Roguecraft 101 - Page 100

pewsey · 02/18/08, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Icos

Small question.

Which is better? Opening with Garrote on bleedable bosses, or just running in and opening immediately with your cycle?

I've yet to see an answer to this, been wondering for a while now.

I've never modelled it - so YMMV - but here's my reasoning.

If the tank has enough initial threat - I'll run in and wail away with SS.
If I think aggro will be a bit sketch that a sinister strike crit, then sword spec proc crit might make the boss "angry" with me, then I'll use stealth and garotte them.

In nearly all circumstances - running in and hitting the boss will provide much more DPS than using Garotte.

So - better is a bit subjective - but for me better is "not dead".

Cyn · 02/18/08, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Icos

Small question.

Which is better? Opening with Garrote on bleedable bosses, or just running in and opening immediately with your cycle?

I've yet to see an answer to this, been wondering for a while now.

Garrote and Sinister strike are going to be fairly close in Damage per Energy, but how many white hits do you miss while you stealth in? Sinister strike + 2 white hits is going to put you ahead over a garrote

Feist-Mok · 02/18/08, 1:08 AM

I stealth in and garrotte as a way to force myself to stay out until the tank has threat.

If the extra 1-3000 damage is going to really make a difference to you at the end though, running in and mashing sinister strike will give more damage, as the posters above have noted.

daverk50 · 02/18/08, 8:27 AM

Just as an aside some bosses are pickpocketable so opening from stealth may get you some minor goodies and cash. I've actually gotten a couple of green gems. No big, but still fun.

I also use it as a way to let the tank get threat. I've been known to be a little over eager at times.

xyresic · 02/18/08, 1:36 PM

Is there an 'optimal' set of professions a rogue should take? I've been reading around and I haven't found any real information regarding what's considered the best professions for personal/raid dps. As for myself, I'm my guilds token TSH rogue, and I currently have Enchanting and Herbalism. Enchanting for the ring enchants and Herbalism for cash. I'm seriously thinking of dropping Herbalism since daily quests net so much cash I don't really need a gathering profession unless I'm using what I gather as mats for a crafting profession. I know most just choose a crafting profession for gear they want (Leatherworking, Blacksmithing for the maces, etc), but it seems like a sink to me because in most if not all cases, crafted items are replaceable with drops or other gear sources. Am I wrong in this?

I've considered Jewelcrafting for the BoP gems, and I'm willing to eat that cost for dps (I did it for enchanting). There's also a passive benefit by taking Jewelcrafting and Enchanting, as you can DIY your own gear instead of paying mats for it. Would Leatherworking for drums be better? The spreadsheets tell me I can gain like ~2+ dps per gem, and ~10+ with Drums of Battle, but am I missing something? Should I wait for Inscription?

Seems like a note on optimal professions would be a handy thing to put on the first page.

Thanks again for all the great info in this thread.

Hanos · 02/18/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by xyresic

Is there an 'optimal' set of professions a rogue should take? I've been reading around and I haven't found any real information regarding what's considered the best professions for personal/raid dps. As for myself, I'm my guilds token TSH rogue, and I currently have Enchanting and Herbalism. Enchanting for the ring enchants and Herbalism for cash. I'm seriously thinking of dropping Herbalism since daily quests net so much cash I don't really need a gathering profession unless I'm using what I gather as mats for a crafting profession. I know most just choose a crafting profession for gear they want (Leatherworking, Blacksmithing for the maces, etc), but it seems like a sink to me because in most if not all cases, crafted items are replaceable with drops or other gear sources. Am I wrong in this?

I've considered Jewelcrafting for the BoP gems, and I'm willing to eat that cost for dps (I did it for enchanting). There's also a passive benefit by taking Jewelcrafting and Enchanting, as you can DIY your own gear instead of paying mats for it. Would Leatherworking for drums be better? The spreadsheets tell me I can gain like ~2+ dps per gem, and ~10+ with Drums of Battle, but am I missing something? Should I wait for Inscription?

Seems like a note on optimal professions would be a handy thing to put on the first page.

Thanks again for all the great info in this thread.

It really depends on your level of progression. Leatherworking is going to be ideal for most rogues due to Drums, and the benefits your entire group gets from them. You can also get some nice pieces of gear like the Boots from SSC/TK, Shoulders from BT/Hyjal, that are very nice until you can get better, however Edgewalkers are better, and the shoulders off High Warlord are close and T6 is better. Armory isn't working so I am going by Wowjutsu, which says end of SSC/TK, but not in T6 yet. In T7 it looks like LW and JC'ing will be the best with a Best in Slot LW'ing Chest, and a Best in Slot JC'ing Neck, until then, LW'ing and whatever else will be pretty close.

Latito · 02/18/08, 2:16 PM

Enchanting is also decent due to the ring enchants. +8 stats isn't game-breaking.. but worth noting.

Bluefish · 02/18/08, 3:10 PM

With the introduction of [Pattern: Carapace of Sun and Shadow] I would suggest Leatherworking, with the caveat that unless you're terribly unlucky on drops and flat out of badges, you'll likely never craft any BoP armor before that. With my gear, the Carapace is 26 AP over [Bladed Chaos Tunic] (the next-best-in-slot) and [Drums of Battle] weigh in at a strong 14 DPS plus group benefit.

With Nether Vortex being BoE and purchasable with Badges in 2.4, [Dragonstrike] would be within your grasp if you took up BS instead. However, indications are that Season 4 will be coming in the "relatively near" (several months) future, making S2 weapons available for honor and S3 for arena points with no rating requirement. LW would probably be the better long-term choice.

• Vulajin · 02/19/08, 3:37 AM

Originally Posted by Carnificus

I was wondering if there was a version of the 'EP' charts for Mutilate-combat specs.

Sorry, but as the EP weights are based upon the theoretical DPS provided by each stat as calculated by our spreadsheet models of each spec, and considering that the best known Mutilate DPS model is not considered to be anywhere near as strong as those for other specs (read as: Seal Fate sucks and spreadsheet-makers hate it), I can't provide accurate EP values for a Mutilate build.

I would venture that Mutilate builds would experience increased benefits from agility and crit relative to combat builds, slightly reduced benefit from hit and haste, and similar benefit from expertise. I couldn't guess whether armor penetration would be more or less valuable.

• Vulajin · 02/19/08, 4:10 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

But really, this just reiterates how important it is to use a spreadsheet if you want accurate information.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but you and I both know that there will be a lot of people reading this thread who aren't likely to ever use the spreadsheet.

I think the best way to approach the EP weights is probably to balance an "ideal" raid setup with a "realistic" raid setup. By this I mean that a typical raid is most likely not going to provide the rogue with an enhancement shaman, a BM hunter with a wolf, a DPS warrior, and a feral druid all in the same group. However, enhance+warrior+feral+rogue+rogue is a realistic setup that a typical raid guild would want to shoot for anyway. Full armor debuffs are ideal (FF+Sunder+CoR) and are reasonable to use on pretty much any boss (doing Archimonde attempts with CoR taught me that). I think that two paladins is probably the best assumption to make as well. Basically I assume anything that's reasonable to expect in a raid guild, without assuming any of the "fancy" stuff that can be done to increase DPS (Expose Weakness and Blood Frenzy, drums, haste pots). So the list comes out like this:

Leader of the Pack
Mark of the Wild (5/5 Improved)
Faerie Fire
Mangle
Hunter's Mark (5/5 Improved)
Blessing of Might (0/5 Improved)
Power Word: Fortitude (2/2 Improved)
Bloodlust (x1)
Strength of Earth Totem (2/2 Improved)
Windfury Totem (2/2 Improved)
Unleashed Rage
Curse of Recklessness
Sunder Armor
Battle Shout (5/5 Improved, no [Solarian's Sapphire])
Flak of Relentless Assault
Spicy Hot Talbuk

I'll redo the EP tables in the near future using this spread of buffs.

Rerox · 02/19/08, 5:00 AM

Still wondering on the expertise topic...

WoWWiki still (or again) reports:

A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed.

So it seems there are two completely different numbers people work with.
This will cause severe problems when theorycrafting or working on spreadsheets, so we need to prove one or the other number.

Biarch · 02/19/08, 6:04 AM

if u have a choice between Grace of air and Windfury what would be best for dps?

i know that WF is surperior to Instant poison but i wonder if the agi lose is out weighed by the gain of WF

• Vulajin · 02/19/08, 6:29 AM

Originally Posted by Biarch

if u have a choice between Grace of air and Windfury what would be best for dps?

i know that WF is surperior to Instant poison but i wonder if the agi lose is out weighed by the gain of WF

On poisons and Windfury: for PvE, always choose DP on the offhand. If you are in a group with a shaman and you're combat, you'll get more DPS from Windfury as opposed to Grace of Air + IP. However, the difference is not as dramatic as it is for, say, a DPS warrior. If your group contains a DPS warrior, Windfury Totem will usually be dropped. Otherwise, if less than half the group is rogues, Grace of Air Totem will probably be dropped and you should use IP on the MH. Always check with your shaman if you're unsure what will be dropped. For Mutilate, Grace of Air Totem might be preferable, but Windfury Totem is still quite powerful. Note that dual DP is a waste for all builds except Mutilate, and only if you use Envenom. For all builds, [Adamantite Sharpening Stone] are inferior unless the target is immune to poisons.

Relevant part bolded. I know it's a long post, but you'd think people who had questions would be particularly careful to double-check the sections dealing with their issue before posting.

hannigaholic · 02/19/08, 7:21 AM

I must say I was shocked that Instant Poison and GoA was actually better for a rogue than Windfury Totem. It's right, of course; it just came as a big surprise for some reason.

patcherke · 02/19/08, 7:43 AM

I have some questions about the cycles used for finishers :

1. why doing a 4s5r cycle if you have no T4 set bonus? to get 5 points for the rupture, you need 20s to build them up. To cover these 20 seconds, a 3 point SnD is enough if you have put talents in it (which is the case with the combat builds)

A 3 point slice and dice lasts for 18 * 1.3 = 23,4s

Even a 2 point slice and dice will be good imo (lasts for 19.5 s, which leave you with 0.5 s of not having SnD, but I think this will be covered by the fact that you have more finishers in the end)

2. on the 1s5r cycle : a 1s finisher lasts for 18.6s when you got the T4 bonus. This means that you got 1.4 s of not having SnD. Does this mean that an extra point in SnD does not make up for the loss in rupture finishers??