Feral Druid Megathread - Page 70

Deathwing · 02/07/08, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by falkon2

By the way, something a lot of people don't realize the significance of (feral, warrior, and otherwise) is that the better the gear level, the worse crushing blows are for druids. And yeah, it's been mentioned a few times in passing earlier in the thread.

Consider, at 0 avoidance, druids will take less damage 85% of the time, and noticably more damage 15% of the time on crushings. At reasonable gear levels (say, 50% miss/dodge on a feral vs 50% miss/parry/dodge on a warrior) of all blows that land, druids take less damage 70% of the time and noticably more damage 30% of a time.

Now lets scale that all the way up to 85% avoidance (More or less theoretical at this point, I know). Every single blow that lands will be a crushing, hence you'll always be taking more damage than a warrior, despite having higher armor. This isn't even touching yet on how druids hit the armor cap right after T4 level whereas warriors can get up to ~22k armor raid buffed, up from ~17k across the three major tiers ingame at the moment.

My point is, the difference between a boss that can and cannot crush is a very significant factor, at high gear levels, in which tank takes less damage overall. It's not just as simple as taking a little more spike damage 15% of the time.

I think some of your assumptions are off. Druids don't hit armor cap with T4, unless there's a pally in your group and you're chugging ironskins. If a druid's mitigation is 75% and a warrior's is 62.5%, the druid's crushing blows will be equal to the warrior's regular hits. Now, I don't know the relative mitigations across the tiers, but based on those numbers, I think people are WAY over emphasizing crushing blows on a druid.

I understand your analysis of avoidance, but I'm sure other classes have their own problems too. Like I've seen some T6 warriors that have enough block/parry/dodge/miss to start eating into crushing blows by itself. Oh no, their shield block ability is becoming useless! I know, it's nowhere near the same magnitude, but even if this avoidance gap continues and in the end druids take 10% more damage across the board because all hits are crushes, it's not the worst thing. We offer a lot more to the raid, and very few guilds bring ferals to JUST be an MT.

• Falk · 02/07/08, 2:27 PM

I'm counting healer procs, of which druids don't get full benefit of, and the post was in reference to tanking Gorefiend, specifically as to how it gets worse and worse comparitively as both druids and warriors increase their avoidance, as opposed to say, Azgalor or Archimonde (fears and lack of cooldowns notwitstanding)

Originally Posted by Ronfar

On Naj'entus, my average hit was 3027, with a max hit of 6005. I avoided 51.2% of attacks. I took an average 965 DPS during the fight. Our regular Prot War MT's average hit was 3236, with a max hit of 7687. He took an average of 1031 DPS during the fight. Note that the Naj'entus calculations include tidal shield damage in overall incoming DPS, but not max hit.

On Gorefiend, my average hit was 6509, with a max of 9870. I took an average of 1442 incoming DPS. Our regular Prot War MT's average hit was 6979, with a max hit of 12422. His average incoming DPS was 1477.

I don't mean to be presumptious, but is your warrior getting crushed?

Ronfar · 02/07/08, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by falkon2

I'm counting healer procs, of which druids don't get full benefit of, and the post was in reference to tanking Gorefiend, specifically as to how it gets worse and worse comparitively as both druids and warriors increase their avoidance, as opposed to say, Azgalor or Archimonde (fears and lack of cooldowns notwitstanding)

I don't mean to be presumptious, but is your warrior getting crushed?

The Teron max hit to the Warrior was obviously a crush (and the only one he took the whole fight) - that said, Teron hits fast enough that with parry haste a warrior will get crushed occasionally with perfect shield block usage. I suppose then it is fair to say that on fights where warriors are crushable due to mob attack speed/parries they will take far worse spikes then Ferals, but take them less often. Hard to say which of these is worse if the total incoming DPS to the tank is comparable (which in my cases, it was).

dukes · 02/07/08, 3:03 PM

I would've thought it hard to avoid getting crushed on Teron/Najentus, because of the turn-parry thing that happens when they target people behind them.

On top of that, pure incoming DPS isn't really what should be looked at. Spike damage is the main thing, and that doesn't mean the biggest hit. Sure, warriors can be crushed, but if they get crushed more than once in a row then there's something significantly wrong. A druid can do nothing to avoid getting crushed 2 or 3 times in a row, which is a hell of a lot more spike damage than a warrior should take, even assuming you take 25% less damage than they are on a crushing because of armour differences. Spike damage is not judged by looking at the worst hit, it's looking at the worst case scenario for a particular string of hits. This is also not taking into account last stand/shield wall, which a warrior can fall back on most of the time in cases of emergency, and have more than once ended up with getting our raid a kill when it looked like it was all over, and numerous times provided a buffer that's saved the MT during a silence or similar raid wide fuckup.

I do agree that ferals are no-where near useless though, and in a tight spot can amply act as the MT, especially on farm content.

vtohr · 02/07/08, 3:25 PM

This is the order in which I DPS. How wrong am I?

Mangle

Shred (Till I have 4 or 5 combo points)

Rip (before Mangle wears off)

Wait for at least 80 Energy

Then repeat...

It seems to me you guys that seem to know what your doing are doing this.

Mangle

Shred (Till 5 Combo points only(not 4))

Rip (before mangle runs out)

Mangle ASAP (so your rip doesn't tick once without a mangle up)

(then go back to Shred)

I have been studying all the WWS reports all the good druid dpsers (without mangle bots) seem to be using these attacks.

34% Melee
40% Shred
18% Rip
8% Mangle

Any druid with mangle up more than 15% is just a bad dps'er from what I have seen.

How would you keep mangle up for all your rip ticks while mangling only 8% if your the only feral druid?

(I only really get to DPS on lurker somewhat I'm sure I would be at 850 DPS, I'm around 750 DPS while being and add tank/dps)
2,850 AP, 34.5% crit, 67 hit rating, 5 Expertise - unbuffed

3,400 AP, 38.5% crit, 67 hit rating, 5 expertise - buffed

Aranan · 02/07/08, 3:45 PM

You don't rip before mangle wears off after you build up sufficient combo points. If you aren't shredding or bleeding the mob, you don't need mangle up (unless you really want to buff Rupture/Deep Wounds :P). Shred to your desired combo points (4 or 5), sit tight for a few seconds while your energy builds up until you have enough (~70) to rip/mangle in succession. This way you apply the rip and get the mangle debuff up before the first bleed tick.

david0925 · 02/07/08, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by vtohr

This is the order in which I DPS. How wrong am I?

Mangle

Shred (Till I have 4 or 5 combo points)

Rip (before Mangle wears off)

Wait for at least 80 Energy

Then repeat...

It seems to me you guys that seem to know what your doing are doing this.

Mangle

Shred (Till 5 Combo points only(not 4))

Rip (before mangle runs out)

Mangle ASAP (so your rip doesn't tick once without a mangle up)

(then go back to Shred)

I have been studying all the WWS reports all the good druid dpsers (without mangle bots) seem to be using these attacks.

34% Melee
40% Shred
18% Rip
8% Mangle

Any druid with mangle up more than 15% is just a bad dps'er from what I have seen.

How would you keep mangle up for all your rip ticks while mangling only 8% if your the only feral druid?

(I only really get to DPS on lurker somewhat I'm sure I would be at 850 DPS, I'm around 750 DPS while being and add tank/dps)
2,850 AP, 34.5% crit, 67 hit rating, 5 Expertise - unbuffed

3,400 AP, 38.5% crit, 67 hit rating, 5 expertise - buffed

If you rip before first mangle wears off, and then wait for 80 energy before you reapply mangle, chances are some of your rip ticks are not going to benefit from Mangle if you rip at lower energy (takes 8 seconds to go from 0 to 80 energy, if you had >8 seconds on mangle before you rip, you must have been very lucky on crits)

• Astrylian · 02/07/08, 4:00 PM

Unless you want to screw around with double-rips (which at this point is generally more trouble than it's worth, and it's worth very little), the ideal dps cycle is:

1) Mangle
2) Shred to 4 OR 5 cp.
3) Wait for 70 energy. (If you reach >80 energy and still have 2+sec left on Mangle, shred again, but that's not going to happen often unless you get lots of OoC/Bloodlust procs)
4) Rip
5) Repeat (immediately Mangle after the Rip)

EDIT: In other words, you're doing it correctly already, except swap the 'wait for energy' and 'rip' steps to ensure that all rip ticks are mangled.

• Kanoa · 02/07/08, 4:12 PM

This is a bit off topic and maybe in the wrong place, and if so, I apologize ahead of time:

I just got this account form my brother and I am a Feral Tank and recently picked up the Clefthoof Set:

Legs
Boots
Chest

Based on my current stats would someone be so kind as to recommend which Gems I should use for the various slots?
The World of Warcraft Armory

I REALLY appreciate any help I can get.

Orkko · 02/07/08, 4:32 PM

I'm just curious if anybody has been following the thread on the European Druid WOW forums, about the statistical testing they are doing comparing your crit rate to the crit rate your character sheet reports.

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> [Bug?/Theorycrafting] Feral crit chance

If you read the complete thread (9 pages), you'll see that they are building a strong statistical case that we do not get the +5% crit bonus from LotP..

I'm just wondering if anyone here has any comments or suggestions on this??
They seem to be going after this in a rigourous, mathematical manner (ie, just like EJ), so I'm curious if anyone here has noticed this or not..

vtohr · 02/07/08, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by Kanoa

This is a bit off topic and maybe in the wrong place, and if so, I apologize ahead of time:

I just got this account form my brother and I am a Feral Tank and recently picked up the Clefthoof Set:

Legs
Boots
Chest

Based on my current stats would someone be so kind as to recommend which Gems I should use for the various slots?
The World of Warcraft Armory

I REALLY appreciate any help I can get.

Put in all +12 Stam gems (Star of Elune).
if thats too exspensive
Put in all +9 Stam gems....

I wouldn't suggest +8 Agility Gems for those because they are to exspensive, and your never going to dps in your cleft set...

• Astrylian · 02/07/08, 4:36 PM

Kanoa,
Rawr can answer your gearing questions. The Druid Wiki � Rawr

wuffles · 02/07/08, 4:38 PM

@Kanoa
also any further information you're seeking for that gear level might be better answered in this thread:

Feral Druid Preraid Tank Gear Guide

• Astrylian · 02/07/08, 6:33 PM

I'm working on some data collection at the moment, hope to post this weekend.

I'll be using two different sets of gear.
"NoMiss" = 142 hit rating, 94 expertise rating, 42.51% crit on character sheet with LotP
"FullMiss" = 0 hit rating, 0 expertise rating, don't have the crit rating in front of me, but should be roughly similar.

I'll be doing 4 tests, of hopefully a few thousand hits each:

1) Blasted Lands Servant - NoMiss gear with LotP
2) Blasted Lands Servant - NoMiss gear without LotP

3) ZG Snake Boss - FullMiss gear
4) ZG Snake Boss - NoMiss gear
Possibly: 5) ZG Snake Boss - NoMiss gear, with as different of an amount of crit as possible, while remaining hit/exp capped.

1/2 will be to test whether LotP is working. Measured Crit% should be higher than character sheet, cause it's a low level mob, but the difference between 1 and 2 should be 5% if LotP is working correctly.

3/4/5 will be to test crit% vs bosses, to see if it's 2 roll, etc.

Oaken · 02/07/08, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ronfar

Of course, this is not nearly enough data to say anything definitive. I'd certainly not be afraid to use a Feral tank to MT a fight like Gorefiend however, and would certainly recommend using a Feral MT for Archimonde if you have the Fear Wards available.

We've used feral tanks on many of the MH and BT fights, some through design and some through happenstance. And it isn't just for farmed content. We learned Teron with me as feral tank after our MT prot warrior's connection dropped an hour into attempts. We always tank Mother with a feral because she does not crushing blow. We learned Council with me on Gathios because we only had one prot warrior in the raid that night and used him on the priest as an additional spell interrupt. We even typically use one on Kaz'rogal - we had one night where for some reason the prot warrior was just taking huge damage spikes for no apparent reason so we switched to a feral, downed him, and never looked back. There is something to be said for what our healers claim is more steady damage input. However, I don't think it stacks up in the long term against the extra "oh shit" buttons, shield reflect and other goodies that Warriors have. Which is fine with me - I like having the freedom of tanking on some fights and dpsing on others.

Celestara · 02/07/08, 8:44 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

65 agility for 10 seconds. Assuming a 50% proc rate, it would have an uptime of approximately 40% (assuming one mangle per 12.5 seconds). 65*0.4 = 26 agility, or ~30 AP + 1.1% crit raid buffed, as a 'virtual' static value. I'm pretty sure that blows all other idol's out of the water in DPS terms. If the proc rate is the 85% wowhead reckons, then it's much much better than that.

Has anyone figured out the formula for the Idol of Terror with it's proc rate. I constantly find the time active at about 66% not 40 like the previous poster. which gives the Idol a value of 43 AGI. And that's with a 50% Proc Rate. I haven't bothered to calculate the Proc Rate yet.

Edit: Quoted the wrong poster.

◊ Farstrider · 02/08/08, 5:13 AM

It's an 85% proc rate. Multiply that by your hit rate against a 73 boss to find your own personal uptime.

• Falk · 02/08/08, 5:28 AM

Originally Posted by Oaken

We even typically use one on Kaz'rogal - we had one night where for some reason the prot warrior was just taking huge damage spikes for no apparent reason so we switched to a feral, downed him, and never looked back.

Just so it's clear, the spike was likely from Kaz'rogal's Saber Lash-type ability - Malevolent Cleave - Spells - World of Warcraft - while mild in comparison, it can be somewhat annoying if it isn't split among tanks, and coincides with a couple of parries.

Useful information to know regardless who's tanking him.

Voo · 02/08/08, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Unless you want to screw around with double-rips (which at this point is generally more trouble than it's worth, and it's worth very little), the ideal dps cycle is:

1) Mangle
2) Shred to 4 OR 5 cp.
3) Wait for 70 energy. (If you reach >80 energy and still have 2+sec left on Mangle, shred again, but that's not going to happen often unless you get lots of OoC/Bloodlust procs)
4) Rip
5) Repeat (immediately Mangle after the Rip)

EDIT: In other words, you're doing it correctly already, except swap the 'wait for energy' and 'rip' steps to ensure that all rip ticks are mangled.

I've also did this for a very long time, but it's not that hard to keep Rip up all the time by using rip with 30E and then powershifting --> mangle before it ticks the first time.

Kukulkan · 02/08/08, 11:59 AM

I have a question maybe some of you exprience druids can help me,

Which of this two groups is better for a feral,

BM hunter
BM hunter
BM hunter
Resto Shamman
Feral Druid

vrs

Warrior
Rogue
Rogue
Enh Shammy
Feral druid

Im just wondering if the difference between buffs between BS+UL will outperform the 3xFI+GoA ?

Allev · 02/08/08, 2:29 PM

Please use any of the DPS simulators in the first-post to optimize your personal DPS. You might have to do some of your own math for FI on Toskk's.

Please see the melee group DPS thread in this forum for advice on optimizing raid DPS.

Edit: I think you'll find that the decision that is best for raid DPS will benefit you personally more in the long run, regardless of how much DPS you do personally.

• Astrylian · 02/08/08, 3:48 PM

FYI: I did test #1 (above) yesterday, and am part-way through test #2 today... Not done yet, but so far it looks like LotP is working. Crit % is currently 4.6% off from test #1, which is within the expected margin of error of only having done 800 hits so far. (Yesterday's test, #1, was for 6700 hits, almost 2 hrs of straight autoattacking)

EDIT: This isn't to say that we aren't seeing unexpected crit reduction on bosses, just that it does look like LotP isn't to blame. Perhaps Sharpened Claws? I'd think that if bosses just had a large chunk of innate crit reduction, that other classes would be equally affected, which it doesn't sound like is the case.

EDIT 3: Up to 5000 hits, still looks like LotP works. At 4.9% off from test #1 now. Aiming for the same number of hits as in test #1, 6700.