It means you build 3 combo points, cast Slice and Dice, build 5 combo points, cast Rupture, then build 3 combo points and refresh slice and dice, so on and so forth.
Which means Rupture is not constantly up, or do you actually manage to keep it going all the time?I have serious problems doing that with 3s/5r.
Also, i was wondering whether Swords do scale much better with raid buffs than daggers do.When i go (unbuffed) and attack the Ogre Spirits in Dire Maul with Daggers i usually do ~100 dps more than when i do the same with sword spec.
I am using a Shard of Azzinoth/Trackers Blade for Dagger Spec and BoI/BoS for Sword spec.
I am wondering this because my guild of course urges me to stay sword specced, i do understand that on trash, but on bosses i am not all too sure if its the right choice.
I have screenshots from Teronfights where i do about 400 dps less with Daggers than i do now with Swords.That time when i was using Daggers i had zero T6, a warrior in group and only BoM from paladins.
I was using Boundless Agony and WSC though and he is a low armor mob, but now i have 6 T6, had a warrior and enhancement shaman and BoK/BoM.
I am mostly doing 1500-1800 DPS sword specced and since we are moving towards Brutallus i am wondering if i would not indeed be better with Daggers, since i still do unbuffed better DPS using Daggers on those Ogre Spirits.
No, 3s/5r will not sustain 100% Rupture uptime. 100% Rupture uptime isn't really a realistic goal for any cycle anyway, so don't concern yourself too much about it.
There are many problems trying to compare unbuffed DPS against a level 60 target with buffed DPS against a boss-level target. Suffice it to say that you will not achieve superior DPS to combat swords unless you're doing something wrong.
When I use AR - I often stumble on rupture still being applied and SnD still up but my energy stocking up to 100, in this situation is it better to dump a 5cp SnD (to renew) or do a evisc? (I have the 2 tier 4 bonus)
Also, When using blade flurry on AOE pulls (like MH trash) is it better to use evisc since you get it "twice" when it hits the other mob?
Yesterday I received the fists of fury set and respecced fists - Today I tried the DPS on the gordok spirits and over the course of ten minutes, I landed at 1003 DPS, thats 260 DPS more than the spreadsheet tells me I'm supposed to do, is that a sign of something good or is it just expectable?
(Armory shows skybreaker whip, I normally use SoC)
I usually time AR right before I use a 3-4 point SND, after that I do a quick 5 point rupture, get another 5 point eviscerate and still manage to refresh a 3-4 point SND, with some lucky procs it won't mess with my cycle any more than that.
When using BF on multiple mobs, of course eviscerate is better because it is double the dmg. Simply put crit evis is better than rupture.
I have a question. I've noticed that lately many rogues are using mutilate for high-end content (by which I mean Sunwell).
I left mutilate behind after Karazhan, and have been combat swords ever since.
However now that I'm working on Sunwell (Just Kalecgos attempts so far), I'm wondering if all these rogues using a mutilate build in there know something I don't.
I have pretty good swords (Infamy/S2 quickblade), but I also have decent daggers (boundless agony/messenger of fate) so I don't think there's any reason as a non-human for me to prefer one build over the other from a weapons perspective at the moment.
Has mutilate at the t6 level finally caught up with combat swords?
I'd greatly appreciate input from someone else at the t6 level who may have experience with these builds.
I'm in early T6, not late T6, so I don't have the advantage of full T6 gear to look at. However, I have been playing Mutilate recently because (a) I have better weapons for it, and (b) I enjoy it. It is competitive with CSwords, although it certainly does not beat them straight up. Here is what I see in the build:
Advantages
Quicker cycles
It only takes a single attack to get fully back into your regular cycle, which means on interrupted fights it is easier to get into a rhythm again
More relaxed cycles
Because of the insane combo point generation, you end up clipping SnD earlier and also getting a higher Rupture uptime. It's easier, in my opinion, to maintain 100% SnD uptime. Also, your primary move costs more and you have less overall energy, so you aren't mashing buttons as fast as in a combat build.
+20% boost to incoming heals
This makes you a lot more survivable on heavy raid damage content. (For my level of progression, this means Naj'entus, Gorefiend, Azgalor, etc.)
+15% move speed
This is useful for interrupted fights or moving between targets on trash, as well as for getting out of AOE.
Disadvantages
Not as much damage as CSwords
Under pretty much all buff sets, Mutilate lags 3-5% behind Combat Swords in a pure DPS burn type fight. EG, if you can do 2100 DPS as Combat Swords, expect to do 2000 as Mutilate. (This difference fades a bit, though, in interrupted fights.)
Lack of cooldowns
Combat has Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry; Mutilate has only Cold Blood. This makes it harder to turn on the burst with Mutilate.
No Blade Flurry
This means AOE pulls allow your combat friends to get ahead. But trash is trash anyway, I suppose
Poison and positional requirements
The poison thing isn't much of an issue anymore, as almost everything is poisonable (even nature-type elementals in BT, to my surprise). However, in interrupted fights, reapplying poison is annoying. Positional requirements are worse, though, especially for trash. I often find myself orbiting a target trying to find its back among all the other mobs and spell effects, losing out on yellow DPS in the meantime as I keep seeing "you must be behind your target". The positional thing can also throw you off for bosses that turn a lot to cast, or even for bosses where you have to occasionally move to the sides to get out of AOE.
At the moment, I'm sticking with Mutilate because I like the challenge of it, but if I get a Blade of Infamy I may very well respec back.
So I was reading the guide concerning Combat-spec'd gemming, and had a question regarding it.
Here's what I have currently:
2 Rigid Lionseye (10 hit)
3 Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)
1 Bright Crimson Spinel (20 AP)
1 Glinting Pyrestone (5 hit / 5 agi)
1 Crimson Sun (24 AP)
1 Stone of Blades (12 Crit)
Which gives me a total of 25 Hit rating, 2.03% crit rating, and 49 AP.
However, according to the guide, Smooth Lionseye are wrong (and Stone of Blades by extension) and Bright Crimson Spinel isn't mentioned either way. Thus, to follow the guide, I'd regem in a few places, and end up with 6 Rigid Lionseye and 3 Glinting Pyrestone.
I'd end up with a total 75 Hit Rating (putting me a mere 13 points from the cap of 363), .679% crit rating, and 15 AP. I understand the importance of hit rating, but I'd be losing 1.40% Crit and 34 AP.
Is this *actually* going to increase my DPS, with the loss of so much crit and AP?
Your entire question can be answered in the very first post of this thread. Take the EP values for your particular build and level of content and weigh the AEP total in gem set #1 versus gem set #2. You could also use a spreadsheet to calculate a potentially more exact answer to this question by switching gem sets there.
The short answer however, is yes, you will gain DPS by regemming properly.
I'm in early T6, not late T6, so I don't have the advantage of full T6 gear to look at. However, I have been playing Mutilate recently because (a) I have better weapons for it, and (b) I enjoy it. It is competitive with CSwords, although it certainly does not beat them straight up. Here is what I see in the build:
Advantages
Quicker cycles
It only takes a single attack to get fully back into your regular cycle, which means on interrupted fights it is easier to get into a rhythm again
More relaxed cycles
Because of the insane combo point generation, you end up clipping SnD earlier and also getting a higher Rupture uptime. It's easier, in my opinion, to maintain 100% SnD uptime. Also, your primary move costs more and you have less overall energy, so you aren't mashing buttons as fast as in a combat build.
+20% boost to incoming heals
This makes you a lot more survivable on heavy raid damage content. (For my level of progression, this means Naj'entus, Gorefiend, Azgalor, etc.)
+15% move speed
This is useful for interrupted fights or moving between targets on trash, as well as for getting out of AOE.
Disadvantages
Not as much damage as CSwords
Under pretty much all buff sets, Mutilate lags 3-5% behind Combat Swords in a pure DPS burn type fight. EG, if you can do 2100 DPS as Combat Swords, expect to do 2000 as Mutilate. (This difference fades a bit, though, in interrupted fights.)
Lack of cooldowns
Combat has Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry; Mutilate has only Cold Blood. This makes it harder to turn on the burst with Mutilate.
No Blade Flurry
This means AOE pulls allow your combat friends to get ahead. But trash is trash anyway, I suppose
Poison and positional requirements
The poison thing isn't much of an issue anymore, as almost everything is poisonable (even nature-type elementals in BT, to my surprise). However, in interrupted fights, reapplying poison is annoying. Positional requirements are worse, though, especially for trash. I often find myself orbiting a target trying to find its back among all the other mobs and spell effects, losing out on yellow DPS in the meantime as I keep seeing "you must be behind your target". The positional thing can also throw you off for bosses that turn a lot to cast, or even for bosses where you have to occasionally move to the sides to get out of AOE.
At the moment, I'm sticking with Mutilate because I like the challenge of it, but if I get a Blade of Infamy I may very well respec back.
Thanks for the information!
I'm sticking with combat swords, I've just seen so many WWS parses from Sunwell involving mutilate builds that I was getting a little paranoid that I'd missed something somewhere.
Apparently it's just the fun factor of using a different playstyle (Mutilate IS fun to play).
Originally Posted by Beleynn
So I was reading the guide concerning Combat-spec'd gemming, and had a question regarding it.
Here's what I have currently:
2 Rigid Lionseye (10 hit)
3 Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)
1 Bright Crimson Spinel (20 AP)
1 Glinting Pyrestone (5 hit / 5 agi)
1 Crimson Sun (24 AP)
1 Stone of Blades (12 Crit)
Which gives me a total of 25 Hit rating, 2.03% crit rating, and 49 AP.
However, according to the guide, Smooth Lionseye are wrong (and Stone of Blades by extension) and Bright Crimson Spinel isn't mentioned either way. Thus, to follow the guide, I'd regem in a few places, and end up with 6 Rigid Lionseye and 3 Glinting Pyrestone.
I'd end up with a total 75 Hit Rating (putting me a mere 13 points from the cap of 363), .679% crit rating, and 15 AP. I understand the importance of hit rating, but I'd be losing 1.40% Crit and 34 AP.
Is this *actually* going to increase my DPS, with the loss of so much crit and AP?
I took a look at your armory sheet, and if you are buying those gems with badges I'd skip regemming until you have the badge chest + legs. Those will give you a big DPS boost.
While the hit gems will give you the highest DPS gain on bosses right up to the cap, if you are concerned with your performance on trash, you might want to use glinting gems (hit/agi) to keep from going so close to the cap that you have over 100% hit on non-boss targets. Normally only damage on bosses is what really matters, but if your guild is ignorant and likes to judge you based on trash meters that may be an issue for you.
Also, on a side note: Scopes only increase damage on ranged attacks and are a waste of money.
Anyone have the actual math supporting an improved Expose Armor rogue in raids? (Drop 2 points from vile poisons).
I know many guilds already use this for brutallus, with only a 1-2% personal loss to a rogue that simply replaces rupture with expose, you practically give your raid a second blood frenzy.
At the moment, the main concern is the TPS loss from devastate losing the extra damage. (I guess this is the main math that would be interesting)
Anyone have the actual math supporting an improved Expose Armor rogue in raids? (Drop 2 points from vile poisons).
I know many guilds already use this for brutallus, with only a 1-2% personal loss to a rogue that simply replaces rupture with expose, you practically give your raid a second blood frenzy.
At the moment, the main concern is the TPS loss from devastate losing the extra damage. (I guess this is the main math that would be interesting)
Thanks in advance =)
I do believe that was just discussed a page or two back.
I took a look at your armory sheet, and if you are buying those gems with badges I'd skip regemming until you have the badge chest + legs. Those will give you a big DPS boost.
I'm working towards the badge chest & legs now, and using cash from dailies (and badges from alts) for the gems, so regemming isn't a big deal I also have a yellow and an orange in the bank from Mag last week.
but if your guild is ignorant and likes to judge you based on trash meters
Fortunately, we aren't. Bosses are the only thing I'm concerned about. Not that it really matters to the question at hand, but for the record, I'm the officer in charge of posting and reviewing WWS reports.
At any rate, thanks for the advice, I'll regem ASAP.
As a side note, I would like an opinion on keeping a second set of gear for soloing - Is it worth gemming all the old Kara gear thats currently rotting in the bank for AP, and keeping it around for soloing, since the +Hit is wasted on basic mobs?
As a side note, I would like an opinion on keeping a second set of gear for soloing - Is it worth gemming all the old Kara gear thats currently rotting in the bank for AP, and keeping it around for soloing, since the +Hit is wasted on basic mobs?
Probably not. As your gear gets better and better, soloing really just becomes a joke. With only TK\SSC\Badge gear, I'm dropping daily quest mobs in a few seconds unless I get an unlucky string of noncrits. You'd probably be better off just swapping in a couple pieces of gear, like ZJ\Heroic\Badge AP trinket or the like. Regemming T4\KZ gear for AP is unlikely to give you all that noticeable of a change; gemming for Agility would still be superior to AP anyhow, particularly for a Dagger build soloing.
Of course, all my experience is as a SS build, so I may be misunderstanding something.
While the hit gems will give you the highest DPS gain on bosses right up to the cap, if you are concerned with your performance on trash, you might want to use glinting gems (hit/agi) to keep from going so close to the cap that you have over 100% hit on non-boss targets. Normally only damage on bosses is what really matters, but if your guild is ignorant and likes to judge you based on trash meters that may be an issue for you.
There's a fair case to make (and one that has been made before multiple times) that performance on trash does indeed make a difference. Considering you're likely to spend the majority of your raiding time on trash, gemming to stay under the cap for 71s and 72s (i.e., using Hit/Agi) may be worthwhile. And the minor DPS loss you get from gemming Hit/Agi as opposed to straight Hit on a boss is going to have a negligible impact, except perhaps on Brutallus. The argument is further strengthened if you consider dodge (defensive stats) to have some value.
Either way gemming Hit/Agi or Hit is fine, good arguments can be made for both sides.
Also, some bosses have adds that are other than level 73, and being able to do good DPS on them strikes me as very much worthwhile. When doing Sunwell there's a very very strong case to be made that one should have a set of gear available that is not hitcapped on level 71s (the exact reasons for which I'm not allowed to discuss, but you can probably guess what I mean) even neglecting the trash considerations. Hence, my recommended approach is to wind up with hit right around that level (or perhaps even a bit lower to accommodate the level 70 hit cap), as it really doesn't cost you that much DPS. And, frankly, if you're really worried about the small amount of DPS you lose from not being near the hit cap on boss-level mobs, you can always carry around multiple copies of some pieces of gear with different gems in them - with set pieces dropping 3/week, it really isn't that hard to get multiple copies of some of them.
Procs. It doesn't matter if you hit or if you crit, both will proc a WF / Sword Spec / Mongoose / DST / SoC / whatever. Also, current theorycrafting math indicates that PPM effects (such as Mongoose, DST, MotB, etc) are based off of hasted speed. That is to say, if you increase your haste, you will not increase the frequency of such procs. However, if you increase your hit, you have more landed attacks which are capable of proc'ing .. stuff.
From a strict "damage from auto attacks alone" sense, yes you are correct. Haste will add more than hit. However, since hit increases the frequency of procs and therefore uptime, it is *generally* a better stat, point for point.
I see. That makes quite a bit of sense, and I figured we were missing something like that. Thank you
Originally Posted by Aldriana
At the risk of sounding like a bit of an ass: do you really think that these effects aren't modeled in painstaking detail in both spreadsheets?
In terms of a slightly more helpful answer: yes, crits increase the value of haste relative to hit. But glancing blows reduce the value of haste relative to the value of hit. And Sword Spec and Windfury count hit twice and haste only once in resolving their effects. And proc uptime of PPM effects is increased by hit and not haste.
Fundamentally: yes, the effect you describe exists. But there are many many others that aren't included by your logic; as such your analysis is incomplete.
A little bit harsh, but I don't mind :3. In any case, I did figure that this had all been taken into account, checked, and rechecked many times for the spreadsheets and such, but I was curious as to what the factor was that we were missing. Also it is hard to convince my friend that there is something else at work by just saying "well according to the spreadsheet...", though I do myself put a good deal of trust into it. Being able to go back to him and say "This is why" helps to get him to shut up though :P.
"4.Xs/5r" describes a cycle where you proactively selected the number of CP you spend on a slice and dice based on your current level of energy with the goal of averaging "4.X" CP per SnD.
If the sheet said 5s/5r and then switched to 3s/5r I would go with 3s/5r unless you have trouble keeping SnD up 100% of the time in which case I would stick with 5s/5r. If you unhide the relevent sheets you can compare the DPS directly between the two cycles and I'm betting it's +/-5DPS at most.
Here is what i think would be best for Mutilate/combat build. If your gonna strictly just raid and use mutilate you don't need all the fancy stuff for example Fleet footed. You had 5 points in Vile Poisons which in most cases in raids mostly all bosses are immune to poison damage. I may only raid kara gruuls and Mags. I am currently specced Hemo for pvp. I have been specced Mut in the past. Blizzard has been trying to address the situation with poisons on bosses. On most cases I found Wound healing and/or mind numbing poisons worked on raiding bosses.
in most cases in raids mostly all bosses are immune to poison damage.
...
On most cases I found Wound healing and/or mind numbing poisons worked on raiding bosses.
...
Well, the top one is total nonsense. Every boss except a very select few is susceptible to Deadly Poison and Instant Poison. Since Deadly is a debuff, it counts for Mutilate. Instant does not.
The second one is half nonsense. Most bosses aren't immune to Wound Poison, but Deadly is a better choice unless you need the anti-healing component. On the other hand, I know of no bosses at all who are susceptible to Mind Numbing Poison, annoying as that is.
There is an excellent discussion in the Mutilate Raid DPS thread on the merits of the various poison talents. The general conclusion is the Improved and Vile are mostly interchangeable, while Master Poisoner is inferior. The exact VP/IP split depends on your offhand speed. Read the linked post for more info.
So, in summary, yes, please check further next time before posting invalid information.
In raids almost nothing is immune to poison damage, vile poisons is a significant DPS talent for both mutilate AND combat speced rogues.
Fleet Footed is strictly better than Cat's Swiftness, 6 addtional dexterity on the boot enchant on top of an addtional chance to resist snare mechannics will always be better for DPS than Cat's Swiftness alone. There really is nowhere in the assassination tree you can move these points to that will completely compensate for the loss of 6 dexterity by switching boot enchants much less the potential DPS gain from resisting a snare attempt.
The listed Mutilate spec is wrong, though, due to the fact that it hasn't grabbed Puncturing Wounds. Though, Vulajin isn't updating this thread anymore, as I understand it, as he's working on the Theorycrafting Think tank.
The listed Mutilate spec is wrong, though, due to the fact that it hasn't grabbed Puncturing Wounds. Though, Vulajin isn't updating this thread anymore, as I understand it, as he's working on the Theorycrafting Think tank.
I made that spec on one of the first pages... As you can see from the date it was long before Imp Backstab was changed to Puncturing wounds. It was also before the discussion about the optimal distribution of poison talents based on offhand speed. These should be included in the new one and I'm sure V will take care of it.
05/15/08, 7:15 AM
I also have a yellow and an orange in the bank from Mag last week.
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