Roguecraft 101 - Page 13

Raynforce · 10/23/07, 5:04 AM

Originally posted by Vulajin
Zul'Aman itself provides the following items: [Grimgrin Faceguard] is roughly on par with [Helm of the Claw] due to the lack of a meta gem socket.

I would just like to hear more opinions on this. The last I checked on shadowpanther.net, this item is ranked pretty high as a good PVE helm, probably comparable or better then X-11 engineering crafted helm or Deathmantle helm. I have access to Epic gems and Im planning to socket this with 2 Glinting Pyrestones and 1 Rigid Lionseye. Im currently using the X-11 engineering crafted goggles with RED. Am I making a good choice?

Drunk · 10/23/07, 10:11 AM

Well, to my calculations they are pretty close... if you value the +3% increased critical strike damage for 26 ApEP then they are identical. Probably shadowpanther undervalues the meta socket

• Vulajin · 10/23/07, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Krollin

Now I assumed, rightly or wrongly, that the T4 bonus would stack with Ruthlessness but if I wasn't suffering hallucinations then this is not the case.
Is this in fact how it works, the 4 set T4 bonus I mean?

Always be careful with the word "stacking," it can mean a lot of different things in a lot of different contexts. In the case of T4 4pc, it has its own chance to proc, independent of Ruthlessness, which means that you can in fact end up with 2 CP from a finisher. The chance of getting 2 CP is equal to 60% * 15% = 9%. The chance of getting 1 CP is equal to 60% * 85% + 40% * 15% = 57%. The chance of getting 0 CP is equal to 40% * 85% = 34%.

If you average out the number of CP gained on a finisher when you have both Ruthlessness and T4 4pc, it comes out to 0.75.

Originally Posted by Raynforce

I would just like to hear more opinions on this. The last I checked on shadowpanther.net, this item is ranked pretty high as a good PVE helm, probably comparable or better then X-11 engineering crafted helm or Deathmantle helm. I have access to Epic gems and Im planning to socket this with 2 Glinting Pyrestones and 1 Rigid Lionseye. Im currently using the X-11 engineering crafted goggles with RED. Am I making a good choice?

Well, using the weighting system given in the first post and assuming Hyjal gems, Grimgin is worth 40 * 2.2 + 24 * 2.3 + 82 + 23 * 3 = 294.2 (+8 if you socket for the bonus). Netherblade Facemask is worth 28 * 2.2 + 14 * 2.3 + 78 + 23 = 194.8 (+8.8 if you socket for the bonus). So the question is how high you rate Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. Aldriana's sheet puts it at roughly 93.66 AP, meaning that Netherblade is right on par with Grimgrin. This would make Grimgrin inferior to Deathblow and Deathmantle.

Thanks for checking my facts. Next time I update the first post, I'll fix that.

Raynforce · 10/23/07, 3:10 PM

Originally posted by Vulajin
Well, using the weighting system given in the first post and assuming Hyjal gems, Grimgin is worth 40 * 2.2 + 24 * 2.3 + 82 + 23 * 3 = 294.2 (+8 if you socket for the bonus). Netherblade Facemask is worth 28 * 2.2 + 14 * 2.3 + 78 + 23 = 194.8 (+8.8 if you socket for the bonus). So the question is how high you rate Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. Aldriana's sheet puts it at roughly 93.66 AP, meaning that Netherblade is right on par with Grimgrin. This would make Grimgrin inferior to Deathblow and Deathmantle.

I am in a dilemma on this decision because although RED is hard to give up on, the fact that I have to socket 2 blue gems to fulfill its requirement makes me feel as though it cancels out its advantage. Losing 10 hit for 16 stam hurts.

• Vulajin · 10/23/07, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Raynforce

I am in a dilemma on this decision because although RED is hard to give up on, the fact that I have to socket 2 blue gems to fulfill its requirement makes me feel as though it cancels out its advantage. Losing 10 hit for 16 stam hurts.

Again, using Aldriana's weighting, you're looking at a meta gem that grants over 90 AP, versus losing 10 hit (which would be about 23 AP worth). RED is huge, make no mistake. Additionally, you can use your two blue gems to activate socket bonuses that you wouldn't otherwise have gotten, lessening the impact of the 10 hit loss.

Mideci · 10/23/07, 4:38 PM

For what it's worth, Shadowpanther uses a fairly crude raiding system that is a fine "first pass" but not a mathematically correct dps tool. The Rogue Gear and Rogue DPS Spreadsheets take out the opinion quotient and actually measure the worth of a meta-socketed RED or hit or whatnot. They thus gain a level of accuracy the shadowpanther tables don't have.

Raynforce · 10/23/07, 10:53 PM

Thanks for the valuable input guys. Really appreciate it!!

vigorouss · 10/24/07, 12:13 AM

A spec i've never seen mentioned before but I tried out tonight on gruuls was 30/31 seal fate/adrenaline rush. I used this spec. My dps was lower than combat swords, but that was with 5 16ap gems a 20ap gem and a 8 hit gem, if those were all changed to crit gems or more of a dagger 30/31 build was used... I don't think it'd be that bad of a build.

ekval · 10/24/07, 6:07 AM

Originally Posted by vigorouss

A spec i've never seen mentioned before but I tried out tonight on gruuls was 30/31 seal fate/adrenaline rush. I used this spec. My dps was lower than combat swords, but that was with 5 16ap gems a 20ap gem and a 8 hit gem, if those were all changed to crit gems or more of a dagger 30/31 build was used... I don't think it'd be that bad of a build.

Dont think Sealfate can keep up with Combat Potency toe to toe. Cold blood aint that much substained damage either. QR is nice and all but I would still go full combat instead.

tatzuki · 10/24/07, 6:51 AM

Vulajin,

I would like to understand a little be more on the mechanics of expertise. I've been told that dpsing from behind a raid boss, that you can get dodged and thus the significance of this stat. But, I can't really recall if I have in fact seen a dodge from dpsing behind a target, so I'd like to verify the validity of that statement. Given, that if you cannot be dodged from behind the target this would infer that you are at 0% dodge, and x% miss depending only on your hit rating. Would that make expertise be more meaningful only in situations where you may be moving all around your target and dpsing from the front a good amount of the time? While I'm sure there is already some preliminary number crunching going on the ptr regarding this change, is there an AP equivalency for it at this point? How can I quantify using hit vs. expertise when stat weighing gear in this case? Might I wear a set of gear that includes some expertise up to the cap for a fight that moves around alot and only gear that favors hit when doing simple tank and spank?

Also, in regards to armor reduction or penatration, implicitly, you cannot reduce a targets armor mitigation below 0%, so is there a magic number on how much you should keep in mind if you were to use this stat to your advantage?

Thank you in advance, and I appologize if these questions sound ignorant.

exog · 10/24/07, 7:51 AM

Both white and yellow attacks can be dodged by bosses when you attack from behind.
There are no parries or blocks when attacking from behind.
Attacks from the front can be parried, this resets boss swingtimer increasing dps on tank.

I'm sure you have also experienced doing a rupture on a boss yet you still have all your combopoints. Then you do 1-2 more ss before noticing it, fucking up the cycle and wasting cps and so on... Dodge of DOOM!

Armorlevels varies, so theres not ONE magical number of armorpenetration that acts as a CAP. Believe theres a thread on boss armorvalues, there you can subtract your common armordebuffs on a target, then subtract whatever armorpenetration you have on your gear and youll see if you go below 0.

saedo · 10/24/07, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by exog

Both white and yellow attacks can be dodged by bosses when you attack
I'm sure you have also experienced doing a rupture on a boss yet you still have all your combopoints. Then you do 1-2 more ss before noticing it, fucking up the cycle and wasting cps and so on... Dodge of DOOM!

Combat rogues shouldn't be worried about the rupture being dodged. Surprise Attacks!

Zaythi · 10/24/07, 5:27 PM

1 Strength = 1 AP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP
1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP
4 Armor Penetration = 1 AP
1 Haste Rating = 2.3 AP
Gem Socket = 18 AP (unless you know exactly what you'll put in it) / 23 AP (if you have access to Hyjal/BT gems)

Looking at this, and after spending a decent amount of time using the above formulas, I've grown to question them. I know a lot of the AtkEP formulas and AEP formulas vary, but for these, is your "1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP" factor in Combat Potency? Also, is "1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP" derived from using RED?

Few Questions for the crowd:
I've grown very accustomed to constantly viewing this thread for updates. One thing that you haven't touched on is Poisons. I know that DP is approx 45 DPS when fully applied. I've heard that IP is best for your MH, assuming you do not have a Shaman in your group to give WF. Has anyone really done the math on Sharpening Stones vs IP for MH. I'm sure its been done, but can't seem to locate exact numbers anywhere (I do realize that the SS should vary depending on gear, AP, RED, and other factors, vs IP which will/should be constant).

• Vulajin · 10/24/07, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ghli

Looking at this, and after spending a decent amount of time using the above formulas, I've grown to question them. I know a lot of the AtkEP formulas and AEP formulas vary, but for these, is your "1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP" factor in Combat Potency? Also, is "1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP" derived from using RED?

At several times I've been tempted to remove those weightings entirely, as I've found that too much confusion arises from them, and they can vary quite a lot with your spec and gear level. Anyone who would like to comment on whether that would be a good idea is welcome to do so.

To answer the questions you've posed, yes, a standard combat build including Combat Potency was used to derive those weights, as well as a Netherblade Facemask socketed with Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. These conditions would hold for most raiding rogues (at least at or past Kara level).

tatzuki · 10/24/07, 7:10 PM

I think that the weightings are very helpful to most raiding rogues b/c your target audience is typically going to be kara geared and spec'd combat. Before reading this post I was stuck on simply obtaining gear that would only help me reach the hit cap, passing on gear that was potentially a huge upgrade to me. After taking advice from this post and using this weighting system, I have found a significant upgrade to my own performance in raids and really appreciate what you have done. As long as ppl understand that these findings are based upon certain assumptions, there really shouldn't be any confusion here. Thanks for your hard work.