I understand how Weapon Expertise impacts hit/miss/dodged/parried. However, I recall that the old weapon expertise also reduced the loss of white dps from glancing blows. I also know that things changed with patch 2.2 But I can not find any recent information on glancing blows.
Question: does Weapon Expertise still have an impact on glancing blows ?
If so, what are the details ? Percentage of glancing blows reduced ? Less damage loss per hit ?
No effect. Actually even before this patch weapon skill had no effect on glancing blows. Changed it a while ago so it only provided some hit and crit for the boss mobs.
I understand how Weapon Expertise impacts hit/miss/dodged/parried. However, I recall that the old weapon expertise also reduced the loss of white dps from glancing blows. I also know that things changed with patch 2.2 But I can not find any recent information on glancing blows.
Question: does Weapon Expertise still have an impact on glancing blows ?
If so, what are the details ? Percentage of glancing blows reduced ? Less damage loss per hit ?
First, Weapon Skill (Old stat) took care of dodges, parries (we guess), crit and hit against boss level mobs.
New Weapon Expertise takes care of dodges/parries only, but by a larger margin.
Back, pre-BC, Weapon skill rating also took care of glancing, but they changed that post-BC so that glancing blows could no longer be mitigated. As I understood it, they were lessened though, so that you would see less dmg reduction from them (since you can't mitigate them in any way).
So, in essence, we traded Weapon skill for Expertise, which does more bang for the buck, imo but we lost hit and crit. The new hit cap is 363, not 308, and glancing blows can not be mitigated.
At the risk of being late on the mentioning of feint in this thread, I wanted to add my own note - I've only found feint useful for bosses that have a number of transitions that wipe aggro, such as Leotheras and Hydross. I believe it has a legitimate purpose at times within those fights if you have a tank that is slightly slower to pick up aggro due to any number of factors (GnM uses a warrior tank on Leo's demon phase for example). A well placed feint there will give you a little more room to work. For most bosses however, even ones with aggro reducing abilities such as VR, vanish should cover you for the fight.
my main concern right now is that the spreadsheet lists Executioner on my Talon at 15/28 DPS behind Mongoose.
There is not sufficient data to substantiate any estimates of Executioner's DPS value, the proc rate has not been established for certain. If you'd like to provide some data, I'd recommend looking at [Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers.
I know that how to value stamina is a bit subjecitive, but I wonder if you have any thoughts on this. I recently got Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots. which have a red and a blue socket, and +3hit socket bonus.
Using the values from the original post, this is how it comes out:
red+blue with socket bonus:
32.41 points + 6 stamina
yellow+yellow (no bonus)
34.3 points
Any thougts if that little difference is worth sacrificing for 6 stamina? I do not need the blue gems for any meta bonus atm.
There is not sufficient data to substantiate any estimates of Executioner's DPS value, the proc rate has not been established for certain. If you'd like to provide some data, I'd recommend looking at [Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers.
It's not even that simple, armor penetration from what i've been looking into does not work in any linier fashion, there are
benchmarks where the dps seems greater or smaller. To impact this even more armor values vary from target to target,
and you can cap it, on some targets and waste some of the armor penetration stat, and others will still not be hitting the cap. (0 armor)
I'm working on stacking the armor penetration and my impression if you can stack expertise/hit/atk power/crit/ and haste on top of strong armor penetration your going to find the magic dps numbers as a rogue.
Executioner is a good enchant, and better on someone that has larger amounts of armor penetration (sub rogues pay attention) , much like weaponskill was, it's a tricky stat and not easy to get real dps numbers on, it's ever changing.
I use Discodice for timing Slice and Dice and Rupture. I used to use an energy ticker mod for pvp but I found with my ping it wasn't that useful. Mutilate Crit is useful when specced mutilate, and I used a mod to time Find Weakness (since it's not covered in Discodice) but I can't remember what it was. Cooldown count is great for showing your cooldowns on your UI bars.
The only macro I currently use is for deadly throw.
/cast Deadly throw
/cast Throw
It's quite primitive and a short search of the WoW general forums turned up this more sophisticated one
Which will probably give an error when trying to cast deadly throw with a non-thrown weapon equipped. Maybe not the most useful in a raid situation but I find more and more in heroics and solo that I'm liking to have the ranged snare for runners.
Macroing trinkets together with Blade Flurry is quite nice too since most (all?) on use trinkets don't affect the GCD.
/cast Abacus of Violent Odds
/cast Blade Flurry
Which will cast the trinket the immediately cast Blade Flurry. If you have 2 on use trinkets you can add a second one to the macro too, the only drawback is that if it shares a cooldown you will get a message that the item is not ready, and if it doesn't you will need to press the macro button 2 times to activate it properly.
Do mutilate builds rely as heavily on hit as combat builds?
I've found a few scattered Mutilate posts throughout various threads however I haven't been able to find anything that delves into the subtle differences that makes a mutilate build different from a combat build. After a little research I realized different mutilate is from a build like combat swords.
When I realized that Enhancement shaman don't rely as stongly on Hit as rogues do because most of their damage comes from their specials, windfury and stormstrike, I started thinking about Mutilate and my personal dps. From my research so far I've come to understand that Combat Swords generates 60-64% dps from white attacks, and roughly 20-25% from Sinister Strike. There is a bit of a difference when looking at mutilate. 49-53% is from white attacks and generally 30-35% is from mutilate. Granted this isn't a huge difference, 10% is still enough damage to merit looking into the subject of hit vs crit. (Mutilate Data is from personal data obtained from total damage done in Karazan with 209 hit rating and 24.59% crit. Unbuffed.)
I'm sitting at my old man's place on his work laptop and can't pull up the rogue spreadsheet to check dps with certain gear however I look forward to discussing this more in depth. I would have really liked to make this a new post, however I'm new to the forums and cant make a seperate post. At least I picked the right thread to theory craft in eh?
I've found a few scattered Mutilate posts throughout various threads however I haven't been able to find anything that delves into the subtle differences that makes a mutilate build different from a combat build. After a little research I realized different mutilate is from a build like combat swords.
When I realized that Enhancement shaman don't rely as stongly on Hit as rogues do because most of their damage comes from their specials, windfury and stormstrike, I started thinking about Mutilate and my personal dps. From my research so far I've come to understand that Combat Swords generates 60-64% dps from white attacks, and roughly 20-25% from Sinister Strike. There is a bit of a difference when looking at mutilate. 49-53% is from white attacks and generally 30-35% is from mutilate. Granted this isn't a huge difference, 10% is still enough damage to merit looking into the subject of hit vs crit. (Mutilate Data is from personal data obtained from total damage done in Karazan with 209 hit rating and 24.59% crit. Unbuffed.)
I'm sitting at my old man's place on his work laptop and can't pull up the rogue spreadsheet to check dps with certain gear however I look forward to discussing this more in depth. I would have really liked to make this a new post, however I'm new to the forums and cant make a seperate post. At least I picked the right thread to theory craft in eh?
So, there are two reasons why Mutilate should be less reliant on hit rating than other builds. The first is the one you mentioned, a slightly greater reliance on yellow damage. The second is that Mutilate will rely on neither Combat Potency nor Sword Specialization, which are the primary drivers behind the strength of hit rating. Losing some hit rating, as long as you're hit-capped for specials, won't affect your cycles in the least, and it won't impact your white DPS as much as it would for a combat sword build.
Crit rating, on the other hand, will not only boost your white and yellow damage, but also increase your likelihood of Seal Fate procs, thereby improving your cycles. In some ways, crit is to Mutilate builds as hit is to combat builds. The difference, of course, lies in the fact that hit rating is still far cheaper itemization cost per 1%. Will crit surpass hit rating? Of that, I have no way to be sure. I don't trust the Seal Fate models built into the DPS spreadsheet, and I don't have any confidence in myself to make an accurate Seal Fate model.
However, we can look at agility and realize that this stat will likely retain similar usefulness for Mutilate builds to what it has for any other build (with a possible increase due to the crit benefit to Seal Fate). I would hypothesize, completely without basis, that a Mutilate build would favor [Delicate Living Ruby] and [Glinting Noble Topaz], with the latter used only to fill yellow sockets for socket bonuses.
Please do contest this hypothesis if you have any reasonable basis on which to do so, as I'd hate to be spouting misinformation in my own thread.
So, there are two reasons why Mutilate should be less reliant on hit rating than other builds. The first is the one you mentioned, a slightly greater reliance on yellow damage. The second is that Mutilate will rely on neither Combat Potency nor Sword Specialization, which are the primary drivers behind the strength of hit rating. Losing some hit rating, as long as you're hit-capped for specials, won't affect your cycles in the least, and it won't impact your white DPS as much as it would for a combat sword build.
Crit rating, on the other hand, will not only boost your white and yellow damage, but also increase your likelihood of Seal Fate procs, thereby improving your cycles. In some ways, crit is to Mutilate builds as hit is to combat builds. The difference, of course, lies in the fact that hit rating is still far cheaper itemization cost per 1%. Will crit surpass hit rating? Of that, I have no way to be sure. I don't trust the Seal Fate models built into the DPS spreadsheet, and I don't have any confidence in myself to make an accurate Seal Fate model.
However, we can look at agility and realize that this stat will likely retain similar usefulness for Mutilate builds to what it has for any other build (with a possible increase due to the crit benefit to Seal Fate). I would hypothesize, completely without basis, that a Mutilate build would favor [Delicate Living Ruby] and [Glinting Noble Topaz], with the latter used only to fill yellow sockets for socket bonuses.
Please do contest this hypothesis if you have any reasonable basis on which to do so, as I'd hate to be spouting misinformation in my own thread.
I don't have any way to contest that hypothesis. I do question your claim that hit won't affect your white damage as much as combat swords. I understand that hit is vitally important for combat swords due to sword spec in particular. However I have to say that I would question the overall damage loss from dropping hit. Now I just have to further test this. Kara is clear so I don't think I'll be raiding substanially until next tuesday. However I'll look into that more. I know I'd really like to drop the hit on my gear in favor of getting more agil if it really won't affect my damage much. I suppose I could go out to the blasted lands and test it, however I don't have a ton of gold to spend resocketing my gear. Any suggestions?
I've found a few scattered Mutilate posts throughout various threads however I haven't been able to find anything that delves into the subtle differences that makes a mutilate build different from a combat build. After a little research I realized different mutilate is from a build like combat swords.
When I realized that Enhancement shaman don't rely as stongly on Hit as rogues do because most of their damage comes from their specials, windfury and stormstrike, I started thinking about Mutilate and my personal dps. From my research so far I've come to understand that Combat Swords generates 60-64% dps from white attacks, and roughly 20-25% from Sinister Strike. There is a bit of a difference when looking at mutilate. 49-53% is from white attacks and generally 30-35% is from mutilate. Granted this isn't a huge difference, 10% is still enough damage to merit looking into the subject of hit vs crit. (Mutilate Data is from personal data obtained from total damage done in Karazan with 209 hit rating and 24.59% crit. Unbuffed.)
I'm sitting at my old man's place on his work laptop and can't pull up the rogue spreadsheet to check dps with certain gear however I look forward to discussing this more in depth. I would have really liked to make this a new post, however I'm new to the forums and cant make a seperate post. At least I picked the right thread to theory craft in eh?
Alot of shaman DPS (pre 2.3) still came from white damage. However, simulations still favoured strength over hit. Warriors recently had a similar move away from hit. I'd say that the main reasons +hit is so good for Rogues isn't the percentage of total damage that is white, but Sword Spec and Combat Potency.
Alot of shaman DPS (pre 2.3) still came from white damage. However, simulations still favoured strength over hit. Warriors recently had a similar move away from hit. I'd say that the main reasons +hit is so good for Rogues isn't the percentage of total damage that is white, but Sword Spec and Combat Potency.
Right. Talking to a good friend of mine Kathil, an enchancement shaman prompted me to come here and further pursue this idea. I'm starting to see a trend here. I see why so many rogues push for hit. For combat it is such a big part of thier damage due of combat potency and sword spec. I didn't really understand that was the reason until just a little while ago. I am extremely curious to see how my damage would differ if I replaced some of my hit gear with more ap / crit oriented stats. Are there any Mutilate rogues who are in T5 who have experience with this?
Right. Talking to a good friend of mine Kathil, an enchancement shaman prompted me to come here and further pursue this idea. I'm starting to see a trend here. I see why so many rogues push for hit. For combat it is such a big part of thier damage due of combat potency and sword spec. I didn't really understand that was the reason until just a little while ago. I am extremely curious to see how my damage would differ if I replaced some of my hit gear with more ap / crit oriented stats. Are there any Mutilate rogues who are in T5 who have experience with this?
Crit is to mut as hit is to combat is a good way to put it (i think it was mentioned before)
obviously more crit means more CP just as more hit does with combat potency(more energy = more cp!)
Personally i would imagine increasing hit up to a certain level (lower than that of combat by a substantial amount) would increase dps just because hit is so abundant on gear and the amount of item points it costs is alot less than crit.
Would speculation of gemming all agy/crit instead of hit (and just use the hit you get from the actual gear,) to maximise mut dps be correct?
Crit is to mut as hit is to combat is a good way to put it (i think it was mentioned before)
obviously more crit means more CP just as more hit does with combat potency(more energy = more cp!)
Personally i would imagine increasing hit up to a certain level (lower than that of combat by a substantial amount) would increase dps just because hit is so abundant on gear and the amount of item points it costs is alot less than crit.
Would speculation of gemming all agy/crit instead of hit (and just use the hit you get from the actual gear,) to maximise mut dps be correct?
In theory gemming agil / crit would maximize the dps, however as Vulajin posted above...
Originally Posted by Vulajin
The difference, of course, lies in the fact that hit rating is still far cheaper itemization cost per 1%.
Socketing Crit is going to cost more than socketing hit, and if the difference is marginal it might hurt more than help to replace those gems. I wonder what the spread would look like when Agil / crit becomes the focus over hit. I can speculate that white damage will drop due to more misses, and mutilate damage will incease overall due to increased AP and crit.
Just a quick thank you: After reading the first post, realizing how clueless i was with my 147 hit rating, I regemmed and got some new gear, and even with the small improvement that I've got in a few days (about 170-180 hit now i think) I notice a dps increase! good times
Remind me to not post inbetween when i am busy serving customers at work -_-'
With regards to socketing agy/crit, i was under the impression that a yellow socket would have to be an 8 critical strike rating, however I forgot there is a 4 Agility, 4 hit rating orange gem which would be much better
Second, I agree on using the +4HR/+4 Agi gems (as most of mine are) I have seen a significant increase in dmg going up the HR scale (I'm at 301 right now) as Combat Daggers.
Non-combat PvE ? Works in theory, does it in practice?
Hello, I'm new around here. I've been playing rogue ever since so I decided I'd contribute. I'll get straight to the point and after make some comments on my part. I am sorry if I missed a post about this and I repeat myself but I couldn't find it with the search option and I just ended up tired of reading 20 pages of posts. Anyhow...
I've been thinking about a non-combat PvE build and I came up with an idea. Pre-2.3 it was 40/0/21 and after 38/0/23 (Click on respectable point allocation for a link to WoWhead calculator).
Anyhow the general idea is to sustain Find Weakness 95-100% of the time fighting by generating an insane amount of combo points with the least required energy. Hemorrhage + Seal Fate.
After the patch it became apparent to me that this build would be stronger just by the fact that Hemorrhage has been buffed and it gives you the option to take new Dirty Deeds in a PvE-Spec.
I also decided that taking Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality (20% per combo point for 145 critical rating for 10 secs) would work wonders if I could sustain Find Weakness so I could sustain the trinkets buff for the same duration. It would boost Seal Fate since I'd get more critical rating, which would mean I get more combo points and then the more combo points I get the easier to keep up the 145 crit rating buff.
I am not exactly sure how essential the trinket is. Also I decided that using up maximum of combo points would be the way to invent a particular cycle. I tested it and decided it is/should be possible to keep up a 5 SnD / 5 Rupture / 5 Evi cycle. I would use double rupture but the first one won't end it's duration so I am forced to use Eviscerate. I decided to test it and it worked if I did start with 5 CP, waited up for near maximum energy and then hit Hemo 3-4 times to get 5 CPs again, use finisher and wait a moment again. This way I can do both Rupture and Eviscerate in the duration of 5 point SnD and keep the SnD up all the time. Both finishers are buffed - Improved Evi, Serrated Blades.
Additional benefit is shortened cooldown on Vanish. Well you can make your own opinion by just looking at the both builds - of course the points distributed between poisons can be changed accordingly.
Next step I took was using DPS Spreadsheet to check if this could be possible (I am not aware how accurately Hemorrhage mechanics are calculated there).
The results of my experiments in the DPS Spreadsheet are as follow.
Let us start with regular sword combat build and I'll show differences accordingly:
If 20/41/0 is 1000 DPS then: (1000 DPS is a random value, just to show the difference in the following)
38/0/23 - 1036 DPS (The build suggested in this post above)
Those were the results I acquired by DPS Spreadsheet which point out that with my gear I would gain 36 DPS by using this build. Also in my calculations I didn't include the fact of using Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality since I decided that it would add a blunt number to my DPS not including a specific build/dps-cycle. Unfortunately I didn't bother to check what cycle did the Spreadsheet suggest so it is possible that there might be a better cycle than the one I suggested as well as it is possible that the usage of Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality is not the best choice/is not necessary (though it helps to keep up my cycle and works wonders in combination with Seal Fate which results in easier generation of combo points).
Honestly I can't tell how much of comparison to other builds it is just by myself. I came up with it but I tested the 2.3 version of build in Zul'Aman where bosses have little HP which mitigates the Dirty Deeds talent due to the simple fact of the 35% of the boss HP "lasting" shorter during the fight. Also in Zul'Aman there was no other rogue to compare myself with. The pre-2.3 build was tested on Gurtogg Bloodboil on which I was actually first (I had no Fel Rage) but the boss might be considered random so I am not sure if it is a good test object.
I would appreciate if someone could test it, comment, give me some feedback on the build.
If you are interested as to how I achieved the numbers (DPS stat) here is a link to my gear - WickedWrath's Gear
As you can see I'm nearing the hit cap and I can use Spicy Hot Talbuk - Possibly different stat allocation would work better for this build since I think hit is not as essential to this build.
This was brought up in the Hemo vs Combat point of inflection thread.
Check out this page Here and also the next page with one really relevant post showing Dps numbers vs tidewalker with 31/0/30. Though there hasn't been much discussion about these builds mainly I think because of the spreadsheets inability to model Seal Fate correctly which has been mentioned multiple times. Who knows test out the build and save combat logs with a few hundred thousand hits so that the smart people in this forum can tell us what to do.
the spreadsheets inability to model Seal Fate correctly which has been mentioned multiple times
Yep. Any build with Seal Fate in it will show largely inflated numbers on those DPS spreadsheets. It isn't modeled correctly, and is very hard to model in any case.
11/21/07, 1:43 PM
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