Xoya

Question:

On the topic of maces, given their improvement in 2.3 and available weapons in T6 content I'm assuming they will be desired above all other types of specs. If this is the case, how does [Dragonstrike] compare to [Syphon of the Nathrezim]?

 

Dontmindme

When I did the testing, both when Surprise Attacks was first added and recently when I saw that the spreadsheets were calling the combination multiplicative, I did not take combat logs. But quite frankly, this is one instance where a combat log tells you little.

You can't tell from the combat log whether I'm attacking Level 1 Young Ragged Wolves or Level 2. If you get lucky and get a crit and a hit with your kicks, it takes a minimum of 2 to demonstrate armor and using a 1-3 damage dagger, it doesn't take many swings to see min and max damage for both normal hits and crits. It's very easy to replicate. But most of the important information doesn't show in the combat log, like your base AP, equipment, etc.

I have since switched to swords and now have Murder which has been showing some unusual behavior at times given that Wolves are beasts, so I cannot currently repeat this on Live without blowing 20g respecing (and I'm cash tight after buying some LW patterns recently. I plan to do a more comprehensive analysis if I can ever get a character copied to the PTR to see which talent synergies are additive and which are multiplicative and checking again how the PTR is handling Murder. Until that time, I have done testing with this. I could not find a post anywhere on these forums showing where someone tested that they multiplicative. It seems people are assuming they multiply.

I reported this information [Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet
You can verify my math...

The weapon in question was the 1.6 speed 1-3 dagger Dirk sold by the vendor.

 

Bael

Does this apply even when Windfury is unavailable?

We are low on raiding shamans and typically rely on poisons; I've always used Deadly Mainhand, Instant Offhand in the (perhaps mistaken) belief that the faster attack speed of my offhand will generate more poison applications. Does factoring in the extra hits of Sinister Strike/Sword Specialisation outweigh the faster speed? Windfury being unavailable, is it worth applying Instant to the mainhand instead?

If so, at what point in the discrepancy between mainhand-offhand speeds are you more likely to achieve a higher rate of Instant procs with the offhand?

 

• Vulajin

I don't know if you can "assume" that maces will be desired above other specs. 5% additional critical damage is awesome (I love my RED as much as anyone else), but so are extra attacks. I'll get back to you later on this, though, I'll see if I can't whip up a quick model of the new mace spec and do some comparisons.

Both Aldriana's spreadsheet and my spreadsheet seem to indicate that, for my combination of weapons ([Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]), IP/DP is a couple DPS better than DP/IP. The difference is certainly too small to be noticeable. I'd say leave it up to taste. Note, I tried switching to [Blade of Savagery] for my offhand and the difference was still in favor of IP/DP.

Will it be different with other weapon types? Possibly. You're more than welcome to check the spreadsheets yourself. Personally, I think the napkin math to figure out the difference between DP/IP and IP/DP is a bit too complicated, it's much better to just use one of the excellent spreadsheets we have available to us.

 

• Vulajin

Okay, did a quick model assuming that mace spec functions additively with RED (I have no idea if this will be the case, but it seems to be the most likely assumption to make). Started with [Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] as my control set. Then I switched to [Dragonstrike] and [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker] and lost 35 DPS. Upgraded the main hand to [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and lost another 11 DPS. Switched the offhand to [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] and gained back 16.5 DPS.

Long story short, looks like mace spec will be right up there with fists in 2.3, but swords and fist+sword will still win out.

 

Littlefinger

I have a question about your assessment on the gems. You constantly say that the ones with agility is superior to the ones with only attack power. For example. 8 Agi should be prefered over 16 AP and 4 Agi 6 Stam should be prefered over 8 AP 6 Stam. However when I do the same comparison in the rogue DPS spreadsheet then the AP ones always come out ahead. So, which is it?

For reference I'm a T4 (few T5) Sword spec rogue with Spiteblade and Merciless Quickblade.

 

Tryss

Don't forget [Icon of Unyielding Courage] is a good pre-raid trinket, as well.

 

vokzhen

I think this is the best place for this. I've heard (mainly from the 2.1 Theorycrafting thread) that Mutilate falls significantly behind combat, due to some change in 2.1. Can anyone elaborate on this? I just haven't been able to find any solidly-stated reason why it falls behind besides "it just does;" maybe something about haste and Combat Potency, but I don't *think* that's a big concern until haste rating gets more common on gear, and something about less out of Windfury but I don't know why unless running with DP/DP.

 

• Vulajin

Oops, sorry for not getting back to you on this. My answer would be that it can vary greatly depending on your current gear and the buffs with which you evaluate your DPS. In general, I'd do two things:

1) compare the output from both spreadsheets to make sure it's not just a difference in the modeling
2) value the opinion given by the spreadsheets slightly higher than general rules such as the ones I've given

Guidelines are great, but don't necessarily trust them as law. If the spreadsheets tell you that AP gems are better at your gear level and with the buffs you get in raids, then go with AP gems.

Will add, thanks for reminding me.

 

Marvie

"On gem selection: only gem for socket bonuses that provide offensive stats (hit rating, crit rating, AP), and only if they are achievable using solely red and yellow gems. If you are socketing for a bonus, always use [Rigid Dawnstone] in yellow sockets and [Glinting Noble Topaz] in red sockets, unless you are nearing the hit cap, in which case use [Glinting Noble Topaz] in yellow sockets and [Delicate Living Ruby] in red sockets."

Curious, why is Glinting (4hit 4agi) a better choice than Wicked (4crit 8AP)?

Just wondering because I'm at 300hit right now and any gem slots I have to fill I planned on using Wicked. If there is a reason Glinting is superior I would love to be enlightened.

 

Amaevisane

Attack power and crit gems should not be used in Rogue Gear, unless the AP or crit gem is greater than a Delicate Living Ruby. A Glinting Noble Topaz is used in a red or yellow slot to help close the gap of your hit cap. I myself use the Crimson Sun (24 ap ruby) in my Netherblade chest, as I am hit capped at 300. The Crimson Sun is far superior dps compared to a Delicate Living Ruby. I chose the Pulsing Amethyst for my Deathmantle pants. It's a wonderful gem for the slot, again I am hit capped. I'm considering using a Stone of Blades (12 crit rating dawnstone) in something when I can squeeze it in.

A Delicate Living Ruby (8 agi) gives you 8 attack power, 4.4 crit, plus dodge and armor. The Paladin blessing Kings increases agility by 10%. Kings does not increase ap or crit, only base stats.

I laugh (on the inside) every time I see a rogue using a Wicked Noble Topaz in the red slot of their Netherblade chest. There is never a time it would make sense. If you need a yellow gem to make your meta work, chances are you are low on hit, and therefore a Glinting Noble Topaz is a far superior choice to a Wicked Noble Topaz.

(If you were to armory me at the moment, I'm wearing my Thalasian Wildercloak, and not the Drape of the Dark Reavers, which is what I wear to raid. Also mace spec, as the guild I am applying to does not raid again until Tuesday)

 

Drunk

Check out buffed dps. Stacking AP over agi gives you bigger boost when unbuffed/solo grinding, but buffed with BoK, agi takes the lead. And we care only for raids dps anyway so Vulajin is correct

 

Lunaviel

Using the simple AP conversions from the topic gives us:

4 crit @ 1.6 AP = 6.4 AP

This gives Wicked a total value of 6.4 + 8 = 14.4 AP

Compare to Glinting:

4 hit @ 2.3 AP = 9.2 AP
4 agi @ 2.2 AP = 8.4 AP

Total for Glinting is 9.2 + 8.4 = 17.6 AP - clearly superior.

This of course assumes that you have not reached the hit cap, at which point the value of hit approaches 0 giving Wicked a clear advantage over glinting. For red sockets the Delicate (8 agi) still beats Wicked of course.

What I really want to know is where the value of 2.3 AP for 1 haste rating comes from. Using the rogue DPS spreadsheet, I get a raid-buffed value of 0.82 AEP for haste, which translated to AP is roughly 1.7 (AP clocks in at .49 AEP for me).

 

mmaker

Anyone done any calculation of the new mace spec with 5% more crit damage?

 

bossmonster

edit: I'm stupid.

 

Kellhus

Comparing the talon to dragonstrike is rough, given the talons nice pve stats. How much of the dps loss can be purely attributed to a stat loss, and how much comes from the spec change?

Also, since mace and claw will be very similar in specialization, and the mace does have a haste proc still --does this mean that a Mace/Sword build becomes as valid for dps as a claw/sword post 2.3?

 

• Cluey

While not made clear the person you are quoting is referring to an equivalence of AP not direct AP.
I expect if you read more of the theory threads around here you would have picked that up.

 

Lunaviel

I have to admit the 1 agi = 2 AP puzzled me a bit, especially the 2.2 with kings part. However, given that my gear currently yields .49 AEP for AP according to the rogue gear sheet, assuming that 1 agi = 2 AP isn't outrageous as a rule of thumb. This is stat weighting we're talking about after all, even if using AP as a unit might lead to misunderstandings.

 

• Vulajin

Well, using Talon as a baseline functions to show how a mace build using T5-equivalent weapons would compare to a sword build using T5-equivalent. Obviously there aren't any maces with better stats, which I think is the pertinent info. You can see from the comparison to the Syphon that Dragonstrike is likely the best of the bunch, although I have no clue at all what kind of proc rate the Rod has, so I can't fairly model that.

My rough estimates show that a mace/sword build will be quite competitive, very slightly behind fist/sword, where fist/sword is very slightly behind sword/sword. All these estimates assume that mace spec's 5% crit damage functions additively with RED. If it functions differently, the numbers will be skewed.

Also, check your PM's momentarily.

Regarding people commenting on "1 Agi = 2 AP"...I'm confused as to how you could call me on that, but not get confused when I went on to equate crit rating and hit rating to AP amounts. Obviously the table is meant to value the DPS contribution from any stat in terms of the amount of pure AP it would take to get equal DPS contribution.

If anyone would like to help me correct my wording for that portion so that it's more clear and I don't have people jumping on me in the future for "spouting misinformation," please feel free.

 

• Cluey

While I understood what you meant it won't be obviously clear to new readers, given that this is a summary post to get new people up to speed perhaps you should note it in the first post along with your other abbreviations?
Even better would be to use a different abbreviation, maybe APE or APe, the e/E for equivalence?
*I think there is/was a system using AEP but my brain is not clear on this anymore, I also seem to recall the rating you are doing to be different from the way that system works.

I know with the feral druid stuff we ended up using KP (kitty points) to avoid the confusion but that was a while ago on the official forums which I haven't visited in a while, the druids here just use straight AP as well.

 

dukes

Probably the main problem is that Agi = 2AP is what used to be true for hunters. If it had been a weird value like Agi = 2.24782 then it would've been clear that it's an equivalence.

AEP is Agility Equivalence Points, which was equating everything to 1 point of agility instead of 1 point of AP. AEP values are generally less than 1, while APe (or whatever) are generally more than 1. AP is generally easier to equate to anyway, as agility has crit involved which is always a bit funny (lots of modifiers because of RED and other stuff).

 

◊ Shaker

Vul,

I'd reword into something like "AEP" or "AtkEP" (I personally prefer AtkEP for the calculation you're doing, as it's "Attack Power Equivalency Points"). Hold on, I'll just copy the section and edit, and if you like it, you can just copy it back into the original post.

or if you prefer AEP (though personally I don't because I get that confused with Agility Equivalency ..):

 

Manuva

@Vul/rogue community,

Recently I've been reading everywhere about combat sword dps in comparison to combat dagger dps, and in every comparison drawn swords comes out top hands down. Now when I first saw these posts popping up on the official rogue forums about everyone turning to swords I stuck it through with daggers, as generally I don't beleive anything on those BS forums.

I am not benign to the fact that on paper swords > daggers (combat) and will not flat out deny objective truths. However the amount of dps I still produce easily equals the other two combat rogues in my guild (who are both swords). Comparing our profiles you will see that we are pretty much all equally geared:

The World of Warcraft Armory

The World of Warcraft Armory

The World of Warcraft Armory

(I would appreciate no commenting about improving my current stats - I know 306 +hit is far from optimal with the amount of AP I have, but there are some major upgrades in store so right now there would be no use in re-socketing my gear accordingly as I usually do if I receive upgrades).

So I am just inquiring as to WHY combat daggers is such a no go for most people, even in mid-high end BT? In my experience it's as viable as combat swords.

Thanks in advance for answers,

Manuva.

P.S. Sorry for taking it slightly off topic, but I thought posting a new thread about this is pointless.

 

◊ Shaker

Everyone has their rockstar players and their not-as-rockstar players. You'd see a DPS boost by going swords, and you'd still beat those guys. Your example proves that player skill > spec and gear, and that spec/gear only make a difference when they're either drastically different (i.e. T6 vs T4 gear or really crappy spec), or when player skill is very similar.

I can show you WWS of fights where my holdout frost mage beats the snot out of a similarly equipped fire mage - but that doesn't mean frost beats fire. It means he's pushing really hard, and my fire mage isn't.

Edit to add: I by no means am suggesting "You should go swords" - I (personally) think daggers is within acceptable limits of swords as far as raid viability, and you're certainly proving that you deserve your spot - I'm merely addressing the fallacy raised by "Well, I do more damage with X spec" - small sample size. Also, seeing as there's what, 7(?) dagger drops through the raid game, vs the 4 sword drops (Netherspite, Morogrim, Sharhaz, Anetheron..) pre-Illidan, it's always good to have a little spread so that more gear gets used. :P

As far as your fellow rogues, Ciara has great gear that's just gemmed all wrong - Blazefury is also a less optimal offhand (wish that wasn't the case, buut). She's got +7 agi on her boots, that's .. a pre-BC enchant. Solid Star of Elune is never a rogue purchase, except maybe for resist or pvp gear (and even then . . . ). Her spec doesn't have any fundamental errors, though having Imp Evisc, I get a funny feeling she might be using it too much, which would be less than optimal.

Eldorian has good gear, and generally good gem choices (I'd skip the 4crit/6sta for 4agi/6sta gems..) His talent spec is darn similar to Ciara's, so he might be overusing Evisc as well.

Since I'm into the armory critique game, I looked at your gear - it IS somewhat surprising that you're beating those two out, seeing as your gear is mostly T4 level, whereas theirs is mostly T5+. You do have a few flaws in your gemming as well - you need 2 blues to activate your meta gem, yet you do so with a red slot in your hat that has a great set bonus (bad), and then 1 slot in a belt with 2 blue slots and a decent set bonus. Also, the set bonus on the NB breastplate is really nice as well, so you have 3 blue slots that could take blue gems without costing you anything, and you're utilizing one of them... :P Specwise, I think you'd see some improvement (mostly from the accessability of being able to run 1s/3r) in moving 2/2 Murder into 2/3 Ruthlessness. Other than that, looks totally clean.

Probably more than you asked for, but heyyy, why not. :P

 

Takkara

Of course combat daggers are VIABLE, that's not the issue in the least. At worst, combat swords are roughly equivalent to combat daggers. At best, they are superior in DPS. Now let's think in addition the utility that one gains from that. You can go deeper into the assassination tree for more DPS gains and you are free from positional restraints.

In Hyjal, you sometimes have to tank the caster trash, sometimes you can't safely get behind a boss, etc.

When you add the utility to the DPS, combat swords comes out as a pretty clear winner in the overall best raid department. However, this does not mean combat daggers is not viable, of course it is, but it's not optimal, or in many cases, friendly to manage.

As to why you stay competitive/beat the other rogues in your guild, there's a number of reasons, all anecdotal. Maybe you run a tighter rotation, pay more attention to CD's, get more procs, pop more potions, etc. There's a number of intangibles that can cause identically geared rogues with identical specs to perform not identically.

Hopefully this answers your question.