Roguecraft 101 - Page 111

Sinsei · 02/27/08, 3:07 PM

Aldriana, what's your take on the 2.4 changes to mutilate 41/20 raid spec(15% more crit on mutilate)? I would think it gives new wind to the Ashtongue Trinket, speculating it would yield a higher uptime and thus making it viable over other trinkets. I know your stance on the Rogue DPS spreadsheet but playing with this new mutilate setup the next stat equivalency would scale crit equal to/slightly higher than hit at some point. Of course it could always be wrong(suggested) =D

Assuming max T6/equivalent gear with the Shard/Tracker dagger combo v/s a combat sword build with infamy/savagery swords.

Edit: I mean, if it's so close within 2-3% buffed dps then choosing via playstyle comes to mind. Assuming Blizzard is done with non-poisonable bosses.

Asherz · 02/27/08, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

Shadowstep is a good idea for rogues that tend to react a bit slower. A combat sword rogue not keeping up with the seven golden rules surely is less effective than a shadowstep rogue caring about those.

The DPS difference is about 15% as stated on page one. So for some rogues the increased survivability (stay out of the f***ing fire) and mobility may actually increase their DPS. On very movement intense fights (Al'ar as example) Shadow Step may result in more damage. The DPS is way lower, but the DPS uptime is increased a lot.

The only fight that I can think of that I'd rather be Shadowstep over Combat is for Archimonde. Even then, if you were to get lucky and have few airbursts and don't get trapped on the wrong side of the fire you could be putting up inferior numbers compared to combat.

We had a rogue go shadowstep for Archmonde last week and although the combat rogues did well over 100dps more than he did, his damage was considerably more than any other melee class. The ability to shadowstep down from an airburst or through fire is key and is the only thing that'd keep a Shadowstep spec'd rogue even with, or ahead of, a combat rogue's damage.

As has been stated before in various threads, any rogue that would see a damage 'gain' from a crutch like cheat death has some other problems going on.

Crackeyez · 02/27/08, 3:47 PM

Which is best with Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality, Vanir's Left Fist of Savagry, Merciless Gladiator's Slicer , Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade: Using Combat Swords, Combat Fist/Sword, or Combat Fists.

I'm sorry I couldn't figure this out on my own... Messed with the rogue spreadsheets for a few hours and still couldn't come up with an answer.

mmartinx · 02/27/08, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by mmaker

Came over this thread when browsing shadowpanther
quoting:

*snip*

"Pool energy.
Don't go over 85 post tick if.

65-85, hit SS right as/before you tick up to 85, might want to use a swing timer to monitor your OH strikes if you get as into it as I am - LD50 Abar is a good one.

60-80, you want to hit it 1 sec before you tick to 100 OR combat potency procs, if you're squeemish about getting this close, just do it as you tick to 80.

*snip*

This gets pretty dicey with the 4/5 T5 bonus, you're a proc and +30/45 energy from chain combat potency procs away from losing a ton of energy. Before I had the bonus I did this quite a bit on fights like Morogrim. The only time I pool my energy now is before cooldowns, I'll get to 60-80 and wait before I'm about to get an energy tick and use blade flurry into either a SS or rupture.

mmartinx · 02/27/08, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by Crackeyez

Which is best with Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality, Vanir's Left Fist of Savagry, Merciless Gladiator's Slicer , Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade: Using Combat Swords, Combat Fist/Sword, or Combat Fists.

I'm sorry I couldn't figure this out on my own... Messed with the rogue spreadsheets for hours and still couldn't come up with an answer.

For hours? Sir, I think its time to find an Excel tutorial. Anyways there's discussion going on in this thread starting about 3 pages back at default PPP Roguecraft 101

Nannou · 02/27/08, 4:02 PM

I've got a question here. I'm currently raiding with my 20/41/0 sword rogue, using talon of azhara in mh and gladiator s1 in oh. But last time I ran BT the swiftsteel bludgeon dropped and I got it for pvp essentially. But now I'm wondering if I would gain or lose dps by replacing my s1 oh with it - while still keeping the same sword spec?

The rogue DPS spreadsheet won't let me test it, so do any of you have any pointers?

saedo · 02/27/08, 4:04 PM

Y45. Change it to maces.

mmartinx · 02/27/08, 4:07 PM

The point of a fist/sword or mace/sword 16/45 build is to enhance your MH white swings and specials through the use of your off hand. The actual damage done by off-hand swings is marginal, and enhancing that specifically is a waste. spec maces if you get your hands on a Syphon, or stick with swords.

Nannou · 02/27/08, 4:13 PM

Yes, I know the points of those builds. But what I'm wondering is if the amount of swordprocs from the oh will make up for the extra dmg/stats on the swiftsteel bludgeon or not. It's got more hit, more ap, more haste etc. But if the amount of procs from sword oh is big enough, then it's obviously the best choice to stay with s1 sword until i get another one.

mmartinx · 02/27/08, 4:21 PM

Yes, absolutely stick with swords

Sinsei · 02/27/08, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by Nannou

Yes, I know the points of those builds. But what I'm wondering is if the amount of swordprocs from the oh will make up for the extra dmg/stats on the swiftsteel bludgeon or not. It's got more hit, more ap, more haste etc. But if the amount of procs from sword oh is big enough, then it's obviously the best choice to stay with s1 sword until i get another one.

Stick with S1 OH.

To be honest the swiftsteel bludgeon is only good for hemo specs. Sword/Sword > Mace/Sword - Fist/Sword > Mace/Mace > Sword/Mace for SS combat specs. But that is all dependant on your current itemisation. Pure specs benefitting from 4/5 vile poisons.

It's a good mace with really good stats I'll give it that. In the end it's still a mace and that being said its the worst weapon type as far as pure damage goes.

If it were me, I would wait for a Blade of Savagery or grind S2(S3 if able) sword OH.

Crackeyez · 02/27/08, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by mmartinx

For hours? Sir, I think its time to find an Excel tutorial. Anyways there's discussion going on in this thread starting about 3 pages back at default PPP Roguecraft 101

The questions they address aren't exactly the same as mine and I would prefer a simple "go combat fists" or something.

Edit: Anyone?

Sparks · 02/27/08, 5:04 PM

Hi, long time reader, first time poster here. While on the PTR, I was goofing off with the stat stacking bug. Got to about 1700% dodge and started tanking things. However, I noticed that something very interesting. Monsters were landing attacks against me every now and then. After some investigation, it seems that players cannot dodge from behind. I've tested this by leaving my back to a level 61 sporebat, and surely enough, the sporebat was hitting me. I haven't gotten the chance to test if mobs can dodge from behind since the servers are down right now, but if they can't, the value of expertise has just dropped a lot. I'll try it against the spirits in DM north later.

• Shalas · 02/27/08, 5:21 PM

Mobs can dodge from behind, players cannot. You don't really need to abuse bugs to prove this.

neg^ · 02/27/08, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Sparks

Hi, long time reader, first time poster here. While on the PTR, I was goofing off with the stat stacking bug. Got to about 1700% dodge and started tanking things. However, I noticed that something very interesting. Monsters were landing attacks against me every now and then. After some investigation, it seems that players cannot dodge from behind. I've tested this by leaving my back to a level 61 sporebat, and surely enough, the sporebat was hitting me. I haven't gotten the chance to test if mobs can dodge from behind since the servers are down right now, but if they can't, the value of expertise has just dropped a lot. I'll try it against the spirits in DM north later.

Different mechanic for mobs and players. Check the wws logs of any static fight and you'll see some dodges in the melee miss breakdown. Players can't dodge from behind which is why I hope you see your tanks strafing or walking backwards to move mobs in position if need be.