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Old 02/19/08, 7:56 AM   #1501
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
I must say I was shocked that Instant Poison and GoA was actually better for a rogue than Windfury Totem. It's right, of course; it just came as a big surprise for some reason.
What on earth are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Patcherke
1. why doing a 4s5r cycle if you have no T4 set bonus? to get 5 points for the rupture, you need 20s to build them up. To cover these 20 seconds, a 3 point SnD is enough if you have put talents in it (which is the case with the combat builds)

A 3 point slice and dice lasts for 18 * 1.3 = 23,4s

Even a 2 point slice and dice will be good imo (lasts for 19.5 s, which leave you with 0.5 s of not having SnD, but I think this will be covered by the fact that you have more finishers in the end)

2. on the 1s5r cycle : a 1s finisher lasts for 18.6s when you got the T4 bonus. This means that you got 1.4 s of not having SnD. Does this mean that an extra point in SnD does not make up for the loss in rupture finishers??
You are forgetting that after the Rupture, you have to again build up points to use your next Slice and Dice. Letting Slice and Dice drop would be violating one of the 7 commandments of rogue DPS. If you don't have T4 2pc, 2s/5r will allow Slice to fall off before you can refresh it. 3s/5r is doable and is used by quite a large number of rogues, but 4s/5r is more reliable if you are worried about Slice falling off in the absence of procs.

You are also forgetting that Combat Potency procs shorten the amount of time needed to generate the CP for your next finisher. On average, 1s/5r is the best usable cycle with T4 2pc, and 3s/5r or 4s/5r are best without it (until late T6, at which point you may choose to use 5s/5r).

Last edited by Vulajin : 02/19/08 at 8:01 AM.

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Old 02/19/08, 9:40 AM   #1502
hannigaholic
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
What on earth are you talking about?
Quite obviously I was talking about being surprised that GoA + IP was better than just using WF totem for rogue dps. What part of that was unclear?

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Old 02/19/08, 9:54 AM   #1503
Hanos
Back in my day...
 
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Troll Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
I must say I was shocked that Instant Poison and GoA was actually better for a rogue than Windfury Totem. It's right, of course; it just came as a big surprise for some reason.
What? No, it isn't. It might be close, but it isn't better for a combat rogue in any know situation or combination of gear. Please do spread misinformation like this.

Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
I have some questions about the cycles used for finishers :

1. why doing a 4s5r cycle if you have no T4 set bonus? to get 5 points for the rupture, you need 20s to build them up. To cover these 20 seconds, a 3 point SnD is enough if you have put talents in it (which is the case with the combat builds)

A 3 point slice and dice lasts for 18 * 1.3 = 23,4s

Even a 2 point slice and dice will be good imo (lasts for 19.5 s, which leave you with 0.5 s of not having SnD, but I think this will be covered by the fact that you have more finishers in the end)
I am sure someone else will address this as well, but it comes down to the value of finishers, Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes. Doing a 5 point finisher means your finisher is free because you will always get 25 energy, and you have a 60% chance to get a combo point, this means you get in more Sinister Strikes, which is generally going to be more DPS. Also in your example what you have to factor in is what happens if one of your SS's is dodged, then you lose S&D uptime. A 4 point finisher still gives you an 80% chance to get 25 energy, so an average of 20 energy (15 for 3, 10 for 2, 5 for 1).

Letting S&D drop isn't a good option, and having planned downtime is even worse. You have to remember that Rupture is only a small % of your DPS, and the spreadsheets are designed to model the relative value of increased Rupture uptime versus additional Sinister Strikes etc.

2. on the 1s5r cycle : a 1s finisher lasts for 18.6s when you got the T4 bonus. This means that you got 1.4 s of not having SnD. Does this mean that an extra point in SnD does not make up for the loss in rupture finishers??
Not really, because you forget to factor it 25 energy from Relentless Strikes, an 80% chance you will get atleast 1 additional Combo Point from Ruthlessness, and the fact that you will hit approximately 1 time per second with your off hand, so in 18 seconds you will regen 45-60 energy (on average) from Combat Potency. 1s/5r is only viable with Combat Specs for this reason.

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Old 02/19/08, 9:56 AM   #1504
Hanos
Back in my day...
 
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Troll Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
Quite obviously I was talking about being surprised that GoA + IP was better than just using WF totem for rogue dps. What part of that was unclear?
The part about that statement being completely and utterly wrong. No spreadsheet or current modeling supports that, so I think we are at a bit of a loss regarding where you are coming from.

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Old 02/19/08, 11:38 AM   #1505
hannigaholic
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
According to the DPS Spreadsheet it is in fact better using my gear and a Combat Swords build

--edit--

In fact I've just downloaded the version using the full T6 gear and GoA/IP comes out on top for that also, so I'd appreciate it if you don't assume that I'm basing this on nothing, thank you very much.

That said, the Gear Spreadsheet puts WF totem at around 35dps* higher than the GoA/IP combo so it could just be a glitch in the DPS sheet.


*It's over 100dps higher if you leave both WF/Improved WF turned on, as it was when I downloaded the sheet, and change to Goa/Improved GoA

Last edited by hannigaholic : 02/19/08 at 11:53 AM.

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Old 02/19/08, 11:54 AM   #1506
Latito
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Rogue
 
Lightbringer
You are looking at Unbuffed DPS. Unbuffed doesn't include WF (or GoA) into the calculations, considering you are not a Shaman. It does however include IP, since you give that to yourself.

This problem occurs at least once every couple pages.. someone thinks they made some grand discovery that somehow WF is inferior.. when really they just don't know how to read.

WF > GoA + IP.

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Old 02/19/08, 12:01 PM   #1507
hannigaholic
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Frankly I don't appreciate being told I'm an idiot by people who are too lazy to go and look for themselves. The DPS sheet may well be wrong but buffed dps (unless 1700+dps is suddenly possible unbuffed and has jumped into the buffed dps box) is increased by dropping WF totem.

Go check for yourselves.

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Old 02/19/08, 12:14 PM   #1508
Ashran
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
<RIP>
Eldre'Thalas (EU)
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
Quite obviously I was talking about being surprised that GoA + IP was better than just using WF totem for rogue dps. What part of that was unclear?
A combat sword build (20/41) with 4 points spent in improved and / or vile poisons + considering improved grace air totem leads to this situation in the RogueDPS_2_4_0_3 spreadsheet. There are too many parameters (gear, buff, boss armor...) to give a number, but the increase for my personnal case is about 0.6% buffed.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

- link to Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

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Old 02/19/08, 1:08 PM   #1509
Left
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
According to the DPS Spreadsheet it is in fact better using my gear and a Combat Swords build

--edit--

In fact I've just downloaded the version using the full T6 gear and GoA/IP comes out on top for that also, so I'd appreciate it if you don't assume that I'm basing this on nothing, thank you very much.

That said, the Gear Spreadsheet puts WF totem at around 35dps* higher than the GoA/IP combo so it could just be a glitch in the DPS sheet.


*It's over 100dps higher if you leave both WF/Improved WF turned on, as it was when I downloaded the sheet, and change to Goa/Improved GoA
Turn on one or the other, not both. (IE, use WF or Improved WF, but not both.) The sheet models them as two separate effects, so you are in effect double-dipping those abilities if you have them both turned on. This may help explain your oddball results...

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Old 02/19/08, 1:09 PM   #1510
Trazhenko
Don Flamenco
 
Troll Rogue
 
Illidan
The DPS sheet does indeed say what he says it does, and as he mentioned later, the gear sheet disagrees.

For my gear/spec/typical buffs, changing WF to IP7 and turning on GoA(improved) nets me a whopping 0.29 DPS increase in the buffed DPS column (and +14.45 DPS if I change it to Flametongue, YAY).

However, using the same gear/buffs and making the same change of Wf(improved) -> IP7 and adding imp. GoA nets me a 47 DPS loss on the gear sheet.

I can't say who is wrong, but after raiding on a rogue for almost 3 years, I'm tempted to side with my experience, which says that WF is noticeably better than GoA + IP.

One thing I did notice, is that toggling WF on and off in the DPS sheet only changed the field "other DPS". I'd think that both "melee DPS" and "finisher DPS (i.e. SnD)" would go up when you add WF. Actually, if WF on the DPS sheet was increased by 35% (2pc T6 SnD), it would almost match the gear sheet. I wonder if that's the problem.

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Old 02/19/08, 1:12 PM   #1511
Left
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Darkspear
Although, he's right... oddly enough, IP + GoA comes out as 0.19% ahead of WF in the current version of the DPS spreadsheet using default gear and buffs. Should be even higher for a Mutilate spec. Strange...

EDIT: I'm even showing this for my early T5 gear using the current version of the DPS sheet. Gear sheet has it sitting at ~30 DPS back. Something is funky with the DPS sheet here... either that or we need to re-evaluate all our assumptions.

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Old 02/19/08, 1:18 PM   #1512
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
I spent a few minutes looking at this discrepancy, and there are two fundamental modeling differences between the two sheets. I believe the Gear sheet has the correct behavior (obviously), but perhaps it's worth doing some external testing to verify.

1) The Gear sheet assumes that WF attacks can proc stuff - Mongoose/Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, and the like. Since you are now getting 20% more MH attacks, the proc rate on these goes up and increases your damage slightly.

And, the larger effect:

2) The Gear sheet treats WF as a buff with a duration, and thus increases the AP of a suitable proportion of your other attacks to encompass this fact.

Now, I haven't actually tested either of these lately, so that might be worth doing; but my impression is that this is how it works. Regardless: between these the value of WF is increased by about 30 DPS in the Gear sheet relative to the DPS sheet, which is why one shows IP/GoA as comparable and one does not.

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Old 02/19/08, 3:06 PM   #1513
Fingerlickin
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Llane
Rogue max damage addon

I am fairly new to playing a Rogue but I have a Druid and a Priest that I've had for years and I read these forums quite often. I'm working on an addon for my rogue to make life easier and I have a few questions for you guys. The addon is using the mob's estimated armor from the TargetArmor addon, the mob's debuffs from blizz's api, and the mob's health from the MobHealth addon to calculate Eviserate vs. Envenom damage and display which ability to use. I'm also trying to figure out how to get info from EnhTooltip to override that decision with Rupture if the mob is not immune.

My question is how much armor does a mob need to have to make Envenom more effective than Eviserate? Also, does Envenom gain the full benifet of misery and storm strike?

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Old 02/19/08, 3:28 PM   #1514
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Fingerlickin View Post
My question is how much armor does a mob need to have to make Envenom more effective than Eviserate? Also, does Envenom gain the full benifet of misery and storm strike?
In general, envenom is not used at all. Deadly Poison ticks will give more dps. Envenom is only really used as the last 1% move when deadly poison won't tick through. And on that matter, Evis is also generally not used. If the mob is bleedable, Rupture is used.

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Old 02/19/08, 4:33 PM   #1515
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
1) The Gear sheet assumes that WF attacks can proc stuff - Mongoose/Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, and the like. Since you are now getting 20% more MH attacks, the proc rate on these goes up and increases your damage slightly.

And, the larger effect:

2) The Gear sheet treats WF as a buff with a duration, and thus increases the AP of a suitable proportion of your other attacks to encompass this fact.

Now, I haven't actually tested either of these lately, so that might be worth doing; but my impression is that this is how it works. Regardless: between these the value of WF is increased by about 30 DPS in the Gear sheet relative to the DPS sheet, which is why one shows IP/GoA as comparable and one does not.
My personal spreadsheet does account for 1), but does not account for 2), and still puts Windfury 33 DPS ahead of GoA+IP for my gear/buff setup (early T6+full raid buffs).

I like the DPS spreadsheet, but the idea of it suggesting that GoA is superior in any fashion to Windfury leaves me really scratching my head.

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