it. I use my DPS set for tanking Leo - although I change out one of my rings for the [Shapeshifter's Signet]. Staying hit-capped let's me just do this without worrying about toting around even more spare armor pieces. 3+ sets of armor is already too much.

 

Laree

I've read a lot about feral druids and i'm wondering if anyone can show me what exact gear you need to get 5k attack power / 50% crit... someone said you're able to get those kind of stats, is that true? I was looking for a link to a page showing how to achieve this... but i can't seem to find anything.... if someone could link me if you have it on hand i'd appreciate it. I have access to all the gear in this game but i can't seem to get 5k ap and 50% crit even raid buffed.. am i not using the right gear?

 

dukes

The World of Warcraft Armory

That gear setup hits 5k+ AP and 50%+ crit with raid buffs (BoK/MoTW/Cat Form (+LotP)/Battle Shout/Strength of Earth/Unleashed Rage/Agi Pot). Unfortunately I don't have a screenshot with the normal raid buffed stats lying around, but unbuffed is around 3.5k AP and 42% crit.

 

Aranan

As a feral druid attempting to gear up for a tanking role, I would appreciate a little bit of guidance. I know the top priority is to get immune to critical hits, followed by "decent" armor/hp/dodge values. However, I'm not really sure what "decent" counts as.

Rawr has two seperate values, mitigation (armor + avoidance) and survival (which I think is: hitpoints + mitigation, assuming no heals?), and mentions that after achieving enough hitpoints to not be killed by burst damage one should focus on mitigation. Would that be something along the lines of 15,000HP (unbuffed) for T4 level? What about T5 and T6?

 

• Falk

Through the course of TBC I've aimed for these in order when deciding between gear choices:

1) uncrittable
2) 30k armor
3) 15k unbuffed HP in bear form (not counting Tauren racial)
4) avoidance

in that priority, on the count of both available itemization and what's needed in the various tiers of gear. Of course, even after 2 and 3, I'd take a good chunk of either over 1-2% more avoidance, but those would be my baseline estimates before I even started worrying about getting more dodge.

I feel it's a lot more straightforward than warrior/paladin itemization, because in most cases, there exists only one item of debatably best value in each slot, in each tier. However, if itemization provides a close decision between the three, go for stam and armor.

 

◊ Farstrider