Roguecraft 101 - Page 22

Zujamar · 11/28/07, 5:22 AM

Originally Posted by ekval

We could assume that rogue with MH/BT gear has 30-35% crit chance, add in Imp. Backstab (+30%) and Dagger spec (+5%) we are probably getting higher SF procs than with Mutilate spec. SealFate would probably allow faster cycles for dagger, therefore it would raise Ashtongue/BT trinket value for this spec also. Does it after all come down to how well Mutilate scales versus Backstab?

Yes, in terms of SF procs, Backstab will see more of those within that crit chance range. But Mutilate builds will still be able to produce finishers at a faster rate, hence enjoying more Relentless, Ruthlessness and Ashtongue trinket procs. Especially the trinket buff will be godly, considering you can time all your finishers roughly between 10 and 15 seconds from the previous one as Mutilate using a "4+" thumb rule. And naturally, that would increase your effective SF proc chance closer (or over?) the one of Backstab.

Now that we're talking about Mutilate, does someone have a good comprehension of what to do when you're stuck with 3cp? (well, I'm assuming 4+ ones are a superior choice, but feel free to correct that one as well) Basically if I'm stuck in that kind of a situation I'd have to choose whether I want to risk energy starvation or sacrifice rupture uptime, both effectively ruining my cycle (if you can call it that).

Neshalin · 11/28/07, 7:00 AM

From simulations and in-game experience, I'm pretty sure 4+ finishers are better than 3+ finishers even though you might waste a combo point when that second Mutilate crits. The only exception is refreshing a Slice and Dice about to run out. The basic Mutilate 'cycle' is 4+ Slice and Dice, one or two 4+ Ruptures, using Eviscerate to dump spare combo points if nothing needs to be refreshed.

madman · 11/28/07, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Stat         | Swords       | Daggers      | Fist/Sword   | Hemo+Swords  | Hemo+Deadl.  
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strength     | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  
Agility      | 2.00 (2.21)  | 1.96 (2.17)  | 1.97 (2.17)  | 1.88 (2.07)  | 1.87 (2.06) 
Atk. Power   | 1.00         | 1.00         | 1.00         | 1.00         | 1.00        
Crit Rating  | 1.75 (1.76)  | 1.67 (1.68)  | 1.69 (1.70)  | 1.59 (1.60)  | 1.57 (1.58) 
Hit Rating   | 2.28 (2.31)  | 2.12 (2.15)  | 2.15 (2.18)  | 2.04 (2.07)  | 1.83 (1.85) 
Exp. Rating  | 2.51 (2.55)  | 2.43 (2.46)  | 2.42 (2.45)  | 2.38 (2.41)  | 2.22 (2.25) 
Armor Pen.   | 0.29         | 0.32         | 0.29         | 0.29         | 0.28        
Haste Rating | 2.15 (2.19)  | 2.18 (2.22)  | 2.14 (2.18)  | 1.92 (1.96)  | 1.83 (1.87) 
Gem (Rare)   | 17.1 (18.1)  | 16.3 (17.3)  | 16.5 (17.4)  | 15.7 (16.6)  | 14.8 (15.6) 
Gem (Epic)   | 20.5 (21.7)  | 19.6 (20.7)  | 19.8 (20.9)  | 18.8 (19.9)  | 17.7 (18.8) 
Meta Gem     | ~80          | ~80          | ~80          | ~80          | ~80

I use these numbers all the time, to get a quick idea of how one item relates to another. However, now I am in the process of figuring out whether to get the S2 MH dagger or the S3 head. That introduces one more number, the dps. The weapon speed is the same as my current MH, so that doesn't need to be taken into account. How many points is 1 weapon dps worth?

rooppa · 11/28/07, 1:14 PM

As 14 Ap add's 1 DPs to a wepon, could you use the addition of the points of 14 Ap in your working out ?

• Aldriana · 11/28/07, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by rooppa

As 14 Ap add's 1 DPs to a wepon, could you use the addition of the points of 14 Ap in your working out ?

Doesn't work, since 14 AP adds 1 DPS to both hands (and a couple damage to each Rupture) as well as to the weapon itself.

As a general rule for a combat sword rogue, 1 DPS is worth something on the order of 10 AP on the main hand, and 4 AP on the offhand. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head for the other specs, but I would expect them to be similar.

• Vulajin · 11/28/07, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by madman

I use these numbers all the time, to get a quick idea of how one item relates to another. However, now I am in the process of figuring out whether to get the S2 MH dagger or the S3 head. That introduces one more number, the dps. The weapon speed is the same as my current MH, so that doesn't need to be taken into account. How many points is 1 weapon dps worth?

Originally Posted by rooppa

As 14 Ap add's 1 DPs to a wepon, could you use the addition of the points of 14 Ap in your working out ?

No, that wouldn't necessarily be accurate because of weapon speed normalization for instant attacks (where if your weapon isn't 2.4 or 1.7 speed, 1 weapon DPS does not provide the same benefit as 14 AP).

This is a question most likely better answered by a spreadsheet, rather than trying to use EP values to judge it. Also, I would be curious to know what two specific pieces you're using in those slots that you're considering upgrading. Personally I'd go with a weapon upgrade over any other gear slot, particularly if you're looking at arena gear.

(edit) Also read Aldriana's post above mine.

Grunge · 11/28/07, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by madman

I use these numbers all the time, to get a quick idea of how one item relates to another. However, now I am in the process of figuring out whether to get the S2 MH dagger or the S3 head. That introduces one more number, the dps. The weapon speed is the same as my current MH, so that doesn't need to be taken into account. How many points is 1 weapon dps worth?

Wasting points on s2 mh is not worth it imo. 1850 isn't "hard" to achieve (if you consider the inflation). If you can't get your rating up in the first week, then go for the helm. That will give you another 1-2 week of time to get rating up and buy those weapons.

They are the best stuff before the Glaives.

frozenkex · 11/28/07, 6:22 PM

savagery is a better offhand

madman · 11/29/07, 5:02 AM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Also, I would be curious to know what two specific pieces you're using in those slots that you're considering upgrading. Personally I'd go with a weapon upgrade over any other gear slot, particularly if you're looking at arena gear.

Currently I have Malchazeen and the Netherblade facemask.

The World of Warcraft Armory

So I'm pretty sure that for my raid dps this week, the dagger would be best. However, I am also thinking long term. The S2 MH dagger is really expensive (2283), while the head is a bit cheaper (1875). In ZA there are 1.80 daggers with ~95-ish dps that drops, but of course it is hard to know when they might drop for me.

Currently I could use both the S3 head and S3 chest as well, as they with the right gems will be the best I could get with the guild's current progress.

madman · 11/29/07, 5:05 AM

Originally Posted by Grunge

Wasting points on s2 mh is not worth it imo. 1850 isn't "hard" to achieve (if you consider the inflation). If you can't get your rating up in the first week, then go for the helm.

Unless something has changed, I'm not close to managing that. I really hate pvp, I'm just forced to do it the way the game is now. I manage to stay around 1500 on 2v2 with a semi good healer, but 3v3 and 5v5 we lose most matches.

Raynforce · 11/29/07, 7:07 AM

Previously quoted

Hi all,

I just needed to clarify something about Sword spec. I understand when sword spec procs on OH it triggers a MH swing. I'm using fist/sword. so my OH sword procs my MH fist swing with 5% crit on it due to fist spec. So this spec comes out with slightly higher DPS because my fist has 5% crit on it right?

What I needed to know is what happens if my MH is sword too. Does my MH proc another MH swing as well? If MH and OH procs MH attacks only ( OH never gets an extra swing from SS ), isn't MH and OH sword superior to MH fist / OH sword?

Also, I heard rumors that this has been corrected in patch 2.3 but on my combat logs, my OH sword still procs my MH fist so I assume nothing has been changed at all. Am I right?

Help anyone?

Graecus · 11/29/07, 9:30 AM

There is an entire thread dedicated to a spreadsheet where you put in your items, spec, and it magically lets you know what kind of output you can gain in a sustained environment.

[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet

I'd recommend you check that out.

Raynforce · 11/29/07, 9:37 AM

Previously quoted by Graecus

There is an entire thread dedicated to a spreadsheet where you put in your items, spec, and it magically lets you know what kind of output you can gain in a sustained environment.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14304-r...s_spreadsheet/

I'd recommend you check that out.

Yea I understand that a spreadsheet exists, I just needed to know the mechanics of this spec. More specifically, how does it work? Does sword spec proc on MH trigger a MH swing as well?

Not exactly the difference in DPS that the spreadsheet provides.

Graecus · 11/29/07, 9:45 AM

Well, you asked about the superiority of a spec, and the DPS spreadsheet will tell you exactly that. As to the exact mechanics, SSpec triggers a MH swing. If you have a sword in your OH, it triggers a MH swing. If you have a sword in your MH, it triggers a MH swing.

Raynforce · 11/29/07, 9:48 AM

Originally Posted by Graecus

Well, you asked about the superiority of a spec, and the DPS spreadsheet will tell you exactly that. As to the exact mechanics, SSpec triggers a MH swing. If you have a sword in your OH, it triggers a MH swing. If you have a sword in your MH, it triggers a MH swing.

That was exactly what I needed to know.. Thanks!

Graecus · 11/29/07, 9:53 AM

most welcome.

doplegnger · 11/29/07, 11:15 AM

The first post mentions the ranking of spec choices and relative worth to each other based on personal DPS.

Has this ranking been updated for both of the 2.3.0.2 changes?

I only ask because it seemed to me that combat daggers got a big boost with the addition of aggression (something that previously wouldn't have assisted their DPS) as well as the bonus to the multiplier. Estimating around 25% of combat dagger damage coming from backstab and a combined bonus of 21% to backstab damage (150% damage to 165% damage and 6% on new aggression damage) it seems like it would be around a 5.25% increase in DPS (working with soft estimates instead of hard numbers). Was combat daggers so hard off before that the bonus was what put it up to being 3% below swords, or is combat daggers now decently equivalent to the top end rogue build?

I found a previous question that brought up aggression but not the increase in backstab multiplier and I wasn't sure if that change was snuck in at the last moment (I don't pay attention to specifics on patch notes until they are released)

ekval · 11/29/07, 11:36 AM

I think its stated that Backstab change in Aggression wasn't enough to bring Combat Daggers near to Combat Swords.

About other thing, I was Combat Swords before with [Blade of Infamy]+[Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]. When I tried [Syphon of the Nathrezim]+[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] with Combat Maces (exactly same talent contribution with both specs), it seems that in practice Syphon/Swiftsteel takes the lead in PvE raid damage. The difference ain't that small either, its quite noticeable in favor of Combat Maces. This seems to be against spreadsheets, I wonder why?

Birgitte · 11/29/07, 11:45 AM

I'm sure it's been asked, but is glancing blow chance against a boss 25% or 40% right now?

• Hamlet · 11/29/07, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Birgitte

I'm sure it's been asked, but is glancing blow chance against a boss 25% or 40% right now?

25%. As far as I know, there's no relevant hit-table-capping issue.

Nakaroth · 11/29/07, 1:31 PM

This is my first post and possibly in the wrong forum; however, it does pertain to Rogue's and gear choice and seeing as though my problem is directly quoted in the original post I'd like to ask it here.

Netherblade Facemask
308 Armor ---> (non-DPS stats can be valued at 0 EP)
+28 Agility ---> 28 * 2.21 = 61.88 EP
+39 Stamina ---> 0 EP
[ ] Meta Socket ---> 80 EP
[ ] Red Socket ---> 18.1 EP
Socket Bonus: +4 Agility ---> 4 * 2.21 = 8.84 EP
Equip: Improves hit rating by 14. ---> 14 * 2.31 = 32.34 EP
Equip: Improves attack power by 78. ---> 78 EP
Total: 61.88 + 80 + 18.1 + 8.84 + 32.34 + 78 = 279.16 EP

Grimgrin Faceguard
341 Armor ---> 0 EP
+40 Agility ---> 40 * 2.21 = 88.40 EP
+48 Stamina ---> 0 EP
[ ] Red Socket ---> 18.1 EP
[ ] Yellow Socket ---> 18.1 EP
[ ] Blue Socket ---> 18.1 EP (don't use a blue here)
Socket Bonus: +8 Attack Power ---> 0 EP (won't be satisfied)
Equip: Improves hit rating by 24. ---> 24 * 2.31 = 55.44 EP
Equip: Improves attack power by 82. ---> 82 EP
Total: 88.40 + 18.1 + 18.1 + 18.1 + 55.44 + 82 = 280.14 EP

I'm using T4 currently and my guild regularly clears ZA. When I get the chance to loot Grimgrin Faceguard my predicament is if I should or not. Currently I do not have RED in my Meta slot. When these two helms are compared, stats wise, Grimgrin wins out. However, if I put a RED in my T4 should I keep that for the 3% crit damage?

Currently I get 1700 SS crits without RED.

Question: T4 with RED, or Grimgrin + more socket selection.

Latito · 11/29/07, 1:31 PM

I had thought it was 24%.. 8% per lvl the mob is above you, or am I just remembering wrong?

• Aldriana · 11/29/07, 1:41 PM

Determining whether it's 24% or 25% from straight statistical testing requires a *lot* of data - data that I haven't seen cross these forums. So unless there has been significant testing and analysis elsewhere (and if there has, please point me to it), I'm not sure if we can say for sure whether it's 24% or 25%. But it's certainly in that ballpark.

Shaker · 11/29/07, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by Nakaroth

stuff

Question: T4 with RED, or Grimgrin + more socket selection.

Either of the T4 bonuses are enough to kick NB over Grimgrin for my personal tastes, so in most reasonable cases I can imagine, I'd suggest sticking with a properly gemmed NB. The 2 pc bonus is particularly big.

Katria · 11/29/07, 7:48 PM

It would be cool to add to the first post some ballpark values for the various set bonuses. Say you have the hat and gloves for the T4 set bonus, but have the option to upgrade to the S3 arena hat and buy the new badge gloves. Both items are upgrades over their T4 counterparts, but is it better to stick with the set bonus? I'm sure there are other examples.

While some are trivial to set a value for (2pc Wastewalker), others are more nebulous.