Corbet

Pretty cool idea, but why not allow the user to enter the WoWhead item ID and automatically calculate it?

 

Towelette

Your guild needs a new Rogue Class Leader. It pains me to see idiots leading a whole class worth of players for a guild.

Looking at your Armory profile, I see that you have gone with the suggestions made already. Additionally, I would sub in the Shoulderpads of the Stranger for your T5 (possibly) and the Shard of Contempt for your WSC (definitely). If it wouldn't put you at or above the Expertise cap, the SoC is going to be significantly better for you than the WSC. As was said before, there is no "sweet spot" for hit rating, and the 'hit before all else!' myth that just won't die needs to be dispelled already. Even at my gear level (SSC\TK and 2.4 Badge loot) the spreadsheet shows Agility to be worth almost as much as hit rating already (assuming full raid buffs including Kings).

It takes a little bit of work to start using the spreadsheet if you're like me and not computer competent whatsoever, but it's definitely a tool worth using, even at the most basic level of utilizing the AEP calculator to compare gear and upgrades. Your Rogue Class Leader really needs to spend an hour or two reading both this thread and the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet thread by Aldrianna et al. Fundamental misunderstandings of the class is something that a guild cannot easily afford in its Class Leaders.

 

Towelette

This is a tactic I've been using the past couple of months myself, although Aldrianna's spreadsheet says to "cut" my SnD finishers (2pc T4 still). Honestly, I really can't understand the benefit in doing so. I've been waiting to refresh my SnD at around 80 Energy if I have the time left on my current SnD (or slightly less if I have to). It really seems illogical to overwrite 5-6s of running SnD to be sitting at a low amount of Energy. I just don't see how this would increase my Rupture uptime. Am I just misunderstanding something here?

 

Vodrin

That is not cutting SnD, you are doing it right by letting your energy pool until SnD is almost dropping off. The problem comes when SnD won't run off before you cap energy. That is when you cut your SnD and sinister strike the energy away. A spreadsheet gives you the probable cycle, however you may get unlucky with combat potency and ruthlessness meaning you aren't needing to cut your SnD as your energy won't cap. In short don't worry about it, just do what you are doing.

 

Valustria

Two things:

1] Regarding the current discussion of SnD cycles, I have a question concerning my own current method of handling them. This is what I do: once I get SnD running, I build combo points toward a 5r, and hit that as soon as I have the energy to get Rupture ticking. Now, I start SSing for combo points toward my next finisher, presumably another SnD. At any point in this phase of my cycle, if SnD is about to end, I refresh it for however many CP I have. If I hit 5CP before SnD ends, I will do one of three things, with the following priority: a) if SnD is about to run out, I'll let my energy regen until just before SnD ends and then refresh it, b) if SnD is up with plenty of time and Rupture is about to run out, I'll Rupture as soon as it ends, c) if both SnD and Rupture are up with plenty of time, I'll pop a 5CP Eviscerate for the immediate hard hit it provides. I have always felt this method ensures CP are never wasted inefficiently, even if it sometimes means that Rupture ends and isn't renewed immediately.

Now, my question is: am I correct in thinking that a 5CP Eviscerate to make efficient use of combo points warrants the occasional lapse in Rupture uptime? Is it actually efficient? I know that given the choice between the two, Rupture over Eviscerate whenever possible, provided the full Rupture will tick off on your target... but if the choice is between refreshing a SnD or Rupture that is still "in progress" or blasting the mob with a 5CP Eviscerate, am I right in thinking the Eviscerate is the most damaging use of the CP at the time, even if it means that the following Rupture has to be delayed slightly?

2] I have used the spreadsheet to compare my current [Choker of Vile Intent] to the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]. I am Aldor, and according to the spreadsheet, the latter provides an increase of roughly 5 DPS. My instinct is that this is only a reliable valuation in pure tank and spank encounters -- I feel that on anything else, the proc effect isn't worth nearly as much because something could interrupt your DPS, wasting the effect. Take Tidewalker, for example... as much as he is a tank and spank encounter for the most part, his Watery Grave could remove you from the fight just after the SSPoM procs, and now that 200 AP buff is totally wasted. For this reason, I'm inclined to stick with the guaranteed, yet slightly lower stats of the Choker, that include Hit Rating, as that is always beneficial to me. Am I wrong to do so, or does the proc effect of the SSPoM validate my opinion of it as being situationally superior at best?

 

hannigaholic

Conversely, you could get graved just after the 200AP buff runs out, meaning that you're just eating internal cooldown time, increasing the uptime of SSPoM compared to total dps time. Over time my guess is that you'd get just as many times of it happening one way as it does the other. I'd say it's best to just take whichever gives you higher sustained dps (in this case, the SSPoM).

 

Arindelest

If I understand what you mean, then the exact proc mechanics of SSPoM actually make it fairly good for fights with frequent interruptions. Of course it depends on the amount of time on target/off target, but with its high proc chance and internal cooldown, you're likely to proc the Pendant fairly quickly once you start attacking, then triggering the internal cooldown so you can't proc it again for 45s. Of course, if you were to run into a scenario where you're attacking mobs for ~50s at a time, you might run into some issues with wasted uptime.

Also the hit rating on the Choker is worth less on an interrupted fight than it would be in a tank n' spank situation.

 

Corbet

You seem to be mistaken, I don't have WSC. In fact, the item has never dropped for me in past guilds or ever for my current guild. I also never had access to T5 Shoulders either (I was always happy with Shoulderpads of the Stranger and never bothered to get them). I doubt we'll make it back into SSC/TK since we're working on BT (we full clear Hyjal).

The only thing I'm still a little iffy on is the SSO Neck (Aldor) vs. Worgen Necklace. I got the spreadsheet listed in the OP and changed my gear accordingly.

 

Dontmindme

The SSO neck is an upgrade. If anything it gets better with interruptions since they are going to eat into the cooldown more than the proc will get cut off. This would result in a greater effective uptime (uptime vs. time on target) than with an uninterrupted fight.

 

wow

edit: oops, i was replying to something from 2 pages ago without noticing

 

drumbum

Basically, here's what's happening. You are not "cutting" your SND, which means that the length of your SND is getting longer and longer, because you keep upgrading to a higher rank SND until you're just spitting out 5-pt SNDs all the time. Then, you have so much SND time that you get a 5-pt Rupture off and you have a ton of SND time left. So you build up enough points for a 5-pt Eviscerate. Now, what exactly have you gained? Your SND uptime is still the same (100%) so you haven't gained any damage through your SND uptime. Your Rupture uptime is lower, because you are using Eviscerate sometimes, so you are in the end just substituting Rupture damage for Eviscerate damage. But we already know Rupture is better than Eviscerate, not to mention it costs 10 less energy, so really you aren't actually increasing your damage output.

The reason you don't build up to 5 combo points for a SND is specifically because it allows you to push your Ruptures closer together, without losing any SND uptime. If you are in the situation where your SND has several seconds left, and according to your cycle it's time to refresh SND... your best option really is to refresh SND, not to use another SS for another combo point, because doing so means delaying your next Rupture by about 4 seconds, without actually gaining any benefit from your SND being longer.

 

• Latito

The one point I'll add to Drumbum's post above mine is that there IS a point of inflection where Sinister Strike starts to outperform Rupture in terms of Damage per Energy. This is due to weapon dmg, Crit and Armor Pen. All 3 factors increase the damage done by Sinister Strike and do nothing for your Rupture. This point is often achieved with a high level of raid buffs and about the best Pre-sunwell gear. Having a MH Warglaive goes a long way to reaching this point.

Once this point is reached, you want to consider a few things: Since our class is largely limited by energy, you will want to spend every last point of energy on Sinister Strike, exclusively. Therefore, only use finishers when they are "free".. 5-pointers which gaurentee a Relentless Strikes proc to refund your 25 energy. This puts you at a 5s/5r cycle. In practice, you will want to continue building to 5 combo points, pool energy to 65 and then use a finisher, alternating SnD and Rupture. 65 Energy is a decent place to be at because you can afford 1 combat potency proc and 1 energy tick without capping energy. Be careful with pooling energy that you don't allow it to cap out.

Using this technique will often mean refreshing SnD with anywhere from 3-8 seconds left (roughly.. it varies pending on Ruthlessness procs mostly). Even at a higher level of gear which does not quite reach this point of inflection, it often is a decent thing to do anyways. For instance, raid buffed in my current gear, 3s/5 is projected to do a whoping 2 dps more than 5s/5r. Less than 0.1% more dps. However, 5s/5r is a MUCH more sustainable cycle. In actual gameplay you will certainly notice that averages don't always work out. You don't get 0.6 combo points per finisher. You don't get 3 energy per second from combat potency. On average over 15 or 20 or 1000 minutes you might, but not over the 22 to 30 second length of your cycle.

Rupture uptime isn't really the be-all-end-all of rogue dps. Maximizing your time on target, maximizing your SnD time and spending energy efficiently are all more important. When you spend 10 extra energy per cycle to get another 5% uptime on your Rupture.. just remember, that cost you 400 dmg and 1/4 of a combo point.

 

• Aldriana

Just to be clear: it's not that SS by itself it more efficient in damage per energy terms than Rupture; in practice, that can't happen. What is true is that the marginal increase in energy efficiency becomes small enough that the loss of energy doesn't justify the increased rupture uptime - that is, the energy efficiency of the cycle component goes down, even though Rupture is theoretically more energy efficient in a vacuum.

Basically, Latito's conclusions about cycles are totally true; it's just that one wants to be a bit careful about stating them, as the reasons are not obvious and easily misunderstood.

 

Valustria

See, I think what Latito and Aldriana are saying is kinda what I felt instinctively, even if at my gear level I might still be far from that point. As Drumbum was saying about my SnD uptime getting longer, resulting in me substituting Rupture for Eviscerate damage when I have 5CP and plenty of time on SnD... I have always felt like that was okay because I'm guaranteed a refund of 25e due to Relentless Strikes when I spend that 35e on a 5CP Eviscerate. And then any finisher I use after that to keep SnD running or reapply Rupture brings with it at least a small chance of another refund.

I guess I just feel like "cutting" my SnD is counterproductive in terms of maximizing potential damage output and Relentless Strikes energy refunds, and have always felt they yield more DPS than keeping Rupture up simply for the sake of keeping Rupture up... but I know this is my gut feeling, and not necessarily the truth supported by the math.

I can say that doing things this way has, on rare occasion, caused SnD to drop as I misjudged how much time/energy I would have to pop off a 5CP finisher before refreshing SnD. Not often, but sometimes... and I always feel like kicking myself for getting greedy whenever that happens -- luckily, I am (and my guild is) generally overgeared for the content we are currently raiding (SSC) so it never really matters. I'd be pissed if I still let that happen in something like the Brutallus encounter.

 

kargathia

In the situation where I have 5 CP, and 2 seconds left on SnD, would it be better to rupture and hope for a ruthlessness proc so the standard 1s/5r cycle is maintained (I am currently using 2pc t4) or SnD, and suddenly have to modify around with the next cycle so it fits around a 5CP SnD?

In the first case it stands a 40% chance of having roughly 1-2 seconds SnD downtime, in the second case the cycle suddenly changed, and stands a good chance of SnD having to be refreshed long before it runs out.

I already solved most of this problem by maintaining the rule of thumb that you should rupture at 5 seconds before SnD runs out, but this did not solve all these problems. Multiple times I already had to choose between 3 seconds less of rupture, or 40% chance of 1 second SnD downtime.

 

• Aldriana

Well, it's been pretty conclusively shown that at lower gear levels - like, anything short of end-BT loot, basically - cycle compression is the way to go. Particularly at T4 levels of itemization, the high rupture-uptime cycles tend to be the way to go... particularly if you have 2/5 T4 and can pull off 1s5r or 2s5r. By the time one starts to get T6, the advantage becomes lesser - the compressed cycles are somewhat more damage, but as they are a bit riskier it's reasonable to go to 5s5r, particularly if you have other jobs to do during the fight - it's an easier cycle to maintain so allows you to be a bit sloppier and still get things done. But until you get to mid-late T5 at the very least, you almost certainly will be better of doing a compressed high-rupture cycle than anything else.

 

Supa918

With the belt of one hundred deaths, the shard of contempt and weapon expertise I sit at 27 giving me a 6.75% reduction in dodge/parry. With that gear on I'm sitting at 251 hit, but if I swap out the belt for the belt of deep shadow, it changes to 21 expertise and 269 hit with little difference in crit and 10 ap.

Would it be a better fit to keep the one hundred deaths equipped and sacrifice that extra 18 hit for the expertise, or keep the deep shadow equipped. I'm having a hard time deciding without having a few solid WWS parses to look over and compare miss %s on auto attacks/SS.

 

saedo

What do the spreadsheets tell you?

 

Supa918

Before this weekend, both of them favored the belt of deep shadow. But I downloaded the two newer versions of the dps sheet and the gear sheet, and now they both favor one hundred deaths. Was just hoping from some insight from a person rather than excel :p

 

• Feist-Mok

Our insight comes from excel. Why shouldn't yours?

The reason the spreadsheets answers changed is likely because they've both just recieved significant updates to offer support for 2.4 gear as well as all the new procs, etc. etc.

 

Valustria

Currently, my gear spans the T4-T5+ spectrum. I'm still wearing recolored Bloodfang chest, pants, and shoulders from Karazhan, along with T4 helm and gloves, but mixed with some badge and craftable gear that is well above that and much closer to T5/T6 in terms of item level and AEP value, like my new [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality], [Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery], the [Belt of Deep Shadow], and [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots]. So I guess I'll stick to tighter cycles and see if that improves my DPS any -- I already tend to lead in melee DPS on most fights, with only a hunter whose gear is of higher level and stats than mine typically beating me on the meters, and not by very much.

Talking about my gear, though, makes me want to bring up an issue that's been worrying me recently. Having switched from my S2 swords to the new badge fists, I lost a lot of Stamina. Couple that with the fact that my next major chest upgrade (until I can get 85 more badges for the [Tunic of the Dark Hour]) is the [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest], which will cost me even more... I've gone from about 8500 health to 7900-ish already, and the idea of losing even more has me a bit worried. Should I really be concerned, or will raid buffs give me all the extra Stamina I'll need for SSC and TK? I'm wondering if it would be worth slapping a [Falling Star] into the blue socket of the Bloodsea Brigand's Vest, should I acquire it, just for the sake of greater survivabilty, as dead rogues deal no DPS. A waste, or worthy compromise? It's not a huge deal, because the badge chest has plenty Stamina to compensate, but like I said, that's still 85 badges away... I'm a bit concerned in the meantime, though.

 

Sneakiest

I reckon you could get yourself [Swiftstrike Bracers] crafted, should be a decent stamina boost and a minor DPS upgrade (perhaphs, I didn't put your gear through the sheets, just guesstimating here). On another notice, wouldn't you be getting the same benefit from dual spec 16/45/0 with a [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] and [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]? Again, bear in mind I'm just guesstimating here, but it should be a +15 DPS at least off the top of my head, I mean the raw DPS stats on season 2 isn't that far off from Vanir's and any other additional stats will just be eclipsed by sword spec. EDIT: Maybe not an upgrade, but it should be close (I was factoring in my BoS vs Vanir's from when I messed with the sheets about the fists).

That's two relatively easy ways to boost your DPS and your stamina. In regards to an 'optimal' stamina point -- I honestly can't say I remember any specific points. But most of the stuff in SSC/TK has random damage in some form, some fights worse than others. The only fight where you'll specifically need 8500+ HP should be on Naj'entus later on in BT, but I'm honestly a big fan of a solid amount of HP and personally I'd say anything under 8K is just too little (my former orc rogue which I was forced to abandon for a few months due to transfer has ~8.5k HP and it makes me flinch every time I play it nowadays).

 

Snus

Due to recent dps upgrades from ZA on my gear, I lost a lot of hit rating. Because of this, I have been seeing deadly poison fall off the bosses more and more. I was wondering if it is ever correct to Shiv a 2 or 3-stack deadly poison in order to save the stack on the target. I remember reading a couple pages back that is is indeed correct to save a 5-stack from falling, but there was no mention of smaller stack sizes. If the answer is no, is there a ever a point where instant poison OH would be better because deadly falls?
(I should note that I don't have any points in Vile Poisons because I'm fist/sword.)

 

coderego

Question about these spreadsheets, the gear and the DPS one...what is the difference? They both seem to do the same thing..

 

• Feist-Mok

The two sheets use different techniques to model a variety of the factors that affect rogue DPS. They have different maintainers, and in some cases, as a result, produce differing outcomes. Having two spreadsheets is a handy way to cross-check directional results. In general, the gear sheet is regarded as more accurate for those specs and situations which it covers, but the DPS sheet is far more comprehensive.