• Vulajin

The buffs used to derive these values were as follows: Improved Fortitude, Gift of the Wild, Improved Battle Shout, Improved Blessing of Might, Unleashed Rage, Improved Hunter's Mark, Flask of Relentless Assault, Warp Burger, Improved Strength of Earth Totem, Sunder Armor, Faerie Fire, Mangle, Heroism/Bloodlust. MH Windfury, OH Deadly Poison. Blessing of Kings was turned on and off as needed to observe differences based on that.

Gear used was, as given in the first post, a set consisting entirely of gear a pre-SSC/TK rogue could be expected to have. Netherblade Facemask, Choker of Vile Intent, Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless, Netherblade Chestpiece, Shard-bound Bracers, Netherblade Gloves, Girdle of the Deathdealer (I also tried with Gronn-Stitched Girdle and had very similar results), Skulker's Greaves, Edgewalker Longboots, Ring of a Thousand Marks, Violet Signet of the Master Assassin, Dragonspine Trophy (also tried with Abacus of Violent Odds to ensure DST wasn't throwing it off), Bloodlust Brooch, Spiteblade (also tried with Merciless Gladiator's Shanker), Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade (also tried with Merciless Gladiator's Shiv), Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix.

Builds used were standard 19/41+1 combat swords and 15/41/5 combat daggers. Your Armory, in fact, was what reminded me that I never specifically tested with combat daggers, so I will provide the values for that here. Note that a large number of your issues with my numbers stem either from the dagger oversight or from rounding, because I did not want to have all the weights be double-digit decimal. I think I'll change that in the future. (Weights for fists and fist/sword without Kings included for comparison.)

Combat Swords
1 Str = 1 AP (1.1 w/ Kings)
1 Agi = 2.00 AP (2.21 w/ Kings)
1 Crit = 1.74 AP (1.75 w/ Kings)
1 Hit = 2.34 AP (2.37 w/ Kings)
1 ArP = 0.27 AP (0.27 w/ Kings)
1 Haste = 2.01 AP (2.05 w/ Kings)

Combat Daggers
1 Str = 1 AP (1.1 w/ Kings)
1 Agi = 1.96 AP (2.17 w/ Kings)
1 Crit = 1.67 AP (1.69 w/ Kings)
1 Hit = 2.21 AP (2.24 w/ Kings)
1 ArP = 0.30 AP (0.30 w/ Kings)
1 Haste = 2.07 AP (2.11 w/ Kings)

Fist/Sword (no Kings)
1 Str = 1 AP
1 Agi = 1.97 AP
1 Crit = 1.69 AP
1 Hit = 2.21 AP
1 ArP = 0.27 AP
1 Haste = 2.01 AP

Combat Fists (no Kings)
1 Str = 1 AP
1 Agi = 1.96 AP
1 Crit = 1.67 AP
1 Hit = 2.10 AP
1 ArP = 0.27 AP
1 Haste = 2.00 AP

The primary differences between swords and daggers seem to be that agility, crit, and hit are all slightly more valuable with swords, but armor penetration and haste slightly less valuable. Note that the values of agility, crit, hit, armor penetration, and haste will all scale up relative to AP as your gear improves. Also note that fist/sword and fists seem to incorporate the poorer scaling of swords for armor penetration and haste, and the poorer scaling of daggers for agility, crit, and hit.

I'd like to figure out some way to integrate the above information into the first post in a compact manner. Once I do, I'll make the change. And as always, thanks for checking my facts for me. I'm only one guy, I can't get everything perfect on the first shot.

 

• sedrikk

I am just curious how others modify their dps cycle to accommodate AP increasing procs and abilities. Things such as Mongoose, Unleashed Rage, Tsunami Talisman, Hourglass of the Unraveller, etc. I often find myself unable to reapply rupture because i still have time left on my previous which was applied while i had an AP buff, and now the AP buff is gone. So I am spamming the rupture key yet all i get is the fun "A more powerful spell is already active" message. So while i wait i continue to regen energy, SnD gets closer to running out, and my 1s/5r cycle can get completely thrown off. Depending on how lucky i get with relentless and combat potency the time can be several seconds. Is it best to just wait the entire duration of rupture, which can lead to a loss of snd and a loss of energy and continue with the 5 pt rupture. Or is it best to just throw up a 5pt snd and start building combo points for a 5pt rupture and let rupture fall off and not snd. Or perhaps a 5pt evis, and then start over.

 

Ticia

Edit: Damnit, Aldriana beat me to the punch and was more concise about it.

 

Faytte

Yep. Noted for future threads to, srry for the sword v dag stuff

Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)

 

Arindelest

The problem with Rupture (and the whole "overwrite" situation) is that there are so many variable buffs that even were it very advantageous to optimally time your Ruptures it is basically impossible to do so. For example there are many buffs which you can't control, but end up going off, such as Mongoose, UR, TT, Hourglass, Ferocious Inspiration, Grace of Air Totem (for a totem-twisting shaman); there are ones you can (Bloodlust Brooch, etc.).

You're never going to get the "optimal" buffs up just because there are so many, for example, at one point you may have Double Mongoose, and think that is a good point to Rupture, but the next time you have 5 Combo Points, you now have UR + Mongoose + TT.

So instead, if you can, just build to five combo points and drop the Rupture, if you can't, I tend to SS an extra time or two (even with 5 CPs) and then Rupture when I can, then use SnD as I would normally. This results in little to no lost SnD uptime. Also, once you lose the 2pc-NB bonus this problem basically never occurs, because you're spending a lot more of your Rupture time building for the succeeding SnD.

 

Varsyn

Excellent, these I can agree with

I think for the sake of compactness, you do not really need to include all the additive buffs. Maybe just include specifications on the buffs that affect a total unit by a % such as kings, sinister calling, presence of Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, etc.

And really, we should be thanking you! Taking the time and putting in the effort to write this compendium of useful information is really very neat. I don't think words can describe just how thankful many rogues will be to have this useful information compiled into a single post for quick reference. So, with that, I offer you a hearty "Thank you!"

 

Auluras

So here is a quick question I'm not sure if its been asked yet but......is the amount of hit rating a rogue will loose going from Kara to ZA gear worth while? or should one stick with the Karazhan Gear and focus on the weapon drops in ZA and only worry about getting the boots from Badge turn in. Or is the Haste and Ignore Armor a larger DPS upgrade for us over the Huge Hit rating we would looses

 

• Vulajin

I bet the first post answers these questions. I just betcha. Don't ask how I know.

 

Kenamoto

Sorry if I'm repeating old news, but I've been going through threads to find out where maces fall in dps now since the 2.3 changes on the PTR with weapon skill to expertise now and maces gaining a 5% damage increase on critcal strikes. I saw on the first page reading the roguecraft post that for a maces spec you didn't need weapon expertise since that only affected swords, daggers and fist. Now it's changed and was wondering is that now needed for maces? I know maces is a little bit more pve viable but where can I find some more info on combat maces?

 

Volc

Looking at the new changes with mace spec receiving 5% crit damage and sword procs effecting mainhand it would nearly be possible to make a mace/sword spec that is a viable spec for pve and pvp, with minimal loss of talents from either side. I'm looking forward to it.

 

• Vulajin

Responses to both of these things are in the first post, in the "Preliminary 2.3 Information" section.

 

Volc

wasn't after a response was making a statement :P

 

Mideci

Has anyone actually tested 2.3 at all to find out (a) if the dual-wield miss penalty has seen any changes or (b) if the massive increase in misses is reducing dps meaningfully?

 

• Bluefish

Done. Download here.

All logs are with 1540 AP, no procs altering attack power. They should be pretty clearly labelled as to what effects were in play with each log. I was wielding a [Blackout Truncheon] with a boquet of flowers in the off-hand.

If there's any questions or you need more data, let me know

 

Urgonzigh

Can someone point me to the math or testing which demonstrates how much armor penetration increases DPS? I see above where 0.27 ArP = 1 AP for sword rogues, but the only source I can find is, "that's what the spreadsheet says."

 

• Vulajin

The math is in the spreadsheet. Moreover, it varies with your gear and spec. 0.27 ArP = 1 AP is an example value for a particular configuration of gear and talents.

 

Autolycus

Just curious, because damage mitigation through armor works on a non-linear scale, in your equations where 1 armor pen = 0.27 ap, does this change with the more armor penetration you get? are there any charts out there that show how the mitigation works from 1 armor - 32k armor?

 

• Aldriana

The .27 number is drawn from what a boss typically has in a raid situation. As you get more armor penetration, it becomes more powerful - and, conversely, if you have less armor penetration, it's worth less. That said, in the ranges that we usually operate (where it's hard to have more than 500 or so passive armor penetration from gear) the value doesn't fluxuate too dramatically, so as a first approximation I think the .27 number is fine. Those that want a more detailed answer, customized to their current gear and talents, can use the spreadsheet to obtain it.

 

panny

How is 88 agility for 5 people a waste of time and mana? Obviously, there is a gain there, the trade-offs should be considered instead of dismissing it.

First of all: time. Not including buff totems every 2 minutes, all Shaman do while DPSing is to click Stormstrike every 10 seconds and a shock every 6 seconds. We have plently of free GCDs. Since instants don't interrupt auto-attacking, we can drop totems during our free GCDs to boost DPS.

Secondly: mana. This will be dependant on your Shaman's gear, but I manage a WF rank 2 rotation with a max rank GoA fine. If your Shaman doesn't have the gear/consumable usage to do this, he should work out whether 88 agility is more overall raidDPS than his shock rotation and prioritise whichever is higher when he's mana constrained (it is most likely totem twisting).

One thing to clarify though: GoA can't be up for 100% of the time due to the GCD. The best you can hope for without losing WF Totem is 81%.

Fix Spirit Wolves not responding to commands.
DK/Rogue

 

Urgonzigh

Well, there are a few problems with simply relying on messing with the spreadsheet and seeing what it say for the value of armor penetration.

1. Sometimes spreadsheets have mistakes and so independant verification is valuable.

2. By understanding the formulas, I can, for example, figure out which stats and talents are synergistic and so make better choices.

3. When I tell the other rogues, "Well, the spreadsheet says..." I get cut off by someone saying "you and your *** spreadsheets."

To a zero order approximation, AP and ArP do the same thing - increase the damage done by each hit. Why do they both need to exist? There must be a crossover point where itemizing ArP becomes more effective, or some types of target where ArP is more effective.

 

• Vulajin

Long story short, the calculations are far too complex to simply "verify independently," unless you wish to construct your own spreadsheet. The spreadsheet calculations incorporate all of your procs and talents as well as your combo point cycle to arrive at a conclusion. I can't imagine actually going through the tedium to repeat such calculations by hand. Might there be mistakes in the spreadsheet? Possibly. Are they blatant enough to be easily shown using calculations done by hand? No.

 

• Bluefish

Is anybody gonna do anything with the Mace Spec / RED / Lethality combat logs I posted here? I'd do the math myself but I'm not sure I'm capable of it...

 

• Vulajin

Sorry, I downloaded your log the other day, I haven't had a chance to go through it yet. Thanks for reminding me, though.

 

HazardBlade

I've been looking over and doing some tests in-game and I've realised that your guide contains an error; apparently 1 agility = 1 attack power, instead of two. If I am wrong, and this is an upcoming change in a later patch then sorry, was just trying to point it out.

Can anyone shed any light on the matter?

 

Rerolled

From the first post: These guidelines work by comparing the amount of DPS provided by any one stat to the amount of DPS provided by a point of Attack Power