Roguecraft 101 - Page 151

Feist-Mok · 04/02/08, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Scrith

Yes but the main reason Belt of One Hundred Deaths is higher than, say, the new Belt of the Silent Path is due to the expertise. If you don't need the expertise anymore because you have the new trinket, all of a sudden One Hundred Deaths isn't as good as Silent Path. This is all I was trying to get at...to move away from this notion that something like One Hundred Deaths has the best rating as is therefore the best belt for all rogues, to consider that one component of its rating can now be rendered useless by a new trinket, and in that case it isn't so great anymore.

You're missing the point though: if we ignore the expertise cap for a moment there are a fairly wide range of gear setups where BoOD is better than the #2 belt option by a larger margin than the shard of contempt is better than the next best trinket option. Thus given that only using one or the other is viable, the trinket slot offers a better 'second in slot' and thus is generally a better place to cut expertise. This will of course vary given your other gear options and availiable upgrade paths. If you have neither a WSC or ashtongue trinket, yes Deep Shadow or the new badge belt + shard of contempt will be better than one-hundred deaths and a Tsunami Talisman or whatever.

• Aldriana · 04/02/08, 5:57 PM

Right... but the point is, it works both ways; if you're using the trinket, it's true that the Vashj belt isn't as good since you don't need the Expertise as much anymore; but it's also true that if you're using the Vashj belt, the trinket isn't as good because you're not using all the Expertise it gives. Thus, the appropriate way to look at it is to consider which has the most reasonable alternative, and take the piece without Expertise that is as close as possible to the piece that has it.

For instance: consider my current situation. I have T6 boots, the Vashj belt, and lets pretend for the moment that I have a Shard of Contempt (even though I don't). All in all these provide 93 Expertise Rating, aka 23 Expertise, aka 7 more than I need. Where, then, shall I drop the 7 Expertise?

Option 1: Drop WEx to get under the cap. This replaces Expertise with... nothing, and is thus no better than just being capped (well, it gives a utility talent, but no DPS, so we won't count it).

Option 2: Drop T6 boots. Well, T6 boots are about 120 EP better than the 2nd best option - which I didn't even have. Even if you assume the Expertise on these boots does nothing, they're still better than my old Nyn'jah Tabi's. Thus, these aren't going anywhere either.

Option 3: Vashj Belt. The next belt down would be either Deep Shadow or Shadowwalker's, since I don't have a Don Alejandro's, and Silent Path isn't available yet. As such, I lose about 25 EP getting this... and would still be (slightly) Expertise Capped.

Option 4: Shard of Contempt. Well, both Ashtongue and WSC are about 25 points behind, and I would no longer be capped by so doing, so this proves to be the smallest DPS loss; hence, I'm best off refraining to use this trinket for the moment, and sticking with what I have.

Now, will there be situations where it's better to use Shard and drop the Expertise elsewhere? Certainly. It's just that with Silent Path not yet available, those people with the Vashj belt tend to be better off sticking with it; those people with T6 boots are definitely better off keeping those; and those people that are Human don't get a lot of choice in the matter. So the correct thing to say about Shard is: it's a good trinket for many people, but not everyone can make use of it.

Shaker · 04/02/08, 6:01 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

The whole "higher than average armor" think is a myth. I tested both on PTR and live realms and came back with armor being ~7700, so I would assume he has 7685 just like many other bosses. The only difference is, every other sustained DPS fight since Tidewalker has had ~6200, so it seems high by comparison.

In a discussion on this, I was directed towards a WWS where the MT landed a 132 point ThunderClap on Brut. Given the armor formula (from the boss armor thread), that means, at that time, Brut had 46.3% mitigation (fully improved TClap should hit for 246, and I verified that the character in question had fully improved TClap). 46.3% mitigation gives us:

.463 = A / (A + 10600)

.537A = 4907.8
A = 9139.3

So at that point he had at least 9000 armor (I believe but cannot confirm STRICTLY that only Feral Faerie Fire was on him at the time). Regardless, there's no way to get such a low Thunder Clap value without him having AT LEAST that much armor. Any variables I can imagine (buffs to the tank, debuffs on the mob) only point to a HIGHER armor value.

I think this bears further looking into, at any rate.

• Aldriana · 04/02/08, 6:25 PM

Defensive Stance means TClap does a base 221.4 damage; this means boss mitigation is only 40.4%, hence armor is ~7150. Faerie Fire is 610, which would put us right around 7700.

Assuming the boss has 7685 armor like others, it would thus be 7075 after FF, the damage done would then be 246 * .9 * 10557.5/(7075+10557.5) = 132.56 = 132 damage.

Seems right to me.

Shaker · 04/02/08, 7:04 PM

Doh, I totally missed D stance. Thanks for pointing that out. Problem solved!

jarek771 · 04/03/08, 12:01 AM

Okay...all i keep hearing is HIT HIT HIT! So what i did was went out and got plenty of hit, was top on meters. Cool right? Wrong! I only beat the Mutilate rogue by 2000dmg (aprox) with a sustained 690dps (aprox). So then i went out got rid of all the +8 hit gems and got myself some +4hit +4agi gems. Next Mag shot i was still, top meters, but this time by about 30k. Cool right? Wrong still!

This is were i cry (T.T).

Anyhow i was able to sustain about 730dps (witch is a nice improvement +40 to my dps is something not to complain about but i am haha) Anyhow, other then getting the exulted Scryer reputation enchant, and getting rid of my rather "nubly" druid chest piece([Shadowprowler's Chestguard]) for ether the [Chestguard of the Conniver] or the Zul Aman chest piece (name has slipped my mind but i know its on the hawk) what do i need to do here? I mean i have herd to find a "happy medium between Hit Rating and Attack Power. So i have come to you well played ladies and gentlemen for some input on what to do here.

What is the happy medium?

BTW this is my progression list:

(if you are looking at my jutsu look at Eve of Darkness on Medivh. That is the guild i progressed in. Armory has my guild wrong im in Blood Rain and we are working our way up to the top :-D)

Early/mid SSC
Early/mid TK
Kara
Za
Gruul
Mag

Acyrith · 04/03/08, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by jarek771

Okay...all i keep hearing is HIT HIT HIT! So what i did was went out and got plenty of hit, was top on meters. Cool right? Wrong! I only beat the Mutilate rogue by 2000dmg (aprox) with a sustained 690dps (aprox). So then i went out got rid of all the +8 hit gems and got myself some +4hit +4agi gems. Next Mag shot i was still, top meters, but this time by about 30k. Cool right? Wrong still!

This is were i cry (T.T).

Anyhow i was able to sustain about 730dps (witch is a nice improvement +40 to my dps is something not to complain about but i am haha) Anyhow, other then getting the exulted Scryer reputation enchant, and getting rid of my rather "nubly" druid chest piece([Shadowprowler's Chestguard]) for ether the [Chestguard of the Conniver] or the Zul Aman chest piece (name has slipped my mind but i know its on the hawk) what do i need to do here? I mean i have herd to find a "happy medium between Hit Rating and Attack Power. So i have come to you well played ladies and gentlemen for some input on what to do here.

What is the happy medium?

BTW this is my progression list:

(if you are looking at my jutsu look at Eve of Darkness on Medivh. That is the guild i progressed in. Armory has my guild wrong im in Blood Rain and we are working our way up to the top :-D)

Early/mid SSC
Early/mid TK
Kara
Za
Gruul
Mag

So the answer to your question is basically, look at the first post of this very thread. It covers the equivalence values of the different stats and based on those you can see what is going to be the best for you. What it comes down to is that stacking stats doesn't work, you need a balance of AP, Crit, Hit, Expertise, etc to be doing the best dps that you can.

Your best bet is to grab one of the spreadsheets list at the bottom of that first post and plug your gear in, the sheets should be able to give you suggestions on how to enchant, gem, etc as well as what gear to pick up that may be within your reach currently.

Greymist1 · 04/03/08, 2:38 AM

Originally Posted by Acyrith

So the answer to your question is basically, look at the first post of this very thread. It covers the equivalence values of the different stats and based on those you can see what is going to be the best for you. What it comes down to is that stacking stats doesn't work, you need a balance of AP, Crit, Hit, Expertise, etc to be doing the best dps that you can.

I'd add a caveat to this: for most rogues (any combat rogue below the hit cap), stacking hit in gem slots is a win. The way item budgeting works is why you want a mix on your items, since you end up with more DPS stat points overall than an equivalent item (same ilvl) with fewer stat types. But for gems, just gem for the stat which is most valuable to you, unless there's a really good socket bonus to pick up (and of course you also need to toss in some gems to activate your metagem). Hit is usually the most valuable stat for rogues (out of any stat which can be had in a gem slot, anyways).

Aéquitas · 04/03/08, 3:47 AM

Your max hit also depends on wether your guild raidas with a moonkin with impr fairy fire. Mine does sometimes and the extra 3 hit I get from it makes sure I always try to have around 296 hit.

296 hit + 20 hit (food) + 47 hit (impr. FF) gets me 363 hit.

If I get alot of hit from gear then my second cap would be 316 hit and then use 20 agi food.

Ashere · 04/03/08, 3:48 AM

+hit is good, but there's basically no fixed amount you should have anywhere, it all depends on the gear you have. If an item gives you +8 AP just for getting 3 gems in the right colors, then you're a fool if you put an 8 hit gem in a red socket. An 8 hit gem may beat a 16 AP gem in dps value, it won't beat 16 + 8 = 24AP unless your AP is already very high while your hit is extremely horrible. For a Kara-only rogue, neither my AP or my hit are too shabby, and it seems that around 18AP vs 8hit the two even out.

And I'm not even talking about agi gems or other possible set bonusses. The simple answer to this is: get your spreadsheets, and compare.

evl · 04/03/08, 3:58 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Option 4: Shard of Contempt. Well, both Ashtongue and WSC are about 25 points behind, and I would no longer be capped by so doing, so this proves to be the smallest DPS loss; hence, I'm best off refraining to use this trinket for the moment, and sticking with what I have.

I'm in the situation where I have 100 Deaths and I'm using Ashtongue and WSC, I was definitely planning on picking up a shard but even though the current spreadsheet puts Ashtongue slightly above WSC I'm more inclined to keep my WSC. I'm currently on Brutalus with my guild so my question is, which one do I drop?

• Aldriana · 04/03/08, 4:39 AM

I prefer Ashtongue to WSC for Brutallus, Gurtogg, and Reliquary, but WSC for almost everything else (given that most other things are either interrupted, 6200 armor, or both - which favors WSC relative to AToL).

Grung · 04/03/08, 4:50 AM

Looking at the EP values in the first post, and the buffs selected, shouldn't STR be 1.10 when you have kings in the bufflist ?

• Vulajin · 04/03/08, 4:56 AM

Originally Posted by Grung

Looking at the EP values in the first post, and the buffs selected, shouldn't STR be 1.10 when you have kings in the bufflist ?

Yes. Whenever I next update the post, I'll be sure to fix that.

Roefyll · 04/03/08, 5:19 AM

I've done some preliminary testing of the proc rate on the Fists of Fury combo, [Claw of Molten Fury] and [Fist of Molten Fury]

It seems to be around 5.8 PPM from the samples I've taken while doing dailies, unless I'm reading the WWS wrong. I'm very pleased, as it looks like the new fist weapons are still a fair bit off.

Ongoing testing: Rofyll - WWS

EDIT: Damnit, I ruined it by bandaging.