Feral Druid Megathread - Page 61

zeusal · 01/23/08, 4:09 PM

Hello all, I wanted to pose a question to all you great theory crafters out there regarding 5/5 Feral Aggression to get opinions on it for a few use scenarios:

1. Ferocious Bite (1.15%) on bleed immune mobs i.e. Void Reaver, Undead in Kara, etc
(I recall someone posting that you shouldn't never use FB with more than ~30 energy even on bleed immune mobs, to the effect stating don't use your combo points at all just keep mangle shred cycling, do we agree this is best?)
2. Demo Roar AP reduction benefit for Main Tanks vs. Thick Hide
3. PVP applications of FB, against high resilience opponents

If I should start a new thread to discuss this please let me know; or if this is appropriate place, any commentary would be greatly apprecatied.

dukes · 01/23/08, 5:04 PM

1) Yes, ferocious bite is worth is on bleed immune bosses, providing you have low energy. If you were to take the talent, it would make it more worth it (especially if you have the 4t6 bonus). The only problem with this is, what do you drop from the rest of the talents? Assuming you take this as the base build, where do you spend the 8 points? I would normally say natural shapeshifter, savage fury, brutal impact and one "free" point (probably in reflection, or maybe all of reflection or primal tenacity instead of brutal impact too). All these are optional, but I would say that, at a glance, savage fury will add more overall damage to your build than feral instincts, per point, even if you use ferocious bite every time. Most people won't take it just because it uses too many points for too slim a gain.

2) A warriors demo shout is about as powerful at base level as fully improved demo roar (proof - they get a rank of demo shout at 70 and we're left with the level 62 version). It's just not worth the point investment if you have one regular warrior, and that aspect is completely wasted if you have a warrior with improved demo shout in the raid.

3) No idea - someone else can answer it or you can try the PvP sub-forum.

Ghoselle · 01/23/08, 8:01 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

2) A warriors demo shout is about as powerful at base level as fully improved demo roar (proof - they get a rank of demo shout at 70 and we're left with the level 62 version). It's just not worth the point investment if you have one regular warrior, and that aspect is completely wasted if you have a warrior with improved demo shout in the raid.

3 points of improved demo roar is just slightly better than the base warrior version -- and will keep the base warrior version from going up.

Base druid is 248 AP reduction.
3 points is 307.5.
5 points is 347.2.
Base warrior is 300 AP reduction.
2 point is 348 AP.
5 point is 420 AP.

IIRC, other theorycraft is that mobs have about ~340AP. Barring curse of recklessness, I think 2 points for a warrior or 5 points for a druid removes pretty much all the mobs AP.

But yeah, warrior is better for raiding. But if you have no warriors with improved demo shout, a druid can usefully get a higher benefit than a warrior's base level with 5 ranks.

How to find 5 points free to do that is another problem.

(Edited because I had the wrong base value since I mistaken assumed thot would be accurate.)

roquer · 01/24/08, 1:32 AM

Is there a good mod that will equip [Charm of Swift Flight] every time you enter flight form?

I thought itemrack would eventually add it since they have an option for travel form, but it wasn't there last time I checked.

Tasonir · 01/24/08, 1:51 AM

I suppose my talent spec must be somewhat uncommon then:

The World of Warcraft Armory

I've got 3/5 points in feral aggression, mainly for the improvement to demo roar. It doesn't hurt for bleed immune bosses or trash either, but I can verify that it does in fact keep non-talented warrior shouts off. Only one tank in my guild (of 3 warriors) has improved demo shout, actually. Quite surprised to hear that it's 297.6AP, as I had just assumed it was slightly over 300 on account of it beating a warrior's shout.

Anyways, as a high end raider with no interest in pvp, Brutal Impact is right out. Just about everything's stun immune anyways. 3 talent points isn't worth 10 rage from Intensity, and my mana doesn't run out in feral forms anyways. I don't powershift as much as I should, so natural shapeshifter wouldn't help me much either. I realize gaining even 10 energy is probably around 400-500ish damage (just off the top of my head estimate) but doing it about 10 more times with the talent is around 4k-5k damage, which is around 1.5% more damage. Rough figures and all that, but it just doesn't appeal to me.

With that said, you might as well take the whole feral tree and dump the last 3 into feral aggression.

Am I underestimating powershifting in 2.3?

HaklePrime · 01/24/08, 1:55 AM

Originally Posted by Tasonir

I suppose my talent spec must be somewhat uncommon then:

The World of Warcraft Armory

I've got 3/5 points in feral aggression, mainly for the improvement to demo roar. It doesn't hurt for bleed immune bosses or trash either, but I can verify that it does in fact keep non-talented warrior shouts off. Only one tank in my guild (of 3 warriors) has improved demo shout, actually. Quite surprised to hear that it's 297.6AP, as I had just assumed it was slightly over 300 on account of it beating a warrior's shout.

Anyways, as a high end raider with no interest in pvp, Brutal Impact is right out. Just about everything's stun immune anyways. 3 talent points isn't worth 10 rage from Intensity, and my mana doesn't run out in feral forms anyways. I don't powershift as much as I should, so natural shapeshifter wouldn't help me much either. I realize gaining even 10 energy is probably around 400-500ish damage (just off the top of my head estimate) but doing it about 10 more times with the talent is around 4k-5k damage, which is around 1.5% more damage. Rough figures and all that, but it just doesn't appeal to me.

With that said, you might as well take the whole feral tree and dump the last 3 into feral aggression.

Am I underestimating powershifting in 2.3?

Considering it's near-instant now, if you aren't powershifting, yes, you're underestimating it. Just shoot for below 10 energy when you do it, otherwise you may possibly lose energy.

Use the almighty /cancelform of course.

• Daboran · 01/24/08, 3:41 AM

Originally Posted by roquer

Is there a good mod that will equip [Charm of Swift Flight] every time you enter flight form?

I thought itemrack would eventually add it since they have an option for travel form, but it wasn't there last time I checked.

Just look at the Travelform code in Itemrack - it's easy enough to copy/paste/edit Flight Form as an option into Itemrack using the in-game gui. I added mine when Flight Form was introduced so I've no idea if it's added by default now.

Originally Posted by Tasonir

Anyways, as a high end raider with no interest in pvp, Brutal Impact is right out. Just about everything's stun immune anyways. 3 talent points isn't worth 10 rage from Intensity, and my mana doesn't run out in feral forms anyways. I don't powershift as much as I should, so natural shapeshifter wouldn't help me much either. I realize gaining even 10 energy is probably around 400-500ish damage (just off the top of my head estimate) but doing it about 10 more times with the talent is around 4k-5k damage, which is around 1.5% more damage. Rough figures and all that, but it just doesn't appeal to me.

With that said, you might as well take the whole feral tree and dump the last 3 into feral aggression.

Am I underestimating powershifting in 2.3?

In my experience Brutal Impact is useful enough to be worth taking, even if limited. Although I've considered dropping Natural Shapeshifter there are some encounters where it's been indispensible - prime examples are Morogrim shifting between dps and offtank-shepherding Murlocs or healing myself after a grave. Illidan phase 4 (I'm FR tank) I just stay in caster and keep myself and the Warlock's Felhound alive which is two less jobs for the raid healers to think about. I suppose it all depends on your playstyle, but I've almost run myself out of mana on occasion and always carry Mana Pots to every raid.

Pyth · 01/24/08, 4:14 AM

Originally Posted by roquer

Is there a good mod that will equip [Charm of Swift Flight] every time you enter flight form?

I thought itemrack would eventually add it since they have an option for travel form, but it wasn't there last time I checked.

trigger = PLAYER_AURAS_CHANGED
script =

local form = ItemRack_GetForm()
if not IR_FORM and form=="Swift Flight Form" then
  EquipSet()
elseif IR_FORM and form~="Swift Flight Form" then
  LoadSet()
end
IR_FORM=form
--[[Equips set to be worn while flying.]]

Duilliath · 01/24/08, 6:41 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoselle

3 points of improved demo roar is just slightly better than the base warrior version -- and will keep the base warrior version from going up.

Base druid is 240 AP reduction.

I think that's because the thottbot version is off - in game lists it as 248.

--

Ledneh - instead of blowing an absolute ton of badges on that chest, take a look at the arena s3 chest. It'll take a couple weeks, but it pretty much blows everything else out of the water in terms of pure unadulterated stats.

Pherox · 01/24/08, 7:48 AM

Now I've read through most of the threads and I havn't seen this brought up yet, if it has, please, please do link me and I'll read it at once!

But sometimes when instancing and raiding I'm seeing redicilously amplified rip-ticks. Normally I'd do 650-700 per tick or so with mangle up, depending on buffs, however I've encountered ticks as high as 900 just randomly, and then later in the fight down to 650-700ish. How can this be? It's surely not any boss weaknesses and no additional buffs I can think of that would boost this so much. Can this have something to do with the mangle timing? (And no, it's not that any double-mangle is up cause of precise timing either, it can happen when I run alone).

Anyone else encountered this yet? And anyone have any clue to why it can happen?

Torpesh · 01/24/08, 10:09 AM

Pherox, do you use [Tsunami Talisman] or any other item that procs on events? The ticks from a Rip will reflect what your AP was at the time that you applied the Rip, so if you have a temporary buff that will make a difference.

kiyona · 01/24/08, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Pherox

Now I've read through most of the threads and I havn't seen this brought up yet, if it has, please, please do link me and I'll read it at once!

But sometimes when instancing and raiding I'm seeing redicilously amplified rip-ticks. Normally I'd do 650-700 per tick or so with mangle up, depending on buffs, however I've encountered ticks as high as 900 just randomly, and then later in the fight down to 650-700ish. How can this be? It's surely not any boss weaknesses and no additional buffs I can think of that would boost this so much. Can this have something to do with the mangle timing? (And no, it's not that any double-mangle is up cause of precise timing either, it can happen when I run alone).

Anyone else encountered this yet? And anyone have any clue to why it can happen?

I have experienced this myself. At first I thought it was wierd, but assumed it was just several random damage enhancing buffs that happened at the same time, like BM Hunters Ferocious Inspiration, Survival Hunters Expose Weakness, random proc trinkets and Shamans Unleashed Rage.

However, after doing the math, I don't think that even this can push Rip damage that high. However, if we assume that the Mangle Debuff somehow would be counted twice for one Rip, then the math seems correct. (~540 * 1.3 * 1.3 = ~900)

*edit* *edit again, rip is 6 ticks, yes?*
According to wowwiki, rank 7 Rip damage is Attack Power * 0,24 + 1092. So to achieve ticks of 900 with Mangle only counted once, you would need:
( 900*6 - 1092 ) / 0,24 / 1,3 = 13807 AP
( TickDamage * NrOfTicks - 1092 ) / Rip AP Modifier / Mangle Bonus

I hope my math is correct, but I think I messed up somewhere.

Ledneh · 01/24/08, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Duilliath

I think that's because the thottbot version is off - in game lists it as 248.

--

Ledneh - instead of blowing an absolute ton of badges on that chest, take a look at the arena s3 chest. It'll take a couple weeks, but it pretty much blows everything else out of the water in terms of pure unadulterated stats.

Grah, why is so much of our best equipment PvP gear! I hate PvP, and I especially hate arenas.

Torik · 01/24/08, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Pherox

Now I've read through most of the threads and I havn't seen this brought up yet, if it has, please, please do link me and I'll read it at once!

But sometimes when instancing and raiding I'm seeing redicilously amplified rip-ticks. Normally I'd do 650-700 per tick or so with mangle up, depending on buffs, however I've encountered ticks as high as 900 just randomly, and then later in the fight down to 650-700ish. How can this be? It's surely not any boss weaknesses and no additional buffs I can think of that would boost this so much. Can this have something to do with the mangle timing? (And no, it's not that any double-mangle is up cause of precise timing either, it can happen when I run alone).

Anyone else encountered this yet? And anyone have any clue to why it can happen?

I know what it is... It's a mange bug it was from the version 2.0
Some times you can get double mangle bonus on bleeds (damaga*1.3*1.3)

To look like it works best way to see - go skettis and find elite trees go bear form and:
1) make 5x lacerates and write down the bleeed damage number
2) add mangle look it = damage*1.3
3) wait it all wears off and now add mangle and wait until it 2-0.5 sec left for mangle debuff to wear off and now start lacereting get 5x lacerates and WOOT no mangle debuff but it tics for (damage*1.3) now add mangle and WOOOOT (damage*1.3*1.3)

To have it you must be the only druid so mangle debuff can wear off, in cat you can some times see this bug becouse of rip GCD mangle - standart damage order, if in next 12 sec you get 4-5combo and right after rip end add new rip (it's in time 1sec before mangle wears off, and for some unknown reason server resume count it in damage even it ended) you add new mangle and have rip = (damage*1.3*1.3)

last time in ZA i have this bug two times in order =) (becouse of lucky on crits and OOC and T4 set bonus so can get 70energy + 5combo in 12sec)

Garanthir · 01/24/08, 10:53 AM

Well I guess it really is personal preference and perception. I like Brutal Impact in PvE, Hyjal caster trash comes to mind immediately, actually a lot of areas come to mind where I find it handy. Also, in my opinion, reducing mana costs for shape shifting isn't just for power shifting. I find myself shifting a lot to get out of snares, picking up trash, charging back to a boss, going travel form (obviously outdoors), etc.

I would also ask that unless you are MT'ng with no Warriors (you have at least 1) that have Imp. Demo Shout what good would an improved Demo Roar be? If you are OT I guess it could come in handy in limited situations where your mob might be up long enough for it to be of use. But if you are in cat form for DPS then you'd have to swap back and forth to apply the Roar and that would be very inefficient and plain silly.

Not arguing, just trying to understand your logic.

Originally Posted by Tasonir

I suppose my talent spec must be somewhat uncommon then:

The World of Warcraft Armory

I've got 3/5 points in feral aggression, mainly for the improvement to demo roar. It doesn't hurt for bleed immune bosses or trash either, but I can verify that it does in fact keep non-talented warrior shouts off. Only one tank in my guild (of 3 warriors) has improved demo shout, actually. Quite surprised to hear that it's 297.6AP, as I had just assumed it was slightly over 300 on account of it beating a warrior's shout.

Anyways, as a high end raider with no interest in pvp, Brutal Impact is right out. Just about everything's stun immune anyways. 3 talent points isn't worth 10 rage from Intensity, and my mana doesn't run out in feral forms anyways. I don't powershift as much as I should, so natural shapeshifter wouldn't help me much either. I realize gaining even 10 energy is probably around 400-500ish damage (just off the top of my head estimate) but doing it about 10 more times with the talent is around 4k-5k damage, which is around 1.5% more damage. Rough figures and all that, but it just doesn't appeal to me.

With that said, you might as well take the whole feral tree and dump the last 3 into feral aggression.

Am I underestimating powershifting in 2.3?

Ghoselle · 01/24/08, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ledneh

Grah, why is so much of our best equipment PvP gear! I hate PvP, and I especially hate arenas.

Because blizzard didn't understand ferals. So its only the newly released gear after places like here had done a lot of theorycraft this is actually itemized for ferals. If you aren't killing illidan, there is a fair chunk of gear you want from PVP for feral cat.

Foxtel · 01/24/08, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Pherox

Now I've read through most of the threads and I havn't seen this brought up yet, if it has, please, please do link me and I'll read it at once!

But sometimes when instancing and raiding I'm seeing redicilously amplified rip-ticks. Normally I'd do 650-700 per tick or so with mangle up, depending on buffs, however I've encountered ticks as high as 900 just randomly, and then later in the fight down to 650-700ish. How can this be? It's surely not any boss weaknesses and no additional buffs I can think of that would boost this so much. Can this have something to do with the mangle timing? (And no, it's not that any double-mangle is up cause of precise timing either, it can happen when I run alone).

Anyone else encountered this yet? And anyone have any clue to why it can happen?

Originally Posted by Torik

I know what it is... It's a mange bug it was from the version 2.0
Some times you can get double mangle bonus on bleeds (damaga*1.3*1.3)

Also be aware that the reverse can happen. If you apply mangle on a target, very shortly after the current mangle debuff expires, it can sometimes ignore the mangle bleed effects bonus and just do damage equal to an un-mangled rip. Re-applying mangle whilst the current rip is ticking won’t alter its damage in anyway (same applies with the 1.3*1.3 rip bonus mentioned earlier), but your new rip once your current rip has expired should behave normally, whether or not there is a mangle debuff on the target. This altercation doesn’t affect shred in anyway.

Ledneh · 01/24/08, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoselle

Because blizzard didn't understand ferals. So its only the newly released gear after places like here had done a lot of theorycraft this is actually itemized for ferals. If you aren't killing illidan, there is a fair chunk of gear you want from PVP for feral cat.

Well, I do more feral bear work than feral cat, is the [Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Tunic] still gonna be better for me than [Vestments of Hibernation] for off/maintanking? It looks to me like an emphatic yes except for the armor loss by comparison (still much more than my [Shadowprowler's Chestguard], though), which means I get to arena. Woo.

Argh I hate arenas, the idea that you can lose your way to purps infuriates me to no end. But I digress.

Duilliath · 01/24/08, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Ledneh

Well, I do more feral bear work than feral cat, is the [Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Tunic] still gonna be better for me than [Vestments of Hibernation] for off/maintanking? It looks to me like an emphatic yes except for the armor loss by comparison (still much more than my [Shadowprowler's Chestguard], though), which means I get to arena. Woo.

Argh I hate arenas, the idea that you can lose your way to purps infuriates me to no end. But I digress.

I enjoy arenas - it's nice to know that noone in your team is going to be an AFK-bot...

Anyway, you'll lose some armour and a bit of agility (depending on how you socket), but 90 stamina on a single item is mindboggling.

Torpesh · 01/24/08, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by roquer

Is there a good mod that will equip [Charm of Swift Flight] every time you enter flight form?

I thought itemrack would eventually add it since they have an option for travel form, but it wasn't there last time I checked.

Outfitter will work with it correctly. Sorry, I don't have a link handy on this PC, but it should be easy enough to find on curse-gaming or WoWInterface.

Vykromond · 01/24/08, 1:27 PM

Yes, the mangle bug is back. I have an 863 tick here: Vykromod - WWS

Brutal Impact is actually quite nice, even in PVE. I wouldn't really want to ditch it just for Feral Aggression. According to current mob theories of attack power (as mentioned in a previous post), putting points above 3 is pointless, and 3 just gives you a debuff very marginally better than Shout and one that you won't always be putting up unless you're willing to shift into Bear while DPSing. The Ferocious Bite part of it doesn't exactly inspire either, it might raise the energy at which it's worthwhile to Ferocious Bite by a few points. I may look at the math for it at some point today, time permitting.