I've been fiddling around with the Rogue spreadsheet a bit and run into a speedbump. I have a question. But first, a few facts:
- I have T4 Helm, but I use Grimgrin Faceguard with 3x Delicate Living Ruby instead.
- I have T4 Gloves, I use them.
- I have T4 Legs, I use them. I intend on replacing them with Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer when I get ~30 more badges.
So currently, I'm maintaining my 2pc T4 bonus via Legs and Gloves. The Legs will soon be replaced, and I'll be losing the set bonus. Is it worth putting on the T4 Helm rather than Grimgrin Faceguard to maintain the 2pc T4 bonus? In my mind, it's not worth it, but the potential damage increase from RED is attractive. Just looking to get a few peoples' opinions to be sure. Alternatively, if Grips of Damnation drop from Reliquary this week, I'll be taking those. Again, is it worth losing the 2pc bonus, or should I use the Helm/Legs combo?
Note that my gear selection is very limited as I'm guild Main Tank - the Rogue is just my alt and there are only a few bosses I can bring him along to each week.
I've been fiddling around with the Rogue spreadsheet a bit and run into a speedbump. I have a question. But first, a few facts:
- I have T4 Helm, but I use Grimgrin Faceguard with 3x Delicate Living Ruby instead.
- I have T4 Gloves, I use them.
- I have T4 Legs, I use them. I intend on replacing them with Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer when I get ~30 more badges.
So currently, I'm maintaining my 2pc T4 bonus via Legs and Gloves. The Legs will soon be replaced, and I'll be losing the set bonus. Is it worth putting on the T4 Helm rather than Grimgrin Faceguard to maintain the 2pc T4 bonus? In my mind, it's not worth it, but the potential damage increase from RED is attractive. Just looking to get a few peoples' opinions to be sure. Alternatively, if Grips of Damnation drop from Reliquary this week, I'll be taking those. Again, is it worth losing the 2pc bonus, or should I use the Helm/Legs combo?
Note that my gear selection is very limited as I'm guild Main Tank - the Rogue is just my alt and there are only a few bosses I can bring him along to each week.
have found personally since i often dont get WF due to sometime low melee numbers that i am quite often top or at least up in top 3
Well, it depends somewhat on gear level and what you're getting instead, but, for reference: my guild usually runs three rogues on Brutallus, two of which are in the melee group (with enhancement shaman, fury warrior, and ret pally) and the third gets thrown in with the hunters (with GoA and a couple righteous furies). Those in the melee group are usually in the top 3 damage dealers; the one in the hunter group tends to be only barely in the top 10. So, like, if you're still getting battle shout and leader of the pack or some such, I can still see performing pretty well; but if you're running in, like, a hunter group and still beating casters and hunters, this is a sign that the rest of your DPSers are doing something very very wrong.
Sorry, I was confused.
Is the overall DPS calculation inclusive of the 2pc T4 bonus? Or do I add that value to my final result?
I notice the Approximate Cycle updates to reflect 2pc T4 so I wasn't entirely sure.
Regardless, thanks for the great spreadsheet. It's already "opened my eyes" to alot of potential DPS increases I had been neglecting.
Well, it depends somewhat on gear level and what you're getting instead, but, for reference: my guild usually runs three rogues on Brutallus, two of which are in the melee group (with enhancement shaman, fury warrior, and ret pally) and the third gets thrown in with the hunters (with GoA and a couple righteous furies). Those in the melee group are usually in the top 3 damage dealers; the one in the hunter group tends to be only barely in the top 10. So, like, if you're still getting battle shout and leader of the pack or some such, I can still see performing pretty well; but if you're running in, like, a hunter group and still beating casters and hunters, this is a sign that the rest of your DPSers are doing something very very wrong.
Typical makeup if we are low on melee has been in the past
2 rogue/war/sham/hunt or rogue/war/sham/2xhunt with GOA/STR/BS dont have a raiding feral druid so no lop
recently we have had a few extra melee so last 2 raid we ran 3xrogue/sham/war with the hunter of in a group with another shammie
Had Rogue/Shaman/Warrior/Hunter/Hunter the other night and took out top 4 spots and 6th spot on one of the bosses in MH cant memba atm think was 3rd.
note we are not in sunwell but 4/5 MH and only 1 week in bt for the first 2 so obviously not as far along as you.
Is anyone aware of an addon that can be used to build a list of buff/debuffs on the player/boss respectively?
I'd like to build a 'checklist' in order to see that everyone is doing what they should be doing to ensure DPS is being maximised.
I appreciate that Elekk Buff Bars comes very close to satisfying this request but I'm really seeking something that helps me see that everyone is doing what they should be doing (which I find tricky in the 'heat of battle'). Ultimately I'd like to set specifications for what 'optimal' buff/debuffing is in a given raid group and then have the addon notify me when the parameters are not being satisfied.
On the subject of addons, is there one that helps synergise drum rotations or even just shows me when other party members last used their drums?
From a little testing with my gear in the Gear spreadsheet, GoA + IP is ~30 DPS lower than WF. At your gear level, it may even be more than that. That being said, I think the general knowledge is 1 DPS war is enough to make Windfury better than GoA, escpecialy with a rogue there. Might be something to discuss with your shaman and/or raid leader.
Capek: I beleive RBM (an Ace addon, I think it's a form of Boss Mods), has a drum watch plugin that should help with the drums, and may be able to help with some of the other features you want, though I haven't tested it myself.
Is anyone aware of an addon that can be used to build a list of buff/debuffs on the player/boss respectively?
I'd like to build a 'checklist' in order to see that everyone is doing what they should be doing to ensure DPS is being maximised.
I appreciate that Elekk Buff Bars comes very close to satisfying this request but I'm really seeking something that helps me see that everyone is doing what they should be doing (which I find tricky in the 'heat of battle'). Ultimately I'd like to set specifications for what 'optimal' buff/debuffing is in a given raid group and then have the addon notify me when the parameters are not being satisfied.
On the subject of addons, is there one that helps synergise drum rotations or even just shows me when other party members last used their drums?
I've been fiddling around with the Rogue spreadsheet a bit and run into a speedbump. I have a question. But first, a few facts:
- I have T4 Helm, but I use Grimgrin Faceguard with 3x Delicate Living Ruby instead.
- I have T4 Gloves, I use them.
- I have T4 Legs, I use them. I intend on replacing them with Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer when I get ~30 more badges.
So currently, I'm maintaining my 2pc T4 bonus via Legs and Gloves. The Legs will soon be replaced, and I'll be losing the set bonus. Is it worth putting on the T4 Helm rather than Grimgrin Faceguard to maintain the 2pc T4 bonus? In my mind, it's not worth it, but the potential damage increase from RED is attractive. Just looking to get a few peoples' opinions to be sure. Alternatively, if Grips of Damnation drop from Reliquary this week, I'll be taking those. Again, is it worth losing the 2pc bonus, or should I use the Helm/Legs combo?
Note that my gear selection is very limited as I'm guild Main Tank - the Rogue is just my alt and there are only a few bosses I can bring him along to each week.
Except for the obvious answer: Consult the spreadsheet, my advice would be to keep 2p T4 until you get 2p T6. It allows you to have a 1s/5r rotation which is very nice.
A question to theorycraft junkies:
Has anyone made any calcs about the difference between using 4x Drums of battle in row, compared to using 2x Drums of Battle + 2x Drums of War together?
Any another one:
Lately I've been starting to save energy (without dropping my cycle or capping energy ofc), to unleash it when I have many dmg-increasing temporary item-buffs active (such as hyjal ring, warp spring coil, mongoose). The way I do this is by looking at the average dmg calculated on my tooltip through an addon. But it's kind of an icky way to do it, and ideas on a better way to do it would be appreciated. Would also be cool to see some napkin math on how much dps could potentially be increased this way.
Is anyone aware of an addon that can be used to build a list of buff/debuffs on the player/boss respectively?
I'd like to build a 'checklist' in order to see that everyone is doing what they should be doing to ensure DPS is being maximised.
I appreciate that Elekk Buff Bars comes very close to satisfying this request but I'm really seeking something that helps me see that everyone is doing what they should be doing (which I find tricky in the 'heat of battle'). Ultimately I'd like to set specifications for what 'optimal' buff/debuffing is in a given raid group and then have the addon notify me when the parameters are not being satisfied.
On the subject of addons, is there one that helps synergise drum rotations or even just shows me when other party members last used their drums?
#Showtooltip
/p Using Drums of Battle
/use Drums of Battle
/in 25 /p My Drums will run out in 5 secs
/in 115 /p My drums will be ready in 5 secs
Is an excellent party macro for drums. Only requires that you look at your party window.
Thanks Seleli and Koaschten for your help. Much appreciated. I'll be continuing discussion of it in the UI and addons section so as not to get off topic.
Lately I've been starting to save energy (without dropping my cycle or capping energy ofc), to unleash it when I have many dmg-increasing temporary item-buffs active (such as hyjal ring, warp spring coil, mongoose). The way I do this is by looking at the average dmg calculated on my tooltip through an addon. But it's kind of an icky way to do it, and ideas on a better way to do it would be appreciated. Would also be cool to see some napkin math on how much dps could potentially be increased this way.
Simply use a timer add-on which allows you to customize the buffs it tracks such as ClassTimer.
I usually configure it to visualize the procs from mongoose, WSC and DST.
A question to theorycraft junkies:
Has anyone made any calcs about the difference between using 4x Drums of battle in row, compared to using 2x Drums of Battle + 2x Drums of War together?
Any another one:
Lately I've been starting to save energy (without dropping my cycle or capping energy ofc), to unleash it when I have many dmg-increasing temporary item-buffs active (such as hyjal ring, warp spring coil, mongoose). The way I do this is by looking at the average dmg calculated on my tooltip through an addon. But it's kind of an icky way to do it, and ideas on a better way to do it would be appreciated. Would also be cool to see some napkin math on how much dps could potentially be increased this way.
Regarding the first one: I think you're vastly overestimating the value of stacking procs. If Drums of Battle and Drums of War were otherwise comparable, what you describe would make sense. But they're not - Drums of Battle are about 3 times better than Drums of War, and while stacking the effects will improve Drums of War somewhat, it's going to be nowhere remotely close to a factor of 3 improvement. So Drums of War are clearly superior.
Regarding the second one: Cooldown stacking of this sort certainly can increase DPS. It just doesn't increase it by very much. So, for instance: with my gear and the default buffs in the Gear sheet, I do right around 2k DPS. If I artificially force it to give me an extra 4% crit and 160 AP on specials - which is roughly consistant with every single SS performed occuring with two mongoose procs up (which is clearly not possible - I gain a grand total of 33 DPS by so doing. Realistically, I suspect one would be lucky to get a quarter of that benefit. So we're talking DPS improvements on the half-a-percent type level. Does that mean it's not worth doing? Not at all. It's a small effect, but it's still worth doing. It's just that one should have reasonable expectations on how much it matters, and thus on how much risk it's worth incorporating into your cycle to do - one could very easily screw up and let your energy cap out by so doing, which kills any advantage you gained outright.
A bit off topic and sorry for that but I would like some enlightenment, I am trying to convince our melee group leader that placing one of the rogues out of the melee group in order to put there a BM hunter is wrong and I am looking some solid facts to back it up. I did some research on the forums but I didn’t find anything really strong that could convince him.
Most people just say that warrior/enh shaman/rogue/rogue/feral is one of the best if not the best melee group but most of the times the second rogue in our raids gets dumped into a random group because the BM hunter gets all whiny how he loses DPS and how the melee group needs his Ferocious Inspiration buff.
Some bullet points to take to your raid leader:
-Battle Shout only affects MELEE Attack Power (so the hunter gets nothing from being in a group with a warrior)
-Unleash Rage only affects MELEE Attack Power (so the hunter gets nothing from being in a group with an Enhancement Shaman).
-Strength of Earth doesn't do much at all for a hunter if anything
Basically you normal malee synergy group is:
-DPS Warrior - Provides Battle Shout which buffs Warriors, Shamans, Rogues and Feral Druids
-Enhancement Shaman - Provides Windfury (if he is droppinig Grace of Air instead, this is a mistake, if there is a warrior in the group he should ALWAYS drop WF), Strength of Earth and Unleash Rage - All of these benefit Warriors and Rogues, and all of them except WF benefit Druids and Shaman
-3 Other MELEE - Rogues, Ret Paladins or Feral Druids
A Feral Druid provides 5% Crit which is about 3% more damage, which is about the same as a Ret Pally, if you don't have 3 rogues or another DPS Warrior, then you can slot a Feral in there.
What you can see: NONE of those buffs benefit a hunter, Strength of Earth and Battle Shout Benefit the Hunter's Pet, and Leader of the Pack helps the hunter, but you are far better off putting the Hunter and Feral together with any other hunters and having them drop GoA.
The DPS gain from the hunter buff doesn't even come close to the DPS lost by a rogue from not being in the right group (you lose about 1/3 of your potential DPS).
If you "melee group leader" still insists on buffing himself (which is all he is doing) at the expense of total raid DPS (which is what really matters), then talk to someone who can get through to him. Basically he is building a group that is ideal for himself and gives him all the buffs he can get, but it isn't helping the raid, a hunter has no business in a melee group unless you are only running 4 melee, and even then you are better off putting the tank in there.
The hunter is far better off in another group getting Grace of Air, Mana Spring, etc from a Resto Shaman and you should put a Feral in there as well because Hunters benefit far more from the Crit Aura then Rogues, Warriors, or Shaman.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
Some bullet points to take to your raid leader:
-Battle Shout only affects MELEE Attack Power (so the hunter gets nothing from being in a group with a warrior)
-Unleash Rage only affects MELEE Attack Power (so the hunter gets nothing from being in a group with an Enhancement Shaman).
-Strength of Earth doesn't do much at all for a hunter if anything
/snip
This is not correct. As most hunters are BM, the pet plays a major role in their DPS composition. While a hunter will gain noticably less DPS from a Battle Shout, he'll still see some effect. I myself am by no means a hunter expert, but claiming that hunters will not gain anything from melee buffs is wrong.
Hunters do gain something from Battle Shout and Unleashed Rage on their pet. However, as their pet is about a quarter of their total damage, I don't think there's much argument that they gain vastly less from it than do meleers. So while the exact details of the argument are incorrect, the conclusion that putting a hunter in the melee group is a complete and total waste is still valid.
Guys, a great thread that has explained to me quite a bit on how rogues can excel! There is something that is bothering me, though, and it concerns weapon expertise.
I understand that the more points you have in it, the less is the chance that a boss will dodge or parry your attack. But when fighting a boss as a rogue you are always positioned behind him, which means he cannot parry or dodge your attacks (right?). If that is the case, then is it correct to conclude that +weapon expertise is useless when fighting bosses?
I doubt this is the case, since I have read on a few reputable forums that it is very good to have plenty of +hit and +weapon expertise. So there must be something I am not taking into consideration. What is it?
Gear wise i do have 2-3 pieces of T4 in my bank but went with that setup. With the chest piece being pvp gear im plannin on goin with the 2.4 new badge chest as soon as i get enough badges.
If there are things that needs to be changed please let me know i will take any tips with great appreciation.
Lately ive went to combat fists, was combat swords, to see if my dps and damage would b up'd. before with combat swords i usually hovered around #6-10 spot in dmg and usually #3-5 spot in dps. i used DP on OH as always whenever windfury was down but when it wasnt i usually went IP on MH and DP on OH. rotations are a bit flaiky at times since i kinda just go a couple CP(2-3), SnD, couple CD(3),couple CD, eviscerate, and etc.
when i switched to combat fists i now hover around #3-5 spot in dmg and #2-4 in dps. had psns typically the same as swords and so were rotations on CPs and Finishing moves. so overall it went up a bit but not drastically and still behind the other rogues in my guild, which are always around the #1-2 spot in dmg. reading over the huge information at the beginning of the thread has now made me just stick to the 1s/5r to up my dmg and dps, along with goin Combat Fist+swoird.
are there any suggestions in wat i could possibly do, besides the things ive mention, to increase dmg and dps? just feeling a bit shameful to be a rogue and not b on top charts, where i should b.
05/18/08, 11:50 PM
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