I totally agree aswell Aldriana, the difference between a bad mutilate rogue and a good mutilate rogue is huge. When the same rogue who can allready play both combat and mutilate well sees a large dps increase, it comes down to the inferiority of the spec. Which is a disappointment, because there are so many awesome mutilate daggers in T6, and the spec is so fun.

No one has proven the inferiority of Mutilate. All we have is anecdotal evidence from people playing the build in a way that "feels" right. I'm sure many BM Hunters would tell you that it "feels" better to pewpew with Illidan's bow than with a Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle. I'm sure many Enhancement Shaman would tell you it "feels" better to off-hand a 91 DPS 1.4-speed weapon than a 71 DPS 2.6-speed weapon. Some Resto Druids feel that they are ideal raid healers, some guilds feel Curse of Recklessness will cause your tank to take additional damage, some Paladins feel that Devotion Aura is overrated. The purpose of these boards is to separate these feelings from fact.

I am working on a true Mutilate model -- it's coming along slowly, but when it's done, if the math says that Mutilate is inferior to Combat, okay, fine! No big deal. But until then, lets not assume that speculation, conjecture, anecdotes, and personal feelings are substitutes for facts.

I was just wondering if anybody had the numbers on rating to percentage. I saw that hit rating was mentioned in the OP but none of the others. "It takes approximately 15.77 hit rating to gain 1% chance to hit." What are the numbers for crit, dodge, etc.? TIA

Combat rating system - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

New OH Fist drop in ZA (2.3) : [Fury]
So with is 2.6 speed, very nice OH for Hemo spec

Hemo rogues still prefer fast offhands, assuming comparable base dps and stats) for poison procs (and personally for Sword Spec procs).

Since the mainhand is also 2.6-speed the ZA offhand is better for fury warriors, because they may get 4 hasted hits instead of just 3 when flurry procs if their MH and OH are the same speed (or at least so I read on the [Melee Combat] How does Flurry work? thread).

Forgive me if this has been shown elsewhere in the thread, but has there been talk of rotations and gemming for the new proposed Hemo builds in 2.3?
I'm assuming that hit rating is the number one stat to go for as well as a 1s/5r rotation because of the cheaper cost of Hemo. I could be wrong though as I've not had any experience raiding with Hemo.
I'm also asking this assuming (perhaps I'm being too presumptuous?) that sword spec is being taken for such a build.

Chestrcheeto due to lacking Combat Potency you will rather use 5s5r cycles. For 11/28/22 no re-gemming is needed, 11/20/30 suggests gemming heavier into agility than hit.

So, I apologize if this was posted, as I have scanned every page of the thread and have not found a answer. Has anyone gone on the PTR to test hemo builds vs standard 19/42 type of combat swords? Any info that is better for personal dps compared to raid dps? I am really interested to know if anyone has put the math to the test to see if a same gear hemo has more personal DPS then a combat sword.. assuming the overall raid dps would increase with hemo already.

Try using the search feature.
I clicked on the search link at the top there and typed in "hemo", chose "search titles only" and to look in the Class mechanics forums.

I know its almost like rocket science.

I've attempted to locate concrete information on the dodge rate of lvl 73 bosses (or average if the dodge rate differs from boss to boss), which would be useful in determining the expertise cap, if it's even obtainable with the limited selection of currently available gear with expertise. I have not been able to locate this information.

If getting close or exceeding the expertise cap is practical, it would reduce the finishing moves anti-dodge value of Suprise Attacks tremendously.

Regardless if the cap is obtainable, Surprise Attacks has lost some of it's value with the introduction of 2.3, but I am ultimately curious as to how much and if by a large margin then should we be looking to see the talent altered?

The principal value of Surprise Attacks was never the fact that it made finishers undodgeable. The DPS benefit of the talent is almost entirely due to the +10% damage to specials it provides.

Consider: for a finisher costing 25 energy, a 5% (or so) chance to be dodged means that 5% of the time, you'll need to spend an extra 25 energy. When you add this up, this means your SnD effectively costs an extra 1.3 energy or so. Now, SnD isn't dodgeable in the first place, so we're basically just talking about dodged Ruptures. With, say, a 3s5r cycle, you're thus gaining an extra 1.3 energy every 22 seconds, or about 1 energy every 17 seconds. Note that natural regen in this period is roughly 220 energy; hence Surprise Attacks basically increases your energy regen by about half a percent, and thus boosts your yellow damage by roughly half a percent.

The other aspect of the talent boosts your yellow damage by 10%. Thus, the benefit granted by Surprise Attacks is about 95% due to the damage increase and only 5% due to the undodgeability. Hence, even if you could become passively undodgeable with Expertise (which, frankly, would be pretty hard to do and probably not worth trying for)... Surprise Attacks would not be significantly less good than it is now.

ermm, thought i could get some help here.

the story goes like this... i currently use [Deathmantle Legguards] (with [Design: Shifting Nightseye]) and in the latest MH raid i got force to loot [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons]

shady dealer's advantage is 11 more AP and 62 more HP.
plus 175 armor penetration.

and the disadvantages are a lose of 1.20% crit

in my opinion, a lose of 1.20% crit is quite a big lose, and it's not worth losing it for the armor penetration.
but since i'm not too learned in theory crafting, i'd be grateful if someone could supply me with some facts on what's better.

You can go to the first post in this thread to where the equivalency table is and see that 1.2% crit is worth in the area of 47 ap versus 11ap and the 47 ap equiv in armor pen shady dealers have. Shady pantaloons are a tiny up over t5 and by that a dissapointingly tiny up over skulkers when gemmed with all hit :P.

So you'd consider that a downgrade if you broke 4 piece T5 to get it?

i got only 3 pieces of T5, so i don't break a set bonus.

anyway, so you're saying this is a bit better then what i have?
seems a bit awkward to me :x
thing is a use mostly evis for my finishers, and i'm afried less crit will reduce their efficiency.

You really really really want to read the first post of this thread. It does a good job of explaining why your love of evis is unrequited and not worth worrying about. The efficiency of evis is already shot :P


Edit: Here's the quote from p1

"On Eviscerate: at nearly all reachable levels of gear, Rupture will be superior to Eviscerate on any target that isn't immune to bleeds. At 5 CP, Rupture deals 1000 damage plus 24% of your AP for 25 energy, or 40 damage plus 0.96% of your AP per energy. At 5 CP and with T5 2pc, Eviscerate deals 1245 damage plus 15% of your AP for 35 energy, or roughly 35.57 damage plus 0.43% of your AP per energy. Applying 3/3 Improved Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression (121% modifier), 40% crit and RED (142.4% modifier), and 30% armor reduction (assuming a typical debuffed raid boss), Eviscerate comes to 42.90 damage plus 0.52% of your AP per energy. Thus, Eviscerate holds an advantage of 2.90 base damage per energy, but Rupture gains an additional 0.44% of your AP. At this rate, it takes only 656 AP for Rupture to overcome Eviscerate's base advantage. Simply, in any situation where you can Rupture, you should Rupture."

Defenitely. 4pc T5 is actually pretty good; as a general rule it doesn't make sense to break it until you can get 2pc T6.

Well, the first question would be "why are you mostly using Evis, anyway?". But moving past that for the moment...

1) Evis gains damage from Armor Penetration as well; hence, while it may lose *some* damage from the loss of crit, it's not going to be an overwhelming amount.

2) Evis is only, what, 5% of your damage output anyway? So even if it does effect you Evis damage a bit, it's not that big a deal.

3) Fundamentally, what you want to do is maximize *total* DPS output, not DPS from any one move. The conversion factors in the first post are designed to estimate this, and by those estimates you will do more damage than with T5. So if you're looking to maximize DPS, and you're not breaking 4/5 to wear them, you should wear them. It's really just that simple.

Are Glinting Pyrestones/Rigid Lionseye for [Skulker's Greaves] worth it if I'm in a position in BT/Hyjal where I won't be able to get anything but the Shady Dealer Pantaloons (bleh!) and T6 will be a good month or two off, even if it drops every week. (I'll be far back in the drop status)

I agree with most of what you're saying with regard to where the benefit from the Surprise Attacks talent comes from, and its relative value with regard to dodged finishers.

But to claim that it's difficult to reach or come close to the dodge cap through gear is misleading. Take 3 items; [Shoulderpads of the Stranger], [Gloves of the Searing Grip] and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Together they will give 53 Expertise Rating in 2.3, which becomes 13 Expertise. Add in the 10 from the Weapon Expertise tlent and you have 23 Expertise, which gives you a 5.75% lower chance to be dodged, on all attacks. Humans wielding swords or maces get an extra 1.25% (5 Expertise). That's up to 7% dodge negation from 3 items, a talent and a racial.

I know that the dodge cap itself is yet to be determined but it's thought to be roughly 6.5% against a level 73 mob (as stated in the first post of this thread). If that's right then it's certainly possible to achieve for some, and to get very close for others. The items in question are hardly unnatatinable either; the shoulders come from Hydross, the gloves from Al'ar and the belt from Vashj.

Just use the table in the first post, this thread is here for people to use to help themselves. Please :P

if you put 3 10 hit gems in skulkers you get:
58 hit rating = 135.72
32 agi = 64 ap
64 ap = 64 ap

263.72

Shady dealers are:
50 agi = 100 ap
102 ap = 102 ap
-175 armor = 47.25

249.25

Going from rigid dawnstones to rigid lions eye is something like 14.04 ap so I was wrong in an earlier post. According to the numbers in the beginning of this thread, skulkers are superior til t6 by about .43 ap. With blue gems in Skulker's and t6 legs as your first piece of t6, Slayer's would only be about a 38 ap upgrade.

This doesn't take into account any sort of optimal hit rating or set bonus though.

I think that's fundamentally a question of what your guild's policy on epic gems is. My guild generally only gives them out for T6 and best-in-slot gear; as such, it would not be possible to get them for something like Skulker's Greaves. However, if your guild is less stingy with them, it may make sense.