• Vulajin

I'm pretty confident in the accuracy of my spreadsheet. Note that I exclude the effect the Hemo debuff has on the rogue's personal DPS, because I'm already calculating the total DPS provided by the debuff as part of the rogue's DPS. Regardless of whether the rogue or someone else is consuming the debuff, as long as it gets fully consumed, the total DPS yielded will be a certain amount.

If you'd like to take a look at my sheet and confirm its accuracy, send me a PM and I'll be happy to e-mail it to you. I would already have released it publicly, but I don't consider it fit for public consumption yet (the UI is still not fully functional). When it does reach that point, especially since the DPS spreadsheet doesn't currently have an author, I'll probably release mine.

 

sp00n

Ah I see. The numbers make more sense then.


Again, not trying to disregard or disrespect you and your work, but do we really need a third spreadsheet for the rogue class? Seeing how much the DPS spreadsheet has evolved and what features it offers (gear upgrades, cycle recommendations, AEP calculations, gem upgrades, etc), does your spreadsheet bring something new to the table? Did you manage to circumvent any of the stumbling blocks, errors, mistakes (seal fate comes to mind)?

Honestly speaking, wouldn't it be better if you focused your energy on maintaining the existing DPS spreadsheet (which is now without an author as you have noticed), instead of trying to re-invent the wheel (a third time)?

Again, I appreciate every work and theorycraft for the rogue class, especially such a complicated task as writing a spreadsheet, I am just wondering if this is the right approach.

 

• Vulajin

Well, the story of why I wrote my spreadsheet is a bit off-topic, but since you asked, I'll answer. This should clear up any confusion about my intentions.

Initially my issue was with the accuracy of CP cycle models in other sheets. It's not that the other sheets don't have good models, but that they couldn't answer the particular questions I had. Specifically, what is the effect of the overall cycle DPS of the chance that procs don't occur? In a typical Xs/5r cycle, there is a chance the Slice doesn't proc Relentless Strikes, and a chance either finisher doesn't proc Ruthlessness. I wanted to have a more exact value for Slice uptime, factoring these things in. Both other spreadsheets, I believe, would calculate Slice uptime at ~100% for 2s/5r with T4 2pc. This is accurate in a sense, but if Slice ever drops (in the situation of no-procs, for example), then your average Slice uptime cannot possibly be 100%.

My second issue had to do with the lack of freedom in cycle selection in the other sheets. I really wanted to be able to enter literally any cycle in my sheet, and compare it accurately against other cycles. For this, I needed more than just Slice uptime and Rupture uptime; I needed to know exact values for white DPS (to figure out the DPS contribution of Slice) and for special attacks (both Sinister Strike/Backstab and finishers). So I implemented calculations for these things.

Another thing I needed to know was my energy contribution from Combat Potency. This was a function of several haste effects, such as Mongoose, which is a 2% haste proc with no internal cooldown. Haste procs with no internal cooldowns, under the old way of thinking (in which haste increased PPM effects), have circular effects. Thus, I needed to create a special model for these things; so I did. I went ahead and added models for DST, TSD, Dragonstrike, and others. I made all these calculations intentionally circular along with my cycle calculations, to ensure that any self-increasing effects (like haste procs w/o internal cooldowns) were modeled appropriately.

At this point I realized that I had large portions of the work for an honest-to-goodness DPS spreadsheet done. As a result, whenever a new question arose for which I needed a suitable answer, I would implement it in my own sheet and use that to provide the answer. Some examples of the questions I addressed are: raid Hemo builds, Shiv spam builds, how RED compared to TSD (when patch 2.2 was looming), and how Eviscerate cycles would compare to Rupture with 3/3 Imp Evis, 3/3 Aggression, and T5 2pc. Eventually I also decided that I liked my sheet enough to use seriously (i.e. to consult for gear and buff choices). So I took an hour here and there and added a full gear/buff selection sheet (the gear mostly has yet to be populated, though).

At this point after several months of using it to answer questions I felt couldn't be answered adequately to the degree of exactness I desired by the other sheets, it has approached the point of being roughly a duplicate of the same. Still, it has served me quite well -- most of the conclusions in the first post of this thread were made using my spreadsheet, and I'm pretty confident in their correctness.

If you ask whether I feel I've wasted my time, my answer would be no. Although the questions I initially asked when writing this spreadsheet have been answered or, in some cases, rendered obsolete (read: haste doesn't increase BC PPM effects), they were still important questions to ask at one time, and therefore the sheet has meaning. And for the record, I do still use it for all of my personal DPS questions.

Anyway. Sorry for the horribly off-topic rant. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss it further.

 

aleyro

(This seemed like the most appropriate thread for this comment; if not, I apologize.)

It seems as though as of patch 2.3, there will be a "build progression" that corresponds to the natural gear progression that exists in the raiding environment. Specifically:

Up to entry level t5 content, mutilate seems to be an accessible, effective build. There are 3 kara daggers available, and a mix of kara gear, badge gear, and heroic purples can easily give you the stats needed to support mutilate.

As long as you have the 4pc t4 bonus, you can experiment with deep sub builds that include active aggro reduction (shadow step) and death avoidance (cheat death).

Once you move beyond the t4 set bonus, you can transition to pure combat builds to maximize your dps output. Initially, that will probably be combat swords, eventually, that could switch to combat maces.

Basically, the best build is highly dependant on the gear available to you and the content you are facing, and there seems to be a smooth, planned transition layed out as you move through content.

 

Walkertr

With the changes coming in 2.3 to weapon skill i have been wondering lately how effective expertise would actually be. Most spreadsheets that i see show it to be on par with hit rating. However from my point of view as a rogue, most of the time we should be attacking mobs from behind to avoid the parry causing a tank to be killed. And if your not able to be parried or dodged from the mob then doesnt that effectivly make expertise at best situationally dependant and worthless in all but a few cases.

 

ake

Has anyone done any research as to whether Mace/Sword in 2.3 will be as viable as Fist/Sword is today?

It just seems that it might be a reasonable pve/pvp hybrid if it works out.

 

Katria

Weapon skill will reduce your target's dodge and parry at the same rate hit rating increases your hit (more or less). 16 weapon skill = -1% dodge and -1% parry for the mob. They can't parry from behind, but they can dodge. This has the added bonus of insuring that your yellow damage isn't dodged, which makes it slightly better than +1% hit.

The fact that it also reduces %parry for the mob is just gravy for when you aren't behind them for some reason.

 

Rerolled

Mobs can dodge from behind. (Maybe this should be explicitly stated in the first post?)

 

• Vulajin

Answers to both of these questions are in the first post under "Preliminary 2.3 Information."

I don't believe that Blizzard had such foresight when they planned BC itemization for rogues, nor do I believe your assessment of the viability of builds is accurate. Notably, deep sub builds will always be terrible for DPS, no matter what gear level. Combat swords is always a top flight DPS option, regardless of gear level.

I'd rather not clutter up the first post with a ton of stuff that's general to all classes. There is a combat mechanics thread somewhere on the boards...I'll try to dig it up.

 

Ashersky

Is it safe to assume we should apply the EP system to leg armor selection as well?

I assume Nethercobra Leg Armor > Cobrahide Leg Armor > Nethercleft Leg Armor > Clefthide Leg Armor based on the following (fist/sword buffed numbers used). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Nethercobra Leg Armor
+50 AP
+12 Crit Strike Rating

50 EP + 20.52 EP (12 * 1.71) = 70.52 EP

Cobrahide Leg Armor
+40 AP
+10 Crit Strike Rating

40 EP + 17.1 EP (10 * 1.71) = 57.1 EP

Nethercleft Leg Armor
+40 Stamina
+12 Agility

0 EP + 26.16 EP (12 * 2.18) = 26.16 EP

Clefthide Leg Armor
+30 Stamina
+10 Agility

0 EP + 21.8 EP (10 * 2.18) = 21.8 EP

Not sure if Leg Armor warrants its own section in the post, but a sentence under "self-buffs" much like the drums explanation may be useful.

 

Oscarvil

Is it really necessary to spell out every little detail such as EP for leg armour where it is obvious which is the optimum choice?

There is pretty much one set of enchants which are optimal for rogues (with a couple of exceptions) in PvE. The CE head enchant, the Aldor shoulder enchant (very small difference in EP between this and the Scryer enchant as detailed in the OP), +6 stats to chest, +12 agi to cloak, +24 AP to bracer, +15 agi to gloves, Nethercobra armour for legs and Cat's Swiftness to boots. There is benefit on sustained fights to choosing +12 agi to boots over run speed increase but the others really should be a no-brainer.

It is understandable that gems may need more explanation due to the fact there are 3 types of gem which change in relative power as gear progresses but this is not the case for leg enchants where 10 seconds thought on the topic makes clear that the Nethercobra is the best by far.

EP is supposed to be used to weight similar power items for optimum choice, there is no question which of the four leg armours is the most powerful so including a section on EP detailing the obvious seems like a waste of time.

 

Dontmindme

That said, it might be a good idea to say "These are the optimum enchants:" as you stated above with a brief blurb about the couple that are arguable. I think every rogue had to at one point look up all the enchants and find the good ones. Seems a perfect section to Roguecraft 101. That said, I agree that its unnecessary to mention the poor options just as its unnecessary to mention which are the best green gems.

 

• Vulajin

There is already a section differentiating between enchants for any slots with two seriously competing choices. Though [Nethercleft Leg Armor] is very nice, no DPS-minded rogue should really have any trouble deciding whether those or [Nethercobra Leg Armor] are superior DPS.

 

tymoney321

So with the changes to expertise, It has come to my understanding that Belt of One-Hundred Deaths will become the best in the game. It happened to drop today and no rogue really wanted it so I was awarded it. My question is, pre-patch is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] currently better than [Belt of Deep Shadow]. I know it doesn't matter since 2.3 will change things, but thats not for another couple weeks and I want to maximize my dps for the time being.

 

Azaziel

Yes the one-hundred deaths is better.

 

Drunk

Go for the one hundred deaths, even pre-2.3 it is better and your rogues needs to l2read

 

• Latito

A Note on the Expertise stuff in regards to -parry.. Nearly every boss out there has some sort of "Cast on a random raid member" ability. Considering the raid is by-and-large behind the boss, the boss will spin around and cast it on the player. During this brief time you WILL be able to parry. Rage and his Ice thing, Anetheron and Infernals + Carrion, Archimonde and Grip + Burst, Teron is always spinning around, etc. While not a huge difference, or even a big effect on your dps.. its probably worth noting. I wouldn't change the value of expertise to be any higher than it is now (10% better than hit).. but its something to remember in the back of your mind I'd think.. for those who like to nit-pick every detail at least :P

 

Ricard

I've been following this thread and I hope that this hasn't been mentioned yet, but has anyone considered the human racial in respect to either mace/mace or mace/sword? As I understand it, it's going to add 1% crit chance to hits with maces. Would that make it more valuable? To have that 1% crit in addition to the OH sword procs and the MH crit damage with maces increase?

 

sp00n

In terms of nitpicking, certain casts also prevent the mobs from dodging and parrying.

 

• Vulajin

The human racials also add 1% crit to swords, so the relative difference is probably not going to change much.

 

• Latito

Granted, but I know I see Parry ever now and then on bosses when they spin around... the no dodge/parry while casting, yet I see parries puzzles me..

Its not like I'm standing in front of the boss, I get like 0.2% parry or something on WWS for those bosses and all the melee are similar *shrug*

 

Grunge

I think only casted and channeled spells prevent parry? Some bosses have instant abilities (Teron Incinerate, Shadowbolts also I think?), in which they turn and at that short time it's possible to get a parry or two?

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Ricard

Aye, but I was referring to the difference between maces/swords and fists/swords. Seeing as maces gets 1% chance to crit as well as 5% increased crit damage, whereas fists only get 5% increased chance to crit.

 

Busko

Hi i was checking out the post real nice ^^ learn something new each day .

But i was wondering what is your thought on armor penetration stuff.

 

Lavery

There's a point for point comparison of Armor Penetration to other stats in the first post.