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ATTENTION!

The Theorycrafting Think Tank version of this article is now live! Access it here:

Rogue: PvE DPS

Please use the following thread to discuss any topics covered by the new article or by Roguecraft 101:

[Rogue] PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion

Responses to the new article are to be used only for corrections to its content or concrete suggestions for improvement.

1. Introduction


This post is currently up-to-date for patch 2.4.0.

This post is intended as a consolidated resource on rogue theorycraft with a heavy slant towards practical application in raiding. The overwhelming majority of the information contained herein relates to PvE, although I'm sure some of it may be useful in PvP. There is a rogue PvP thread located here: [Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice.

Please feel free to make suggestions for section changes/reorganization/content/whatever you want. Note that it's possible I've made errors in this post, or perhaps that the state of the rogue class changes over time. The remainder of this thread is available for the purpose of discussing such things. Please use it, that other rogue megathreads might be reduced in clutter somewhat.

Contents

1. Introduction
2. Aldriana's 7 Commandments of Rogue DPS
3. Weapon Selection and Talent Builds
4. Regarding the Hit and Expertise Caps
5. Gear Selection
6. Gem Selection
7. Combo Point Cycles
8. Buffs and Enchants
9. Mechanics
10. Miscellaneous Links

Acknowledgements

The following individuals have contributed to the creation of this resource. Thanks for your help!


Aldriana
Aquasheep
Hanos
Nite_Moogle
Olgas
Oscarvil
Shaker
sp00n
Tryss
Vitaminc

Abbreviations

In order to reduce any confusion, here is a list of abbreviations commonly used either in this post or in general by rogues:

CP - combo point
IP - Instant Poison
DP - Deadly Poison
DPE - damage per energy
SnD - Slice and Dice
T4 2pc - 2-piece tier 4 (Netherblade) set bonus
1s/5r - represents the combo point cycle of 1 CP, Slice and Dice, 5 CP, Rupture
Xs/5e - represents the general class of cycles where you gain some number of CP (X), Slice and Dice, 5 CP, Eviscerate

2. Aldriana's 7 Commandments of Rogue DPS

The first step to success as a raiding rogue is to adhere to the 7 commandments of rogue DPS. Following these guidelines is by far the most important step to improving your DPS, and if you do not follow them, then nothing in the rest of this post will help you.

1. Don't die.
2. Don't do anything that risks wiping the raid.
3. Maximize your time on target.
4. Don't let your energy cap out.
5. Don't let SnD drop.
6. Use one of the spreadsheets to figure out your best cycle; this will usually be the highest rupture uptime cycle that doesn't violate rule 4 or 5.
7. Use your cooldowns.

3. Weapon Selection and Talent Builds

On main hand theory: in general, any considerations about weapon stats are subordinate to the fact of limited itemization. The selection of weapons provided supports a strategy of picking the highest DPS weapon of "slow" speed (1.7-1.9 for daggers, 2.6-2.8 for fists/maces/swords). Note: there are exceptions (e.g. [Talon of Azshara] > [Merciless Gladiator's Slicer]).

On offhand theory: for rogues with Combat Potency, a fast offhand is extremely important to increase the frequency of Combat Potency procs. For these builds, you can compare offhands by equating each 0.1 increment of speed to roughly 10 extra weapon DPS in favor of the faster weapon. For example, [Latro's Shifting Sword] is effectively 91.8 DPS when compared against [Fireguard]. Note that the stats on a weapon are still very important; for example, [Tracker's Blade] is superior to [Searing Sunblade] due to its stat allocation.

For non-Combat Potency rogues, offhand weapon speed is less important, but can still impact DPS via poison procs and sword spec procs. For any rogue with sword spec, each 0.1 increment of speed can be equated to roughly 5 extra weapon DPS in favor of the faster weapon. For rogues without sword spec, you can convert each 0.1 increment to 2 extra weapon DPS for the faster weapon. For combat Mutilate builds, offhand speed is nearly immaterial. This article points out that fast offhands suffer a very slight decrease in Mutilate damage relative to slow ones, most likely offsetting the increase in poison DPS.

On spec choice: in general, the maximum possible DPS can be achieved using swords. The current top personal DPS specs are combat swords and combat fist+sword. Combat mace+sword, combat fists, and combat daggers lag about 1-2% behind these builds in total DPS, with combat maces being about 3% back. Given the scarcity of weapons at most gear levels, it safe to "let your weapons choose your spec" -- that is, decide your spec based on whatever drops for you.

Hemo-based specs such as Hemo+swords (also called trispec Hemo) and Hemo+Deadliness have gained some popularity in recent months due to the damage debuff caused by the ability. Though most Hemo builds lag at least 5-6% behind combat builds in personal DPS, the raid DPS provided by the debuff often makes up a significant part of the deficit. Note that by or during tier 6 content, your personal DPS loss from being specced Hemo likely eclipses the raid DPS benefit of the debuff. With Hemo, you may again let your weapons choose your spec: sword-users should spec Hemo+swords, while those with other weapons should choose Hemo+Deadliness. Hemo specs involving Shadowstep, Cheat Death, Seal Fate, or Combat Potency are provably inferior to the two aforementioned specs, and should be avoided.

Note that we do not currently have a mathematical model for Mutilate DPS as accurate as those for other specs. Empirical evidence suggests that Mutilate DPS is inferior to combat swords, but still reasonably competitive, possibly on par with Hemo-based specs.

On talents: for PvE builds, the two most important talents in any tree are Relentless Strikes and Dual Wield Specialization (which therefore mandates Precision). For any combat build, mandatory talents are Improved Slice and Dice, Blade Flurry, Weapon Expertise, Aggression, Adrenaline Rush, Combat Potency, and Surprise Attacks, as well as an appropriate weapon specialization. Combat dagger specs additionally require Puncturing Wounds and Opportunity, while Sinister Strike builds require Improved Sinister Strike.

Hemo builds have a large number of optional talents, with mandatory talents being Serrated Blades and Hemorrhage. For Hemo+sword builds, note that one point of Sword Specialization and one point of Weapon Expertise are each superior to one point of Dirty Deeds for sustained DPS. For Hemo+Deadliness builds, Blade Flurry is superior to the fifth point in Deadliness.

Combat Mutilate builds also have a number of optional talents, with Puncturing Wounds, Cold Blood, Seal Fate, Vigor, Find Weakness, and Mutilate being required. Nearly all PvE-focused builds should carry the same initial point spread in Assassination: Malice, Ruthlessness, Murder, and Relentless Strikes. If there are still available points, spend them in Lethality, then Vile Poisons.

Sample builds:

Here are sample builds for each typical rogue raid spec. Keep in mind when looking at these which talents are required and which ones are up to taste.

Combat swords (or any Sinister Strike-based weapon spec) - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combat fist+sword (or any dual weapon spec) - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combat daggers - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Hemo+swords - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Hemo+Deadliness - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combat Mutilate - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (HELP! Need a new Mutilate template for 2.4)

4. Regarding the Hit and Expertise Caps

In the context of stats, the term "cap" refers to the point at which equipping more of a particular stat will have no additional value. For hit rating and expertise rating in particular, the cap usually discussed is for the effect of these stats on raid bosses. For example, once you reach or surpass the hit cap, you will never miss an attack against a raid boss unless you are under the effect of some debuff that reduces your hit chance (for example, Attumen the Huntsman's curse). There is no "minimum" chance to miss melee attacks, nor to be dodged or parried.

Your base chance to miss a raid boss while dual wielding is 28% with auto-attack on both hands. Your base chance to miss a special attack is 9%. For each 15.77 hit rating you equip, you reduce your chance to miss by 1%. Thus we can calculate hit caps for auto-attack and special attacks:

Auto-attack, 0/5 Precision: 442
Auto-attack, 5/5 Precision: 363
Special, 0/5 Precision: 142
Special, 5/5 Precision: 64

Your base chance to be dodged by a raid boss with any attack is thought to be 6.5%. For each 3.94 expertise rating you equip, you gain 1 expertise, reducing your chance to be dodged by 0.25% (thus it takes exactly 15.77 expertise rating to reduce your chance to be dodged by 1%). Thus, we can calculate expertise caps for various combinations of talents and racial abilities:

0/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 103
1/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 83
2/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 64
0/2 Weapon Expertise, Human (wielding swords or maces): 83
1/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 64
2/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 44

The hit and expertise caps are NOT magic numbers that every rogue [or any rogue] must reach. Whether you're in T4 or T6, there are NO MAGIC NUMBERS for how much hit or expertise rating you "should" have. There is no special benefit to being capped with either stat, nor is there any special benefit to reaching an arbitrary threshold. The purpose of listing the caps here is so that you do not accidentally overshoot either cap by equipping too much hit rating or expertise rating. Always remember that any hit rating or expertise rating beyond the cap will have zero positive effect on your DPS.

5. Gear Selection

In this section, rather than listing comparisons between every piece of gear a rogue could conceivably obtain, I will describe a general-purpose system for comparing pieces of gear against one another. To compare two pieces, you can give each stat a "weight" proportional to its DPS contribution relative to other stats. Let's call this weight Equivalence Points (EP). We'll define 1 AP = 1 EP; that is, 1 attack power is worth exactly 1 Equivalence Point. Now we can use a spreadsheet to determine how much DPS a single point of any stat provides relative to a single point of attack power, and convert those directly into EP values.

To utilize the EP weights, simply take a piece of gear and multiply each stat bonus on that piece by the EP weight for that stat. In case of gem sockets, figure out how you would gem the piece in actual use (instructions for gemming are given in the following section), and multiply the stats provided by each gem by their respective EP weights. Any stat provided that does not have direct DPS value (e.g. stamina, dodge rating, resilience) can be valued at 0 EP. Examples of using the EP weights are provided below.

Note that all EP weights assume the following set of buffs: Leader of the Pack, 5/5 Mark of the Wild, Faerie Fire, Mangle, 5/5 Hunter's Mark, 0/5 Blessing of Might, Blessing of Kings, 2/2 Power Word: Fortitude, Bloodlust, 2/2 Strength of Earth Totem, 2/2 Windfury Totem, Unleashed Rage, Curse of Recklessness, Sunder Armor, 5/5 Battle Shout, Flask of Relentless Assault, Spicy Hot Talbuk. If you raid with more or fewer buffs, consult a spreadsheet to obtain more accurate EP weights.

Tier 4: the following is a table of EP values for sword (16/41+4), dagger (15/41/5), Hemo+sword (11/28/22), and Hemo+Deadliness (11/21/29) builds, assuming a projected tier 4 level of gear (heroics, Karazhan, Gruul, Magtheridon, pre-2.3 badge rewards).

Tier 5: the following is a table of EP values for the same builds, assuming a projected tier 5 level of gear (Zul'Aman through first two timed chests, Serpentshrine Cavern, Tempest Keep, 2.3 badge rewards):

Tier 6: the following is a table of EP values for the same builds, assuming a projected tier 6 level of gear (Zul'Aman third timed chest, Hyjal Summit, Black Temple).

Example comparison: here's an example of using the T5 EP weights for a combat swords build to compare [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] to [Shoulderpads of Dancing Blades]:

Shoulderpads of the Stranger
303 Armor ---> 0 EP
+33 Agility ---> 33 * 2.15 = 70.95 EP
+28 Stamina ---> 0 EP
[ ] Red: +4 Agi / +4 Hit ---> 4 * 2.15 + 4 * 2.32 = 17.88 EP
Socket Bonus: +2 Agility ---> 2 * 2.15 = 4.30 EP
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 16. ---> 16 * 1.67 = 26.72 EP
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 10. ---> 10 * 2.74 = 27.40 EP
Equip: Increases attack power by 60. ---> 60 EP
Total: 70.95 + 17.88 + 4.30 + 26.72 + 27.40 + 60 = 207.25 EP

Shoulderpads of Dancing Blades
303 Armor ---> 0 EP
+33 Agility ---> 33 * 2.15 = 70.95 EP
+39 Stamina ---> 0 EP
Equip: Improves hit rating by 16. ---> 16 * 2.32 = 37.12 EP
Equip: Increases attack power by 68. ---> 68 EP
Total: 70.95 + 37.12 + 68 = 176.07 EP

These two items make a good comparison for two reasons. First, with a difference as large as 30 EP, you can reasonably confident that the [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] are better for just about any combat sword rogue than the [Shoulderpads of Dancing Blades]. However, they also illustrate one potential flaw -- expertise rating comes in increments of 1, but expertise itself only increases in increments of 0.25% (~3.94 expertise rating). For example, if you have 0 expertise rating, [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] by themselves will only increase your expertise to 2, and [Grips of Deftness] by themselves will only increase your expertise to 3. However, equipping both items together will increase your expertise to 6. Keep this effect in mind when using EP weights for expertise.

On stat weight scaling: each stat's EP value will tend to scale with your gear, talents, and raid buffs. Sinister Calling will increase the EP value of agility by about 15%, while Blessing of Kings will increase the EP values of agility and strength by 10%. Deadliness will increase the DPS contribution of strength, agility, and attack power, which will have the effect of reducing the EP values of any other stats. On-hit procs such as Windfury, Mongoose, Combat Potency, and [Dragonspine Trophy] will all increase the values of hit and expertise ratings, while [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] and Mace Specialization will both increase the value of crit rating. All of the EP weights given above are examples based on a theoretical raid composition and gear/talent setup; for the most exact valuation of stats, you should always consult a spreadsheet.

On trinkets: [Dragonspine Trophy] is the best trinket in the game for combat rogues, currently. [Shard of Contempt] is a very close second, as long as you can make use of the expertise. Humans wielding swords or maces can only make use of the Shard if they have no other items with expertise rating. Other races (or humans with other weapon types) can make use of it providing they have at most one of the following items: [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths], [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade], [Slayer's Boots], or any other item with more than 20 expertise rating. The Blackened Naaru Sliver trinket has not yet been seen in-game, therefore we have no idea how it compares to these.

[Warp-Spring Coil] is the next best option, though it does not reach this level of relative power until T6 and Sunwell gear levels. [Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality] and [Madness of the Betrayer] are next, then [Berserker's Call] and [Tsunami Talisman]. [Bloodlust Brooch], [Darkmoon Card: Crusade], [Abacus of Violent Odds], [Hourglass of the Unraveller], and [Icon of Unyielding Courage] are all good pre-raiding options. [Romulo's Poison Vial] is decent if you have plenty of room under the hit cap. As with main hand weapons, because of scarcity it's often safe to choose trinkets on a policy of "whatever drops first."

6. Gem Selection

On meta gems: you want a headpiece with a meta gem socket. Use [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] in that socket. [Thundering Skyfire Diamond] is inferior due to a ~40 second cooldown, 6 second duration, and low proc rate, but it is the second-best option for the socket. [Swift Skyfire Diamond] is nowhere near as good as either of these, and should be avoided.

On combat gem selection: only gem for socket bonuses that provide offensive stats (hit/crit rating, agility, AP), and only if they are achievable using solely red and yellow gems. If you are socketing for a bonus, always use [Rigid Dawnstone] in yellow sockets and [Glinting Noble Topaz] in red sockets, unless you are nearing the hit cap, in which case use [Glinting Noble Topaz] in yellow sockets and [Delicate Living Ruby] in red sockets.

Pay attention to your meta gem socket requirement of 2 blue gems. Only use [Shifting Nightseye] to fulfill the requirement, and only as many as necessary. If you are not socketing for a bonus, always use [Rigid Dawnstone] or [Glinting Noble Topaz], switching to [Delicate Living Ruby] if you reach the hit cap.

On Hemo gem selection: for Hemo+sword builds, gem very much the same as you would for combat. For Hemo+Deadliness, prefer [Delicate Living Ruby] for red sockets (or for all sockets, if not gemming for a bonus) and [Glinting Noble Topaz] for yellow sockets. [Shifting Nightseye] should still be the gem of choice for satisfying the 2 blue gem requirement of RED or TSD. Only if you know for certain you will never be getting Blessing of Kings, [Bright Living Ruby] and [Balanced Nightseye] are appropriate gems for a Hemo+Deadliness build.

On Mutilate gem selection: Mutilate builds should prefer [Delicate Living Ruby] for red sockets (or for all sockets, if not gemming for a bonus) and [Glinting Noble Topaz] for yellow sockets. Use [Shifting Nightseye] to satisfy meta gem requirements.

On unique gems: several BoP gems are available from heroics, jewelcrafting, and PvP which may be used in place of any of the gems mentioned above. The following gems may be obtained and used in any socket where a rare ("blue" quality) gem of the same color would normally be placed. Note that the PvP and jewelcrafting gems listed below are also unique-equip, meaning you may only wear one in any given set of gear.

• [Bold Ornate Ruby] (red) - PvP honor reward
• [Crimson Sun] (red) - Jewelcrafting BoP
• [Stone of Blades] (yellow) - Jewelcrafting BoP
• [Brutal Tanzanite] (purple) - Heroic Botanica
• [Pulsing Amethyst] (purple) - Nightbane quest
• [Shifting Tanzanite] (purple) - Heroic Steamvault
• [Glinting Fire Opal] (orange) - Heroic Black Morass
• [Pristine Fire Opal] (orange) - Heroic Sethekk Halls

On epic gemming: follow the same gemming rules as above, substituting the epic versions ([Delicate Crimson Spinel], [Glinting Pyrestone], [Rigid Lionseye], [Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]) where appropriate. Note that [Crimson Spinel] are still in high demand from just about every caster class, therefore if you would like to use them, you should consider using your [Badge of Justice] stock. Note that epic gems are only available for purchase via badges once the Isle of Quel'danas has been fully opened on your realm.

On incorrect gemming: regardless of spec, the following gems are strictly inferior to available alternatives and should not be used by any rogue: [Bold Living Ruby], [Wicked Noble Topaz], [Smooth Dawnstone], [Jagged Talasite].

7. Combo Point Cycles

"Combo point cycle" refers to the algorithm used by a rogue to determine what finishers to use, and in what order, during sustained combat (e.g. against a raid boss). A combo point cycle revolves around keeping Slice and Dice active as close to 100% of the time as possible while also keeping Rupture active as much as possible. Eviscerate should only be used if the target is close to death, if the target is bleed-immune, or if you already have Slice and Dice and Rupture up with plenty of time left. See the Mechanics section for more about Eviscerate.

Combo point cycles are usually expressed in the format "1s/5r" or "3s/5s/5e" (for example). Each number-letter pair indicates a finisher to be used at a certain number of CP. An 's' represents Slice and Dice, an 'r' represents Rupture, and an 'e' represents Eviscerate. Thus, 1s/5r represents a cycle where you gain 1 CP, use Slice and Dice, gain 5 CP, use Rupture, and then repeat; and 3s/5s/5e represents a cycle where you gain 3 CP, use Slice and Dice, gain 5 CP, use Slice and Dice again, gain 5 CP, use Eviscerate, and then repeat. For maximum performance, do not deviate from the cycle unless you are forced to stop attacking the target.

On combat cycles: combat builds using swords, fists, maces, or any combination thereof will generally use a 4s/5r cycle, unless the rogue has T4 2pc, in which case he should use 1s/5r. If the target is immune to bleed effects, use 5s/5e (or 2s/5e, if you have T4 2pc). Combat dagger builds should use a 3s/5s/5r cycle, unless the rogue has T4 2pc, in which case he should use 1s/3r. If the target is immune to bleed effects, use 3s/5s/5e (or 1s/3e, if you have T4 2pc).

On Hemo cycles: Hemo builds should use a 5s/5r cycle, unless the rogue has T4 2pc, in which case he should use 2s/5r. Substitute Eviscerate in place of Rupture if the target is immune to bleed effects.

On Mutilate cycles: Mutilate doesn't use a fixed cycle because its CP generation can vary widely. Rather, a Mutilate build uses a general policy of "3+" or "4+", performing finishers after a certain minimum number of CP (either 3 or 4) have been accumulated. Finishers used are SnD, Rupture, and Eviscerate/Envenom, in order of priority (note: see the Mechanics section regarding Envenom). Be sure to balance finisher usage to get the most value out of Find Weakness procs.

On movement and on-the-fly cycles: in many fights, rogues will be required to run in and out of melee range with the boss, or will be prevented at times from entering melee range to continue their cycle. Depending on the length of time you'll be out of melee range, there are many ways to handle these situations. If the interruption will only be brief (less than 10 seconds between leaving melee range and reentering it), your energy bar should be able to absorb the delay and you can continue your cycle when you get back into melee range as if nothing had happened. Otherwise, you should either burn your CP immediately on a Rupture (or Eviscerate, in the case of a bleed-immune target) or save them for a Slice and Dice when you next enter melee. In some fights, it is impossible to predict how often you will be interrupted or for how long. In these situations, your best bet is to get Slice and Dice up immediately upon starting melee and keep it up at all costs, only Rupturing if you have extra combo points to burn.

8. Buffs and Enchants

On raid buffs: the standard raid group for a rogue is typically feral druid + DPS warrior + enhance shaman + rogue + rogue (or something similar). The biggest party-based DPS buffs for a combat build are Battle Shout (5/5 improved), Unleashed Rage, Grace of Air/Windfury (see further below), Leader of the Pack, in that order. If your raid is short on paladins, Salvation > Might > Kings. If your raid doesn't have an enhancement shaman, a resto shaman in the group dropping totems is the next best thing (Unleashed Rage is a big loss, but Windfury Totem and Grace of Air Totem provide nearly their full benefit even if the shaman doesn't have the talents for them).

On self-buffs: [Flask of Relentless Assault] is the best DPS option for your elixir slots; however, [Elixir of Major Agility] is very close behind. In general, choose the flask for progression and the elixir for farm content. Your best food option is [Spicy Hot Talbuk] if you're combat or Hemo+swords, [Warp Burger] otherwise. [Haste Potion] are extremely powerful if used on cooldown, but save your potion timer if you know you'll be taking a lot of damage. If you're a leatherworker, [Drums of Battle] > [Drums of War].

On poisons and Windfury: for PvE, always choose DP on the offhand. If you are in a group with a shaman and you're combat, you'll get more DPS from Windfury as opposed to Grace of Air + IP. However, the difference is not as dramatic as it is for, say, a DPS warrior. If your group contains a DPS warrior, Windfury Totem will usually be dropped. Otherwise, if less than half the group is rogues, Grace of Air Totem will probably be dropped and you should use IP on the MH. Always check with your shaman if you're unsure what will be dropped. For Mutilate, Grace of Air Totem might be preferable, but Windfury Totem is still quite powerful. Note that dual DP is a waste for all builds except Mutilate, and only if you use Envenom. For all builds, [Adamantite Sharpening Stone] are inferior unless the target is immune to poisons.

On weapon enchants: Mongoose is currently considered the only viable weapon enchant for rogues. 20 agility is inferior, even on the offhand. Executioner was once thought to out-scale Mongoose as a main hand enchant towards the end of T6 content, when the rogue obtained a decent amount of passive armor penetration. However, this observation was based on a bugged model. The circumstances under which Executioner does out-scale Mongoose are now thought to be so restrictive as to rule out use of the enchant for PvE purposes.

On other enchants: [Greater Inscription of Vengeance] (Aldor) is very slightly better than [Greater Inscription of the Blade] (Scryer). 15 agility to gloves is superior to 26 attack power. If you aren't using [Swift Skyfire Diamond] in your helmet, then a solid case can be made for getting Cat's Swiftness to boots instead of Dexterity (you lose 6 agility, but gain 8% run speed -- see this post by Aldriana for a more detailed look at boot enchants). If you are an enchanter, Stats should be your ring enchant of choice, unless you are daggers, in which case Striking will come out very slightly ahead. Always make sure you have [Glyph of Ferocity] on your helm, 12 agility on your cloak, 6 stats on your chest, 24 attack power on your bracers, and [Nethercobra Leg Armor] (or [Cobrahide Leg Armor] if you're poor) on your legs.

9. Mechanics

On haste: haste effects provide extra attacks per time unit equal to their magnitude; so Slice and Dice provides 30% extra attacks over its duration compared to without it. Percentage-based haste effects are multiplicative; however, rating-based haste effects (e.g. [Dragonspine Trophy]) are all added together into a total haste rating before being converted (at a rate of 15.77 rating to 1%) into a single percentage-based haste. Thus, separate percentage-based hastes increase one another's effects, while separate rating-based hastes do not do the same. As a result, coordinating rating-based hastes (e.g. trying to time a Haste Potion and Abacus of Violent Odds simultaneously with a Dragonspine Trophy proc and Dragonstrike proc) will not have any special effects. However, coordinating percentage-based hastes (e.g. hitting Blade Flurry together with Bloodlust) will increase your benefits.

On cooldown usage: because of the way different stats scale with one another, it is generally preferable to use DPS-increasing cooldowns simultaneously rather than one at a time. This post and this post demonstrate the increased effect possible by simultaneously triggering cooldowns, especially haste-based effects. In general, you should use cooldowns as they become available. However, in some cases of cooldowns with staggered timers (e.g. Blade Flurry and Troll Berserking), it may be best, when the longer cooldown becomes available, to delay it slightly until the shorter one also becomes available. See this post for more detail.

On Eviscerate: at nearly all reachable levels of gear, Rupture will be superior to Eviscerate on any target that isn't immune to bleeds. At 5 CP, Rupture deals 1000 damage plus 24% of your AP for 25 energy, or 40 damage plus 0.96% of your AP per energy. At 5 CP and with T5 2pc, Eviscerate deals 1245 damage plus 15% of your AP for 35 energy, or roughly 35.57 damage plus 0.43% of your AP per energy. Applying 3/3 Improved Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression (121% modifier), 40% crit and RED (142.4% modifier), and 30% armor reduction (assuming a typical debuffed raid boss), Eviscerate comes to 42.90 damage plus 0.52% of your AP per energy. Thus, Eviscerate holds an advantage of 2.90 base damage per energy, but Rupture gains an additional 0.44% of your AP. At this rate, it takes only 656 AP for Rupture to overcome Eviscerate's base advantage. Simply, in any situation where you can Rupture, you should Rupture.

On Shiv: Shiv cannot be dodged or parried, and like other offhand attacks, it can proc Combat Potency. Even so, its damage per energy will be inferior to Sinister Strike or Backstab almost regardless of stats, largely due to the offhand damage penalty and the lack of any static damage boost built into the ability. This post and this addendum contain some sample calculations of Shiv DPE. Shiv spam with DP offhand and Envenom is inferior to Rupture-based cycles in most raid/group situations (see this post).

On Envenom: Envenom damage is not mitigated by armor, and can be boosted by Stormstrike, Misery (shadow priest debuff), and Vile Poisons. However, in all but the most favorable circumstances (for example, extremely high crit, T5 2pc, RED, 5/5 Vile, Stormstrike and Misery both up), Envenom's DPE will be inferior to Rupture. The more apt comparison to make is Envenom versus Eviscerate. At 5 CP and untalented (talents can boost both abilities by roughly the same: Envenom by 20%, Eviscerate by 21%), Envenom 2 deals 900 base damage plus 15% of AP, while Eviscerate deals 1045 damage plus 15% of AP. However, Eviscerate damage is mitigated by armor, which is typically roughly 30% damage reduction by a raid boss. Thus, Envenom is, at base, slightly better straight-up DPE than Eviscerate. However, Envenom results in the loss of your entire DP stack, resulting in a drop of roughly 45 DPS (before Vile Poisons) for as long as it takes to get the full stack up again. A Mutilate build running dual DP can get enough DPS out of Envenom and DP to make it worthwhile to use. However, for other builds, if you must choose between Eviscerate and Envenom, choose Eviscerate.

10. Miscellaneous Links

Rogue Gear Spreadsheet

 

• Nite_Moogle

These abilities stack. Racial bonus + 2/2 weapon expertise = 365 weapon skill.

Gurgthock: the time taken to implement the 10 hugs achievement could have been used to make a new 5-man

 

◊ Shaker

Weapon speed on mutilate does "matter" but the degree to which it matters is not very large - Kalman had a post back in pf's old thread (I believe) which showed that if you have a reasonable upgrade DPSwise from an offhand dagger, the speed was not a SIGNIFICANT factor to its performance. However, given equal statted/dps daggers, the slower offhand will do (slightly) more damage.

General BT gem rarity from what I can tell from other posts is that the red gems (Crimson Spinel) are in very high demand, so +10 agi gems for rogues aren't a high priority. Given that Rigid Lionseye and Glinting Pyrestones are damn near the same level of DPS and in less demand from other classes, these are excellent choices for the T6 rogue to pursue. Things may change with the Sunwell, depending on changing number/type of sockets on the gear there, and of course, what sort of stats the gear there has.


(edit: not so good at gem names)

 

aquasheep

Not sure how it is for other guilds, but Crimson Spinels are in huge demand from our casters; if I ever wanted to gem 10agi or 20ap for whatever reason, I would have a lot of competition. We seem to have plenty of Lionseyes and Pyrestones though, so 10hit, 10crit, or 5agi/5hit is no problem. 10hit does require your JCs to be Revered with Hyjal, so any gear early on in the instance will have to make do with something else.

 

Oscarvil

Here's some stuff about mutilate offhand from Vitaminc.

Rogue Theorycrap: Mutilate, Part 4: Myth on Off-hand Weapon Choices

The gist is that slow offhand does matter but not so much due to the +101 offhand modifier mutilate gets.

 

◊ Vulajin

This is about as much as I'm going to get in here tonight, there's a hockey game to watch and then a raid to run. Please post any suggestions/additions/corrections/whatever and I'll take care of them after raid or tomorrow.

 

winst

it would be nice to see some math on the actual value of haste, as i'm still (yes even after plugging it into the spreadsheets) questioning my band of devastation and shadow walkers cord over other parts sporting more raw stats.

 

Oscarvil

How about this for a combat mutilate (41/20/0) build?

There are a few filler points in the middle of the assassination tree. You can forgo either of Fleet Footed or Quick Recovery to put points into Improved Poisons, Imp. Kidney Shot or Master Poisoner but these are really minimal changes based on the flavour of your playstyle.

Fleet Footed is a decent dps increase (even more so in 2.3 where it's a 15% speed increase) whenever you're running a lot in an encounter and Quick Recovery is a small dps increase with the bonus of your bandages ticking for just that little bit more which is why I prefer them.

In the combat tree the main talents are Imp. Slice and Dice, Precision and Dual Wield Spec. with the others being fillers. I chose Imp. SS and Gouge because a lot of the time you can't be behind the mob and this enables to build CP more cheaply for a KS to regain position or gives you a little more time to regen energy after a Gouge when regaining position. These are probably as useful in a raid situation as Lightning Reflexes so it's pretty much your choice what to take.

Other builds such as 41/15/5 to get Opportunity or 41/0/20 for Serrated Blades are not recommended for PvE DPS due to the fact that Opportunity nor Serrated Blades can give the DPS increase that Imp. SnD, Precision or Dual Wield Spec give.

There should be something said in the Mutilate section about cycles. It is more complicated running Mut cycles because of the ever-changing number of CP that you generate, coupled with the fact that you want to maximise the benefit of your 10 seconds of Expose Weakness after every finisher. When I played Mut I ran a 4+ cycle, meaning every time I got 4 or more CP I threw a finisher. For the most part the finishers are SnD and Rupture but sometimes you end up with 4 CP and a long time left on your Rupture. In this situation you can either wait for the Rupture to tick off (letting your energy to regen, but not over 100) before refreshing it, otherwise an Eviscerate can be used to spend the CP.

Windfury, poisons and Mutulate: I'm not sure what the optimal setup for a Mut rogue is nowadays. Before the WF nerf it was no question what you used on your mainhand but I have read some people talking about running with dual Deadly Poison and using Envenom over eviscerate/rupture. Someone else should elucidate the intricacies of this problem as I haven't played Mut for a while.

If this is all total crap please educate me (-:

 

◊ Vulajin

Gear and gem sections added. They seem a bit light to me, maybe because there's not a lot to discuss, but let me know if there's anything missing. The AP equivalency numbers were pulled from Aldriana's spreadsheet using the best gear I could put together only from tier 4 level. The numbers given for my current gear seem to be fairly close to these, so I assume they're fairly good, but please yell at me if you disagree.

 

Tyran

It looks like you made some mistakes in the talent spec templates:

The combat swords, combat fist and combat mace specs have 42 points in combat while it is possible to take out 1 filler point (Nerves of Steel/Endurance) and max Lethality instead (4/5 in your templates).
For the fist+sword template you forgot to max Combat Potency (take points out of Lightning Reflexes, Endurance).

 

• koaschten

For combat swords i prefer something more along Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft especially because you dont need the evasion cooldown and 10% stun and fear resist is definitly more dps. One could argue now about 2/2 nerves of steel and 3/5 vile poisons or 1/2 nerves of steel and 4/5 vile poisons.

Ghostcrawler on the topic why rogues are hard to balance: >clicky<

Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy. Without a finite resource like mana, it's easy to analyze every possible move for its cost efficiency and ultimate damage delivery.

 

◊ Vulajin

I consider both of your comments (except forgetting to max CP in the fist+sword template) to be more of "taste"-based things (and I'll freely admit I made those templates based on my taste, which certainly doesn't agree with everybody's). How about if I rewrite the talent section a bit to identify the key talents and which ones are optional?

 

Tyran

I agree there isn't any clearly superior choice for those last points, I just assumed it was a mistake because you had 5/5 Lethality in the fist+sword build but not in the other builds
Identifying key talents would probably be the way to go. They are supposed to be templates after all and not exact guides for where to put each point.