ake

I was looking for something a little more in depth than:
"The effects of these two changes bring maces and daggers roughly up to the level of fists for DPS (that is, about 2-3% behind swords; however, note that daggers will still lag further behind on fights where Murder is effective). In addition, mace/sword builds increase in DPS, such that the top DPS builds will likely be sword/sword ~ fist/sword > mace/sword."

I had in fact read "Preliminary 2.3 Information".

 

Fold

Perhaps you should ask some more specific questions then. What does "as viable" mean? If you're asking specifically about the change to Mace Specialization which gives +5% damage to crits, the answer is that Fist with inherent crit, not a lethality type bonus, is still higher DPS. What does "reasonable hybrid" mean? I think you'll find that most posters and information here are dedicated to min/maxing, or at least the theorycraft behind min/maxing. A hybrid PVE/PVP build is pretty subjective.

 

Lavery

Ake, you ask if it will be "as viable" as fist/sword, and then you quote the answer. In the context of PvE raiding, no, it does not look to be as viable. Where's the confusion, here?

[e] Fold beat me here by a good deal. Woops.

 

Squirl

would haste and hit have the same affect...

Here's some that may or may not be accurate...

mob hp = 10000, mob dodge = 5%, dmg per hit = 100, atk speed = 1.0 (weird stats for the sake of simplicity)

no +hit/haste- ((10000[hp]/100[dmg])*1.05[dodge]) = 105[hits to mob death]

+ 1% hit- ((10000/100)*(1.05-.01[hit]) = 104

+1% haste- ((10000/100)*1.05)*(1.0/1.01[haste]) = 104 (rounded, did I do something wrong here?)

 

Ricard

Well, for one, + hit % doesn't lower dodge chance. So, it wouldn't subtract from the 5% dodge that you say this enemy has. Expertise will do that. +hit decreases your miss chance, which is talked about at the beginning of this thread.

 

madman

I have a couple of questions. I am combat dagger specced, and without BoK AP is worth a bit more than Agility (1.96). When we raid, we don't always have 3 pallys, some times only two. So it boils down to this. You say that Salvation > BoM > BoK. Is that still the case for dagger rogues? If we only have two pallies, I tend to currently ask for Salv and BoM, but them I'm getting diminishing returns from the Agility compared to AP.

Since the hit cap will be raised in 2.3, it is my understanding that stacking hit upwards to 363 will be the thing to do. If the stat values will not change in 2.3, I presume 343 will be the new cap to work towards, as the 20hit food will be the best food buff? So just to be safe, I wonder will the values assigned to the difference stats stay the same in the upcoming patch?

 

madman

Looking at those stats, I can not understand why it would be on par with the Netherblade headpiece. To me, most of the stats on the Grimgrim look better, and it has 3 gem slots which should also make up for the red+meta on the Netherblade. So unless you are losing the set bonus, the Grimgrin seem like an upgrade to me.

 

Katherine

Quite simple, Grimgrin lacks the meta socket.

 

Foxx2405

Im just wondering some stuff here.
Im not a rogue myself, im an enhancement shaman, but in regard to hit and crit rating

For shamans hit rating doesnt have a huge value, since once you cross the 9% hit, you are hitcapped on your special attacks for bosses...

A enhancement shamans dps chart looks pretty much this way:
50% White attacks
30% Windfury
10% Stormstrike
10% Shocks

That means if i invest into hit when i have more then 9% (we get 9% from talents, so that starts right away), im only improving the 50% part of my dps....whereas crit for example increases dmg for 90% of my attacks

----

Now ive been looking at rogues that way, and ive seen several different values for this

Some sites say that rogue hit is equal to crit, until a rogue gets to 9% hit (special attack cap) and then crit becomes slightly better

But when i see the values in this topic hit is vastly vastly superior

Now i know rogues have a lot of abilities (restore energy on hit / poisons) which require you to hit the enemy, but do those way up against the fact that with hit you boost a smaller portion of your dps then crit for example does...

 

Cos-

1% crit is more item budget then 1% hit, rogue white damage is 60%+ usually, and combat potency/sword spec/poison/anything that is ON HIT benefits from hit rating so it isn't simple more auto attack damage. Go look at the first post, hit and crit aren't that far off in the AEP thingy.

 

• Bluefish

I've been trying out 41/20 Mutilate for the last week in anticipation of the patch. Its DPS is certainly lower than Combat Swords but I've been pleasantly surprised by how close the two are. Here's some WWS reports for you. Supremecy is Fist/Sword with Al'ar fist / merc sword, Zinterax is Swords with Merc MH, Glad OH. I'm mainhanding Malchazeen and offhanding Gladiator's Shiv. In all cases we were in the same group and (I think) used the same consumables.

617k vs. 689k (89%)
Tidewalker (I swigged one haste pot)

353k vs. 400k (88%)
Lurker

307k vs. 277k (110%)
Leotheras

326k vs. 346k (94%)
Karathress I was on the Priest, he stomped totems

338k vs. 363k (93%)
Al'ar

306k vs. 270k (88%)
Solarian

On Void Reaver I did 700 DPS. >__<

My personal conclusion from these numbers is that given equal gear, PvE experience with the build, 115% speed Fleet Footed, and some good theorycrafting for Mutilate, a 41/20 Rogue on poisonable mobs can probably do 95% of a Sword Rogue's damage. From that point it becomes a matter of opinion whether Quick Recovery closes the gap.

I used the following priority queue:
Always keep Slice and Dice up
Always Mutilate / Rupture / Eviscerate during Find Weakness
Rupture > Evisc

 

• Cluey

Honestly you would be better off reading the first post in the enhance shaman thread and then asking in there if it doesn't answer your questions.
The first post is updated frequently so it is unlikely that you would need to ask anything so read and learn
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

 

Foxx2405

I know it inside out, but it doenst handle rogues... im wondering about rogues not shamans :P

---------

Ok thanks...Thats exactly what i was wondering..

The first page show that hit has quite a higher value (2.34 vs 1.74 for combat swords), but i read that part includes all ablities which have on hit procs

 

Faytte

Query. You said 41/20 in anticipation of the patch? Have I missed something regarding 41/20 in regards to the patch notes?

Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)

 

• Latito

Just to clarify a few things about hit/crit values..

1% Crit > 1% Hit
1 hit RATING > 1 crit RATING

Thus, due to hit and crit rating being equal in the developers eyes for itemization, items with hit rating tend to be better.

This is due largely to 2 factors:
-Several powerful procs which only occur on a successful melee attack (hit OR crit, not miss)
-High amount of white damage (affected equally by hit and crit)

A typical rogue will be somewhere around 65% white damage, 25% SS, 6% rupture, 4% deadly poison. This makes for 65% damage which is affected equally by hit and crit, 25% just by crit and 4% just by hit (keeping DP stack up.. although not really a big issue).

This may seem like crit would be worth more (25% > 4%, right?) but due to so many procs that a rogue depends on (Combat Potency, DST, Mongoose, Poisons, etc) which are very powerful, hit edges out crit.. per RATING. Yes, 22 crit rating > 15.7 hit rating... but rating point for rating point, hit is better.

Using the values quoted above:
2.34 apEP * 15.7 rating per hit = 36.74 apEP per 1% hit
1.74 apEP * 22.1 rating per crit = 38.45 apEP per 1% crit

 

Cos-

Best I can figure they think it'll be fun to run around with 115% speed and want to see if the damage can be competitive.

I went and tested 41/20/0 up to Gorefiend with Boundless Agony/S2 shiv and it performed a solid 200 (12-14%) dps worse then BoI/s2quickblade in the same situations. I chalk some of that up to general mutilate newbness but honestly and all things considered unless you are stuck waiting for drops and daggers are coming out your ears mutilate isn't competitive.

 

Mideci

I'm always very suspicious of "I did this with this build and gear, he did that with this build and gear." The spreadsheets do a tremendous job of teling you what your dps will be hitting targets.

Mutilate is less good it appears mathematically. With a skilled player in a guild that doesn't min max, it won't be so much less good that they throw you out of the raid. If the multilate rogue is more consistently on point than the combat rogue, he might win the meters. But it doesn't mean mutilate is actually a good choice if you are seeking damage maximization purely and simply.

And yet if that's the way you want to play, you ought to. It's a game.

 

• Bluefish

And I'm very skeptical of the spreadsheet's modeling of Mutilate, thus the acquisition of hard data to support or refute it. There is reams and reams of data on Combat specs, but hardly any on Mutilate, and very little empirical testing as well.

This sort of stuff doesn't count; the truth is that nobody really knows how to raid with Mutilate. Is double Deadly + Envenom better than WF or Instant + Deadly + Eviscerate? At 3 CPs with 5 seconds on Find Weakness and 10+ seconds on Slice and Dice, should I Muti->Rupture or Rupture->Muti->some other finisher? What's the best gem for a yellow slot with a 4 agi bonus? 3 agi? 3 hit rating?

Stories of "Well I spec'd Muti for a day and it didn't beat Combat" are just that, stories -- they are not hard data. As far as I know there isn't a decent Mutilate sheet or simulator in existence; nobody even knows what balance of stats a Mutilate Rogue should be looking for. Yes, it is true that it's doing less damage than Combat right now, but that may be due to a lack of information, not due to a straight-out inferiority. I wouldn't dismiss it so easily

 

Cyn

If you think mutilate is going to suddenly gain 200dps from minor play adjustments, you are sorely mistaken. Sure it's hard to play "technically perfect", but most people that have played it for any considerable time aren't far off.

I raided as mutilate all the way from Attumen to Teron (fang of Vashj/s2 shanker), then switched to combat swords (double s2). The DPS jump was considerable, 3hit vs 3agi, 1 second of snd overlap in certain scenarios will not account for this. Mutilate isn't terrible, it's a decent all round spec, but combat is simply superior for pve damage, no adjustment to gear or strategy will change that.

 

Squirl

Sooo, anyone have an answer to hit vs. haste? The reason I ask is because I saw that a lot of the ZA drops/2.3 badge rewards have haste, not hit, and with 2.3 a few days away (scheduled for 13th), I'd like to know what to spend my badges on.

Any info would be appreciated.

 

• Vulajin

There are EP values for all stats in the first post, and the 2.3 information section compares the new items to existing ones. I'm not sure what more you could ask for. A list of every item you could conceivably get? Google "Shadowpanther" and you'll find one.

 

• Aldriana

While 200 DPS would indeed be an impressive increase, I'm not sure I'd totally dismiss it as out of hand. The single largest determiner of rogue DPS is the skill of the player. I've seen rogues in blues and greens outDPS rogues in full epics with an identical spec. Ones ability to play a spec *can* make 200 DPS difference.

Now, if we're assuming that the Mutilate rogue in question a) is reasonably competent, b) has been playing the spec for a while, and thus c) generally is playing the spec pretty well, it would be pretty surprising to gain 200 DPS from that point. I'm not going to say impossible, but definitely unlikely

That said, your underlying point - that Mutilate, while it can get reasonably close to combat, tends to run somewhat behind - is totally true, and I have no complaints with. I'm just observing that the anecdotal difference between Mutilate and Combat is probably more strongly colored by the relative skill of the players involved than it is by the underlying supremacy of combat.

 

Squirl

Thats not exactly what I'm asking, what I'm asking is: does haste have the same effect as hit, which is landing more blows on your enemy and getting CP to pop more often.

 

• Aldriana

Haste and Hit both generate more white hits. However, they do so in different amounts, and have significant other effects on rogue mechanics; for instance, hit will increase the number of PPM procs you get (Mongoose, Dragonspine, etc.) while Haste does not. So while their effects are somewhat similar, there are some pretty important differences as well.

 

Squirl

That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for, many thanks!