tetracycloide

Actually I used CoD from a naked lock as an extream example to illustrate the point. In reality the RDPS lost is several orders of magnitude higher because a raid that has enough locks for anyone to actually use CoD instead of elements, shadow, and recklessness is rare and the utility curses provide hundreds of RDPS, not tens of RDPS.

My vanity is justified.

 

koaschten

I'd rather say if you are not running 4 locks you are better off with mindnumbing because you either loose Shadows, Elements or Recklessness, which is a far bigger impact on raid dps.

 

• Aldriana

So, the challenge with this is that it depends heavily on your gear, spec, and buffs, such that coming up with a general number is actually quite challenging.

In terms of a ballpark figure - I'm going to use my own gear as an example, which I imagine isn't too atypical of rogues on Brutallus. Some of you lucky bastards of course have Warglaives which will reduce the number of procs observed (due to the slowness of the weapon) but I imagine we'll still be in the same neck of the woods.

So, lets see. I have 256 hit rating and 22 expertise, 17 passive haste rating, and 2/5 T6 set bonus. This means each white attack expects to hit a little over 92% of the time.

Buffwise, the melee group in my guild tends to have 3 drums in it, so we need to add 60 average-case haste rating for that; Haste Potions used every cool is another 50; and the average uptime of my DST gives another 80 or so haste rating on top of that; thus, my total effective haste rating is about 207, which works out to about 13% haste. We then factor is 35% haste from SnD, Mongoose Procs, Blade Flurry, and, oh, say, 2 heroisms. Crunching the numbers a bit gives us an estimated 435 OH attacks over the course of the fight. From there, it's a simple matter to estimate the number of those attacks that proc combat potency - on average, there should be about 401 OH hits and thus about 80 combat potency procs. But what's the reasonable variance here?

Well, to do this right, we'd have to propagate uncertainty through every step of the above calculation - which is a serious pain. But, I'm going to guess that the bulk of the variance is in that last step, and come up with a range on that; doing so, we find that 95% (or so) of the time, I'd expect to see between 64 and 96 Combat Potency procs.

So, that's the easy calculation. Next the hard ones. Doing the same calculation as we did above for the OH, we find that we expect to get about 235 MH autoattacks, which will generate about 43 WF procs (but that's not the final answer for WF; keep reading). Additionally, with the 3600 base energy regen for a 6 minute fight, plus the 1200 (or so) more we got from Combat Potency, we have about 4800 energy to spend, which works out to about 120 SS - exact number depends on which cycle one is running. So we have a grand total of 120 yellow attacks and 723 white attacks so far, which, between them, will generate around 39 sword spec procs - which, in turn, will generate about another 7 WF procs.

Thus, all in all, we expect to have "about" 80 combat potency procs, 50 WF procs, and 40 Sword Spec procs over the course of the fight. But all these numbers are highly interrelated and, as such, have quite a bit of variance associated with them. Also note that the answer is fairly heavily subject to gear and buffs. But in terms of a ballpark figure, this probably isn't too far off.

 

madman

According to the rumors about S4, it seems that the arena offhands do not have any rating requirement.

Season 4 on PTRs

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...quickblade.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...l/s4w_shiv.jpg

If that is correct, there is a huge upgrade for most combat rogues to be had for a mere 1125 arena points.

 

• Aldriana

I'm not sure how "Huge" it really is, honestly. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's certainly a nice weapon, but when you look at the big picture: the DPS stats on the OHs haven't really changed much since season 2. Mostly what you're getting by upgrading your OH is a higher damage OH with slightly better stats and the same speed. And as it turns out, damage on your OH weapon is one of the least important stats there is. So, it's a decent upgrade - say, 25 EP over season 3 and about 60 relative to Season 2 or Talonblade - and if it turns out to be obtainable for only 1125 honor, I imagine a fair number of people will go for it. But on the grand scale of upgrades, it's not quite into the territory I'd call "huge". Nice, certainly. Depending on what you're using, "large", even. But it's not an earthshaking upgrade on the level of DST, Warglaives, or 3/4 of the stuff in Sunwell.

 

saedo

[Blade of Savagery] still trumps it. And if the rumors are based on that pic, then the Slicer doesn't need rating requirements either.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...s4w_slicer.jpg

Don't think any of the pics have rating requirements on them. It'll probably be like S3 was, Weapon Rating applies to all weapons, main/off/2H, which was said to be 2050.

 

madman

It is not based on the pics, it is based on the text on that page:

The Blade of Savagery might be better, I haven't checked the spreadsheets.. but after all it is a drop that you never know when you will get, and not every guild is in BT yet. So I imagine a lot of rogues will get a much awaited OH upgrade if this information is correct. I sure will.

Aldriana: Sure, it may not be enormous.. but it will only take a few weeks of arena, even if you lose, so I imagine most combat rogues who have not been in BT would be wise to get it before any other arena gear. And raiding rogues in that situation who don't do arena, should do it to get this.

Just trying to spread the word.. though ofc I'm not 100% sure this info is correct yet.

 

tetracycloide

Considering it is blizzard's language we are talking about it is less than clear but 'Off-Hand' items are classed completely differently than weapons that can only be used in the off-hand. Given the current and previous structures of the arena gear system, the auction house, and item naming conventions pulled from data mining it is most likely that weapons that can only be used in the off-hand will fall under the 'weapons' designation of personal rating requirements and not the 'off-hand' designation.

My vanity is justified.

 

madman

Good point. That could be... I hope not though. It would be nice to finally be able to upgrade my S2 OH dagger... because there are no alternatives atm. That 1.50 speed badge dagger is not an uprade

 

• Latito

I would note this to be exceptionally accurate when comparing it to my findings in studying some Brutallus parses. You can also calculate the *exact* expected number of SS/WF/Cpots procs you should have expected, given your own actual results. I put together a screenshot of WWS from a kill a couple weeks ago:



So, in the bottom image, add up Nrm, Crit, Glanc and All Mss in the Nb row. You should get 241 + 263 + 175 27 = 706 attacks. WWS's "landed" column is just hits + glances, not crits. Adjust for WF and SS attacks, so 706 - 45 - 36 = 625 auto attacks. Now, 3.8% of those missed, so multiply 625 * (1 - 0.038) = 601 landed auto attacks. This assumes 3 of your SS/WF attacks missed (also roughly 3.8% of 45 + 36..). Now we need to split those into MH and OH attacks. I am assuming you have an identical landed rate for each hand - not entirely accurate but you cannot tell by WWS which hand is attacking when its a miss.. so we'll just have to go with this.

I have a 2.6spd MH and 1.4spd OH. Therefore, my MH will account for 1.4 / (2.6 + 1.4) % of the attacks, the OH for 2.6 / ( 2.6 + 1.4) % of the attacks. This works out to 35 and 65%. Since haste effects both weapons equally this is a reasonably valid assumption. 35% of 601 landed attacks is 210 landed MH attacks. 65% of 601 is 391 landed OH attacks. 391 * 0.2 = 78 expected Combat Potency procs. Considering I had an actual of 77.. not bad.

Back to the 210 landed MH attacks. Add in the 36 sword spec attacks and you have 246 swings which could potentially proc a WF attack. However, since 3.8% of those SS attacks actually missed, its more like 245. 245 * 0.2 = 49 expected WF attacks. I was a bit low at 45 - perhaps my Shaman missed some twists, or I just got a hair unlucky.

610 landed auto attacks + 45 WF attacks (subtract 2 from the WF since 3.8% them misses). Add in the 72 SS hits and 41 SS crits to get a total of 610 + 43 + 72 + 41 = 766 attacks which can potentially proc sword spec. Technically rupture can as well, so thats maybe another half a proc. 766 * 0.05 = 38.3 expected Sword spec procs. Looks like I scored a bit low on all 3 areas (and hey look.. my crit was only ~36.5.. it should be around 40), ended up at 2400 dps w/o a MH glaive.

Its not exactly scientific, but it might give you a closer idea as to how lucky you got with procs.

 

Nock

Thanks Aldriana, that's exactly what I was looking for. I thought you might take a different approach with it in regards to the haste procs which would make it harder, but I was able to follow all of that pretty well and should be able to work out some numbers for different speeds of weapons.

On a related note, I thought that they changed sword spec to only proc off of white attacks some time ago, did that not ever happen? I apologize if I missed some information stating otherwise.

 

• Aldriana

Windfury was changed to be white attacks only a couple patches back; as far as I know Sword Spec still procs off everything.

 

ripcurl82

Can anyone post what gear a rogue needs to tank Mother Sharaz? I hear alot of dodge and agility any specifics?

 

saedo

I'd assume 102.4% passive avoidance (sum total of dodge, parry, and boss miss rate).

 

• Vulajin

Although rogue tanking is a fun and interesting gimmick, this is not the thread to discuss it. You should check out this thread, where there has been discussion of that topic: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16211-t...100_avoidence/

 

hordminion

Does the talent Imp faerie fire work on bosses? if it does can you please include it into the hit cap section. Thank you!

 

• Vulajin

It does and it has been incorporated into the forthcoming article for the Theorycrafting Think Tank.

 

hordminion

thanks vul. another question. what would hit cap be then? i dont really feel like doing the math :P

 

drumbum

The S4 weapons definitely *DO* have an arena rating requirement of 2050. This is 100% certain. When the blue poster said that "off-hands" do not have an arena requirement, s/he is specifically referring only to caster off-hands.

 

Tryss

28% - 5% from Precision, 3% from IFF, 20% from gear. 15.77 hit rating per 1%.

Do the math.

 

Butaka

I'm a fairly regular reader here on the forums of EJ; however, this is my first time posting. Anywho, the question I have is this: according to Aldriana's spreadsheet, [Ring of Lethality] is a slight up grade (DPS-wise) to [Band of the Eternal Champion]. I was wondering if Aldriana's spreadsheet calculated in the proc rate on [Band of the Eternal Champion] though, or if it was just the base stats. I know I've read the majority of posts on this forum and never recall seeing anything regarding this topic. Thanks in advance for your help.
Butaka, 70 Troll Rogue, Khadgar

 

• Vulajin

Questions specific to the gear sheet would be better asked in that thread in the future, but the answer to your question is that yes, the proc is accounted for. In general the gear sheet accounts for most procs on most items, so when it makes a recommendation, that recommendation includes the proc. (edit - To state that more usefully, I'm pretty sure all procs on gear that a rogue would reasonably consider wearing for best raid DPS are accommodated.)

 

misada

can anyone confirm with 100% certainty that sword specialization's proc from offhand will affect your mainhand's hit? specifically if you use fist/mace mainhand and sword offhand, will the extra hit proc'd from your offhand give your mainhand the swing? was going through my combat log and my mh hits for about twice as much as my oh, yet the next 2 damage numbers in my log aren't always 2 of the higher value not counting ones that have modifiers such as (glancing) (critical)

 

• Vulajin

Yes, I re-tested this not two weeks ago at the prompting of another rogue friend of mine. The combat log always displays the "You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization" note immediately preceding the hit that causes the proc. The sword spec swing itself comes last. So for example:

You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
Your melee swing hits Some Douche for 234. (off hand swing that procced sword spec)
Your melee swing hits Some Douche for 564. (main hand swing from sword spec)
Your melee swing hits Some Douche for 535. (regularly scheduled main hand swing)

 

woodrow

The World of Warcraft Armory
Is direct link to armory , Ive used the spreedsheet to the best of my ability, also read through the stickies @ the front of the forums, but maybe im missing something. normaly alone in a raid "10 man" no shammy etc. i only average 600ish dps. odd imo. yeah i use +120 hit food. and i try to max out my hit towards around 350ish. At the moment im only geared enough for SSC and some MH trash possibly. does a rogue need to get close to 350 NOW @ this level or work on it as a progression type hit+. the spreedsheet always suggest + 10 hit gems in pretty much all socketed gear. Please elaborate ? lol thanks tho in advance.