galzohar

I remember reading somehwere that the level taken into account for the downrank penalty formula was 1 level below the level in which the next rank is learned. So if you learn rank 5 at 50 and rank 6 at 60, rank 5 counts as a level 59 spell for that formula.
I think this is worth verifying.

 

• stabbymcgee

Correct, the level of the spell is the highest level before a new rank is learned. Using yours numbers, the R5 is level 59 since you learn R6 at 60.

[16:26:07] <falk|hiding> there needs to be a way to buy WSG rep though
[16:26:21] <falk|hiding> atm it's like stabbing my penis with a rusty knife

 

Zurm

Added trinkets and updating the downranking penalty right now.

 

jusion

"# Crystalforge Raiment: The bonuses on this set have been adjusted."

Uh oh, anyone know what they did?

- Blessing of Light: Lower ranks of Flash of Light and Holy Light are now properly penalized when used with this Blessing.

And ouch even more.

 

Zurm

Update:

As of today (Oct 11, 2007) the PTR patch notes reflect two major changes:

1) Blessing of Light will not give the full effect to down-ranked spells
2) T5 Bonuses have been "adjusted"

We are going to need the first few paladins who can on the PTR to test out the extent of these nerfs, and we should get rigorous testing in over the next few days. This may be the end of the HL/Haste build

 

Egel

You got the penalty for down-ranking wrong. The correct penalty is ("level where you learn the spell" + 11) / character level. So FoL 6 does have a penalty at level 70 albeit small. Someone in some paladin thread here tested it and posted the formula.

 

• stabbymcgee

I'm more or less finished with the gear sheet, I just need to know whether to keep Off-hands in, or just shields. I'll try to keep the sheet updated as new items come in from the PTR.

[16:26:07] <falk|hiding> there needs to be a way to buy WSG rep though
[16:26:21] <falk|hiding> atm it's like stabbing my penis with a rusty knife

 

Zurm

Keep regular offhands in... you never know...

 

jusion

2p t5: 0 mana to your group when using a judgement
4p t5: chance on critical flash of light or holy light to reduce the cast time of following holy lights by -0.50 for 10 seconds. this effect can only trigger once per minute

Incase you guys didn't see. Ouch t5 users .

 

Covertghost

Spell Hasteadin build basically destroyed with change to 4pc tier5 in 2.3.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73...ystalforge.jpg

 

galzohar

Unless you were using 4pc T6... But even then the downrank nerf probably means you just want to use FoL when you need small heals doesn't it?

Also I forgot to mention that spiritual attuenment actually doesn't change anything regarding the argument of giving/not giving the pally a shadow priest. If the paladin takes any damage, he will need to be healed in 1 way or another and therefore will get mana back from spiritual attunement regardless of having a shadow priest or not. Heck, without a shadow priest you'll get more mana if you get overhealed by any amount, and let's face it, nobody heals *exactly* to 100% so you actually get more mana from spiritual attunement if you don't get a shadow priest. This is not saying if you should/shouldn't get a shadow priest, just saying spiritual attunement doesn't really help your argument to get one. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

 

Naive

I don't want to get us offtopic, but this is the most ridiculous change I've ever seen. Understandably, Blizzard is probably upset that BT clearing guild paladins are still wearing T5, but why make this move? It's a personal choice based around gear and playing style. There's no reason to make this change. /sigh This basically makes all paladins move to FoL spammers with the occasional HoL when the tank gets low.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....49064ZMMQI.png

 

HolyHotty

Just wanted to help back up this claim in the new thread since I posted some theorycrafting in the other one (nice thread by the way). Here's a wws that shows off how good the BT trinket can be compared to a 70 healing trinket effective healing wise: http://wowwebstats.com/vbuvjnt51r3z3?s=13020-13491&a=9 For this fight I was just prehealing with rank 11 holy light, which is the worst possible way to use this trinket to its full effectiveness, and I was pretty impressed with the results. After calculating potential crits and overheal for a 70 healing trinket, and the overheal for the talisman ticks that went off, I got 741 healing vs 3321. That means if I was wearing the scarab or prayerbook, I would have done 741 effective healing, while the talisman did 3321 effective healing. These results are kind of abnormal, 4.5 times as much effective healing, but I usually see over twice as much healing being done by the talisman.

Hope this helps some people make more informed decisions about their trinkets. Knowledge is power! :P

 

Zurm

Excellent work, HolyHotty. I'm not that surprised though, since the ashtongue trinket doesn't further contribute to overheal but rather puts a lasting heal that can hit after someone takes damage.

 

• stabbymcgee

Well, there goes my goals for the next month or so as far as gear goes Can someone test out the new BoL situation on the PTR? I'd like to see how that compares to current, and how much of a nerf it is.

[16:26:07] <falk|hiding> there needs to be a way to buy WSG rep though
[16:26:21] <falk|hiding> atm it's like stabbing my penis with a rusty knife

 

Rho

I feel like this nerf to T5 is pretty much unnecessary. Other classes had fabulous set bonuses from T5 (Mage 2 piece anyone?).

It's also annoying because we've been sharding what are now clear upgrades because of T5 bonus. I'm hoping that this change is reversed.

 

• goss

I'm just incredibly disappointed by the change to Tier 5. Not because I considered it my endgame set (I planned to upgrade to 4pc T6 once my guild has killed Illidan), but because its absence absolutely destroys playstyle variety in holy paladins, which is really lacking from talents and abilities in the first place.

The idea that by downranking crystalforged/hasted Holy Light, a paladin would have more than 2 useful heals (and sometimes upwards of 5) is a good thing, it encouraged some thought and a mild (without overselling this...) amount of subtlety to healing on a paladin. Tier 6 is a better all around set, and for that I would upgrade to it, but it doesn't encourage anywhere near the same variety. Crystalforge isn't absolute endgame, it's situationally useful after T6 is available, so I really can't understand the need for a nerf of this kind. As was suggested early in the 2.3 notes thread, swap the proc to haste rating so there is no chance of this set sticking around at 80 and call it a day. The -.25s Holy Light is a great set bonus, and gives versatility to a healing class that is otherwise severely hurting for choices.

 

Zurm

While this isn't killing ALL haste builds, it's certainly a big hit. Now you'll have to go 2pc T6 and slap as much haste gear in the other slots as possible.

 

Yilona

I haven't run the numbers yet, but it's my guess that you'll be losing a ton of +healing/crit/mp5 by using haste gear over other items. I'll have to play with spreadsheets later and take a look at it in more detail, but my gut feeling is that it's no longer a viable way to do things.

It's incredibly unfortunate.

 

Zurm

Let me know your results after you run the numbers, I may have to rewrite like half of the main post because of this -_-

 

Aramul

Additionally, BoL will be affected by the downranking penalty. With the Crystalforge nerf, this is a death sentence to haste builds.

So not only is it harder to get quick HL casts, low ranks are no longer as efficient. I'm glad we haven't been sharding Hyjal T5 alternatives.

 

Kathilyn

I was admittedly hopeful when patch note first came out that they'd only be doing something with the 2-piece bonus.

I personally love downranking, and yes, thinking (albeit quickly!) about what I'm going to cast, rather than just being a generic flash bot. Along with the 4-piece bonus, I've completely built myself around spell crit. I switched to alchemy so I could get the Alchemist's Stone and chain-chug mana pots.

With these changes, I really don't seen any options but to become a flash bot.

What do you think HL/spell-crit devotees' next move should be? Should we shoot for +heal/+mp5 over +spell crit gems? I'd definitely like to start planning now.

 

Zurm

I would imagine the only change would be the replacing of haste with healing and spell crit. With a HL build you're generally dropping big heals so the mana returned from Illumination on a crit would probably be superior to a static mp5 (plus, as HL you generally should have a shadow priest anyway unless you cancel most of your heals).

All and all, i think the difference between FoL and HL now is that for FoL you want healing/mp5 and HL you want healing/crit, as opposed to haste/crit.

 

galzohar

If you're not using FoL regardless of the change I don't see why you suddenly wouldn't want haste. Granted you won't have 1.5s cast HL but dropping them down from 2 to 1.75 isn't much less useful than dropping it down from 1.75 to 1.5. The only reason I could see less use of haste gear is due to using FoL instead of downranked HL for small heals and therefore the haste is almost completely wasted when you're casting those FoLs.

 

ArkamisImm

Yikes. T5 healing took a nerf. Anyone have any info whether changes were made to T5 ret/prot?