Roguecraft 101 - Page 125

• Feist-Mok · 05/23/08, 2:28 AM

Originally Posted by Annihilus

Do an above poster about Expertise, it's frickin' sweet, period. I'm about Expertise capped (not now I'm in Pvp gear and spec) and the other night against Vashj my Sinister Strike miss% was less than 1%, which is a personal record. My missed melee swings were like 1.2% misses.

Question, a Rogue in my guild got the Claw of Molten Fury but he already had Vanir's Fist of Brutality for his main hand. He also has the OH and now has the two-piece set. I ran him through the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet with his current gear/spec and then again with the Claw replacing the Vanir's fist and it shows him losing 17DPS. He is arguing the point that the proc rate on the weapon will make up the difference. In my opinion, I don't see how because 17DPS is well..., 17DPS. Does the proc rate of the Claw of Molten Fury's set bonus make up for the loss of DPS? Please somebody chime in on this.

Thanks,

Anni

I believe the spreadsheet models the proc. Even if it doesn't, it's terrible, and not worth chasing.

Roefyll · 05/23/08, 2:39 AM

I used the Molten Fury set for a short while.

I added the proc modelling to the DPS spreadsheet myself from my own WWS stats testing, since there was no data available at the time. (The Molten Fury set IS in the official DPS spreadsheet now, complete with proc)

They were worth using during that short window between 2.4 going live and the heroic badge vendor being unlocked.

Annihilus · 05/23/08, 2:47 AM

Originally Posted by Roefyll

I used the Molten Fury set for a short while.

I added the proc modelling to the DPS spreadsheet myself from my own WWS stats testing, since there was no data available at the time. (The Molten Fury set IS in the official DPS spreadsheet now, complete with proc)

They were worth using during that short window between 2.4 going live and the heroic badge vendor being unlocked.

Sweet. Yeah, I couldn't see any reason for him to make the switch. The Badge Fist is much better. NOt that the CoMF is bad, it's just not better than Vanir's.

Anybody know what the internal proc is on the Claw of Molten Fury?

Meiryuu · 05/23/08, 8:59 AM

Hello everyone,
I'm currently trying to determine if Combat swords with Heartless and Akil-zon's Talonblade(dual mongoose) would be superior to Combat fists with dual Vanir's (also both mongoose). I currently have T4 set two bonus with some badge gear; my guild is Pre-SSC. I tried using the spread sheet to figure out if I should enchant the swords or spend the badges on the fists but the spreadsheet keeps crashing on my laptop. I've looked through a lot of the posts hoping to see if anyone else has had the same issue/debate. So if anyone can help me out it would be much appreciated.

Thank you,
Meiryuu-70 BE Rogue Feathermoon

Aaberg · 05/23/08, 9:14 AM

Meiryuu, what system and program are you using?

Meiryuu · 05/23/08, 9:21 AM

Vista with 1gig Ram, and Microsoft Office

Ozzmar · 05/23/08, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Annihilus

Anybody know what the internal proc is on the Claw of Molten Fury?

A tester here said it's about 5%:

Also, saying in two posts what you can say in one will get your hand slapped by a mod.

◊ Hanos · 05/23/08, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by mmreed

Hello fellow rogues.

I have been reading through the many pages here, and would like to solicit some advice and help.

I am a combat dagger rogue.
The World of Warcraft Armory

Currently my rotation is use Sinister Strike to build 4CPs then do a SnD. Use SinStrike to build 5CPs and do a rupture. By the time I sinstrike 4 CPs, its time to renew Snd (has a few seconds left).. so basically I repeat the sequence.

In looking at the damage formulas, it looks like it would be better if I switched to Backstabs to generate my CPs. They would generate slower, but the BS dmg would be better than the SinStrike. Am I looking at this the right way?

Also - I have tried looking over my stats and gear to see if there is anything I should change. Not the actual gear yet, but the gems and enchants - I havent noticed any, but I would like some of the better versed players to take a look.

My main goal is to put out as much DPS as I can witht he current gear that I have. My intent is to upgrade via badge items as soon as possible.

I think everyone else missed the fact that you are level 22, in which case none of the discussions here mean anything to you. Get the slowest weapon you can find, and Sinister Strike your way to 70.

Edit - Apparently the link in your profile is wrong - FIX THAT!

Everything everyone else said is correct, look at the spreadsheets, use the recommended rotation, etc. Sinister Strike with daggers is monumentally stupid, but considering Kara and High King are the extent of your raid experience based on gear, it really isn't going to make or break things. Backstab or Mutilate if you want to use dagger, Sinister Strike or Hemo for Swords/Maces/Fists. Your spec is correct, enchants and gems aren't ideal but you have bigger issues before dealing with that.

Ditsy · 05/23/08, 1:59 PM

Properly specced and gemmed the two fists will do more dps IMHO.

Originally Posted by Meiryuu

Hello everyone,
I'm currently trying to determine if Combat swords with Heartless and Akil-zon's Talonblade(dual mongoose) would be superior to Combat fists with dual Vanir's (also both mongoose). I currently have T4 set two bonus with some badge gear; my guild is Pre-SSC. I tried using the spread sheet to figure out if I should enchant the swords or spend the badges on the fists but the spreadsheet keeps crashing on my laptop. I've looked through a lot of the posts hoping to see if anyone else has had the same issue/debate. So if anyone can help me out it would be much appreciated.

Thank you,
Meiryuu-70 BE Rogue Feathermoon

Xayne · 05/23/08, 3:46 PM

Hi all. I've created a little spread sheet tool for calculating rupture damage. Feedback is welcome and appreciated.

Visual Rupture Calculator

Jankage · 05/24/08, 4:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ditsy

Properly specced and gemmed the two fists will do more dps IMHO.

I believe a lot of folks overlook their rogue's race when determining if fists are better than combat swords with the gear available to them.

As a rough general rule of thumb it's suffice it to say the badge fists will come out ahead of combat swords or hybrid fist/sword setup for all rogues who don't have [Blade of Savagery] and who are not human. Human rogues are better off with say [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] paired with any sword [Talon of Azshara] and beyond thanks to the expertise racial they enjoy.

So, Meiryuu, yes both Vanir's is going to be the highest DPS for you at this point.

xsjado · 05/25/08, 10:15 AM

Ok i have a [Mark of the Champion] where on the list do you think this trink ranks for BT / SW seeing that almost every boss is a Demon.

ekval · 05/25/08, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by xsjado

Ok i have a [Mark of the Champion] where on the list do you think this trink ranks for BT / SW seeing that almost every boss is a Demon.

[Bloodlust Brooch] AP in spreadsheet is 118 which should give you some idea. It's not worth to use over some trinkets BT / SW player can obtain (DST / SoC). If you want to be sure which is best for your gear you can always change Bloodlust Brooch's AP to 150 in spreadsheet and check it that way easily.

madman · 05/25/08, 10:41 AM

I am currently trying to write a list of different items and their EP for the combat rogues in the guild. I want rogues to be able to tell if A is better than B so that people dont roll on worse items. So is there a way of getting these estimates on weapons, how do listed dps and speed relate to EP? And also for trinkets and other proc based items it gets a bit complicated. I guess I can just use the spreadsheet to check the rank and list them in order though without an item value

Seleli · 05/25/08, 11:19 AM

The Spreadsheets have the EP values of trinkets and weapon speed/DPS. With so few trinkets and weapon choices out there though, it would be just as easy to list the best to the worst, as that really doesn't change.

That being said, each gear level, and different set of gear is going to give different EP weights. I'm basically T4 geared and my EP weights look nothing like those in the first post. I've found the easiest way is to do my own research (IE use the spreadsheets myself), and use Pawn in-game configured with the EP values from the spreadsheets for my character, instead of relying on those for someone else. IMO, if you have time to raid, you have 10-15 minutes to devote to entering your gear into a spreadsheet, so you can see the best upgrades for *you.*

madman · 05/25/08, 11:30 AM

Indeed I agree. I have just written a guide for the guildies including advice on how to gem, enchant and playing style, which attacks to use etc so that everyone can get that part right. That is the most important thing, more so that the gear part IMO. I am trying to keep it as simple and TC/math-free as possible to motivate people. So I just want to make it really simple on my 2nd part which is a list of gear, where i plan to just use the T5 values which is the level we're at more or less. I could point ppl to the spreadsheet but I remember that I had trouble getting it to work initially so I don't want to push anything on people who are less inclined.

Arindelest · 05/25/08, 7:36 PM

Originally Posted by xsjado

Ok i have a [Mark of the Champion] where on the list do you think this trink ranks for BT / SW seeing that almost every boss is a Demon.

...it's just 150 EP, compare to other trinkets using the spreadsheet.

Ima krank don · 05/25/08, 8:43 PM

After about an hour yesterday deciding between getting the 105 badge dagger or the 105 mh fist I went with the dagger.. I spent a lot of time researching and getting opinions and I was already 41/20/0 so I went with the dagger , saving for OH dagger now. My question is did I make a mistake? I would have been combat/fist spec untill I could afford the OH fist and in the mean time I'd have been using the mh fist and quickblade. But 41/20/0 mut does out dps combat fists (Not cswords) right?

• Vulajin · 05/25/08, 9:10 PM

The Theorycrafting Think Tank version of this article is now live! Access it here:

Rogue: PvE DPS

Please continue to use this thread for discussion of any of the topics in the article. Responses to the article are to be used only for corrections to its content or concrete suggestions for improvement. In the near future, I will be recasting this thread as a general rogue PvE DPS discussion thread. I will keep the first post up to date with summaries of theorycraft relating to current events in rogue PvE DPS, including (when the beta begins) information about Wrath of the Lich King talents and abilities. Stay tuned!

tremotrav · 05/26/08, 3:14 AM

Im starting a rog for another alt, and was wondering what is better, human or NE rogue? does that +5 sword bonus really make that big of a diff?

Shych · 05/26/08, 3:43 AM

Originally Posted by tremotrav

Im starting a rog for another alt, and was wondering what is better, human or NE rogue? does that +5 sword bonus really make that big of a diff?

Originally Posted by Original Poster

0/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 103
1/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 83
2/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 64
0/2 Weapon Expertise, Human (wielding swords or maces): 83
1/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 64
2/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 44

This is the diffrence. You'll need 20 less expertise

Jakani · 05/26/08, 5:06 AM

Originally Posted by Ima krank don

But 41/20/0 mut does out dps combat fists (Not cswords) right?

No, it doesn't. How they compare will depend a bit on your progression/gear level, but in general mutilate does not do as much damage as combat fists, combat fist/sword, or combat swords.

• Vulajin · 05/26/08, 5:51 AM

At Aldriana's suggestion, I'll be asking the mods to close this thread, and I have opened a new one for discussion of rogue PvE DPS, including Wrath talents/abilities (when appropriate). The new thread may be found here:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t26242-r...lk_discussion/

Lorretine · 05/26/08, 6:32 AM

Other races (or humans with other weapon types) can make use of it providing they have at most one of the following items: [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths], [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade], [Slayer's Boots], or any other item with more than 20 expertise rating.

Hey all,

Right, I am a night elf rogue raiding gruul karazhan and soon moving to SCC/TK. I recently obtained Shard of Contempt from heroic MGT. But I am a bit confused now, if I would have to believe the above statement, equipping the shard and not capping your expertise with another item is a wasted trinket slot? Or would it still be usefull to get as close to the cap as possible with this trinket?

Hope somebody can clarify this, I am sitting on 255 hit rating at the moment still using Romulo's Poison Vial. I had a lot of other hit rating stuff too but the spreadsheet I used recommended I would stack some more attack power for my Combat Mace/Fist (dragonstrike/vanir off hand) build.

How come hit rating has such a little effect on my dps at my gear level?

Our gruul (and some other fights), right before I upgraded my Trinket, any advise would be greaty appreciated.

WWS STATS

EDIT: Armory is down, but here is my Rogue none the less.

Armory Downtime

EDIT: Oops, just read the latest post.

Giltaur · 05/26/08, 8:59 AM

Dear EJ's,

I have a small question, maybe one of you can help me out.

Now, I'm finally using the spreadsheet to finetune my gear. Atm my total dps equals 1493,91 with 279 Hit. I can buy [Angelista's Revenge] to replace my [Violet signet of the Master's Assassin]. According to the spreadsheet this will raise my total dps to 1508,85. Now this is a no-brainer, right? Yet, what makes me doubt a little is that my Hitrating will drop to 254. Is the spreadsheet actually taking into account the specific value of Hitrating to a rogue? If so, it seems I can safely wander even more from the 300+ Hit I had some time ago.

I could buy Tricker's Stickyfingers as well, raising my total dps to 1512,30 even. But...this will be at the costs of another 17 Hit + my 2pc Netherblade armorbonus. Leaving me at 237 Hit. Can you imagine my hesitation as a new user of the spreadsheet?

I would appreciate it if someone could help me a bit what to do.

Cheers,
Giltaur