Roguecraft 101 - Page 3

Littlefinger · 10/13/07, 9:28 AM

I have a question about your assessment on the gems. You constantly say that the ones with agility is superior to the ones with only attack power. For example. 8 Agi should be prefered over 16 AP and 4 Agi 6 Stam should be prefered over 8 AP 6 Stam. However when I do the same comparison in the rogue DPS spreadsheet then the AP ones always come out ahead. So, which is it?

For reference I'm a T4 (few T5) Sword spec rogue with Spiteblade and Merciless Quickblade.

Tryss · 10/13/07, 3:42 PM

Don't forget [Icon of Unyielding Courage] is a good pre-raid trinket, as well.

vokzhen · 10/14/07, 11:11 PM

I think this is the best place for this. I've heard (mainly from the 2.1 Theorycrafting thread) that Mutilate falls significantly behind combat, due to some change in 2.1. Can anyone elaborate on this? I just haven't been able to find any solidly-stated reason why it falls behind besides "it just does;" maybe something about haste and Combat Potency, but I don't *think* that's a big concern until haste rating gets more common on gear, and something about less out of Windfury but I don't know why unless running with DP/DP.

• Vulajin · 10/15/07, 1:04 AM

Originally Posted by Littlefinger

I have a question about your assessment on the gems. You constantly say that the ones with agility is superior to the ones with only attack power. For example. 8 Agi should be prefered over 16 AP and 4 Agi 6 Stam should be prefered over 8 AP 6 Stam. However when I do the same comparison in the rogue DPS spreadsheet then the AP ones always come out ahead. So, which is it?

For reference I'm a T4 (few T5) Sword spec rogue with Spiteblade and Merciless Quickblade.

Oops, sorry for not getting back to you on this. My answer would be that it can vary greatly depending on your current gear and the buffs with which you evaluate your DPS. In general, I'd do two things:

1) compare the output from both spreadsheets to make sure it's not just a difference in the modeling
2) value the opinion given by the spreadsheets slightly higher than general rules such as the ones I've given

Guidelines are great, but don't necessarily trust them as law. If the spreadsheets tell you that AP gems are better at your gear level and with the buffs you get in raids, then go with AP gems.

Originally Posted by Tryss

Don't forget [Icon of Unyielding Courage] is a good pre-raid trinket, as well.

Will add, thanks for reminding me.

Marvie · 10/15/07, 11:51 AM

"On gem selection: only gem for socket bonuses that provide offensive stats (hit rating, crit rating, AP), and only if they are achievable using solely red and yellow gems. If you are socketing for a bonus, always use [Rigid Dawnstone] in yellow sockets and [Glinting Noble Topaz] in red sockets, unless you are nearing the hit cap, in which case use [Glinting Noble Topaz] in yellow sockets and [Delicate Living Ruby] in red sockets."

Curious, why is Glinting (4hit 4agi) a better choice than Wicked (4crit 8AP)?

Just wondering because I'm at 300hit right now and any gem slots I have to fill I planned on using Wicked. If there is a reason Glinting is superior I would love to be enlightened.

Amaevisane · 10/15/07, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Marvie

Curious, why is Glinting (4hit 4agi) a better choice than Wicked (4crit 8AP)?

Attack power and crit gems should not be used in Rogue Gear, unless the AP or crit gem is greater than a Delicate Living Ruby. A Glinting Noble Topaz is used in a red or yellow slot to help close the gap of your hit cap. I myself use the Crimson Sun (24 ap ruby) in my Netherblade chest, as I am hit capped at 300. The Crimson Sun is far superior dps compared to a Delicate Living Ruby. I chose the Pulsing Amethyst for my Deathmantle pants. It's a wonderful gem for the slot, again I am hit capped. I'm considering using a Stone of Blades (12 crit rating dawnstone) in something when I can squeeze it in.

A Delicate Living Ruby (8 agi) gives you 8 attack power, 4.4 crit, plus dodge and armor. The Paladin blessing Kings increases agility by 10%. Kings does not increase ap or crit, only base stats.

I laugh (on the inside) every time I see a rogue using a Wicked Noble Topaz in the red slot of their Netherblade chest. There is never a time it would make sense. If you need a yellow gem to make your meta work, chances are you are low on hit, and therefore a Glinting Noble Topaz is a far superior choice to a Wicked Noble Topaz.

(If you were to armory me at the moment, I'm wearing my Thalasian Wildercloak, and not the Drape of the Dark Reavers, which is what I wear to raid. Also mace spec, as the guild I am applying to does not raid again until Tuesday)

Drunk · 10/16/07, 3:28 AM

Originally Posted by Littlefinger

I have a question about your assessment on the gems. You constantly say that the ones with agility is superior to the ones with only attack power. For example. 8 Agi should be prefered over 16 AP and 4 Agi 6 Stam should be prefered over 8 AP 6 Stam. However when I do the same comparison in the rogue DPS spreadsheet then the AP ones always come out ahead. So, which is it?

For reference I'm a T4 (few T5) Sword spec rogue with Spiteblade and Merciless Quickblade.

Check out buffed dps. Stacking AP over agi gives you bigger boost when unbuffed/solo grinding, but buffed with BoK, agi takes the lead. And we care only for raids dps anyway so Vulajin is correct

Lunaviel · 10/16/07, 6:51 AM

Originally Posted by Marvie

Curious, why is Glinting (4hit 4agi) a better choice than Wicked (4crit 8AP)?

Using the simple AP conversions from the topic gives us:

4 crit @ 1.6 AP = 6.4 AP

This gives Wicked a total value of 6.4 + 8 = 14.4 AP

Compare to Glinting:

4 hit @ 2.3 AP = 9.2 AP
4 agi @ 2.2 AP = 8.4 AP

Total for Glinting is 9.2 + 8.4 = 17.6 AP - clearly superior.

This of course assumes that you have not reached the hit cap, at which point the value of hit approaches 0 giving Wicked a clear advantage over glinting. For red sockets the Delicate (8 agi) still beats Wicked of course.

1 Strength = 1 AP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP
1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP
4 Armor Penetration = 1 AP
1 Haste Rating = 2.3 AP

What I really want to know is where the value of 2.3 AP for 1 haste rating comes from. Using the rogue DPS spreadsheet, I get a raid-buffed value of 0.82 AEP for haste, which translated to AP is roughly 1.7 (AP clocks in at .49 AEP for me).

mmaker · 10/16/07, 8:53 AM

Anyone done any calculation of the new mace spec with 5% more crit damage?

bossmonster · 10/16/07, 9:53 AM

edit: I'm stupid.

Kellhus · 10/16/07, 9:56 AM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Okay, did a quick model assuming that mace spec functions additively with RED (I have no idea if this will be the case, but it seems to be the most likely assumption to make). Started with [Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] as my control set. Then I switched to [Dragonstrike] and [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker] and lost 35 DPS. Upgraded the main hand to [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and lost another 11 DPS. Switched the offhand to [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] and gained back 16.5 DPS.

Long story short, looks like mace spec will be right up there with fists in 2.3, but swords and fist+sword will still win out.

Comparing the talon to dragonstrike is rough, given the talons nice pve stats. How much of the dps loss can be purely attributed to a stat loss, and how much comes from the spec change?

Also, since mace and claw will be very similar in specialization, and the mace does have a haste proc still --does this mean that a Mace/Sword build becomes as valid for dps as a claw/sword post 2.3?

Cluey · 10/16/07, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by bossmonster

Do you even play a rogue?

While not made clear the person you are quoting is referring to an equivalence of AP not direct AP.
I expect if you read more of the theory threads around here you would have picked that up.

Lunaviel · 10/16/07, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by bossmonster

Do you even play a rogue?

I have to admit the 1 agi = 2 AP puzzled me a bit, especially the 2.2 with kings part. However, given that my gear currently yields .49 AEP for AP according to the rogue gear sheet, assuming that 1 agi = 2 AP isn't outrageous as a rule of thumb. This is stat weighting we're talking about after all, even if using AP as a unit might lead to misunderstandings.

• Vulajin · 10/16/07, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Kellhus

Comparing the talon to dragonstrike is rough, given the talons nice pve stats. How much of the dps loss can be purely attributed to a stat loss, and how much comes from the spec change?

Also, since mace and claw will be very similar in specialization, and the mace does have a haste proc still --does this mean that a Mace/Sword build becomes as valid for dps as a claw/sword post 2.3?

Well, using Talon as a baseline functions to show how a mace build using T5-equivalent weapons would compare to a sword build using T5-equivalent. Obviously there aren't any maces with better stats, which I think is the pertinent info. You can see from the comparison to the Syphon that Dragonstrike is likely the best of the bunch, although I have no clue at all what kind of proc rate the Rod has, so I can't fairly model that.

My rough estimates show that a mace/sword build will be quite competitive, very slightly behind fist/sword, where fist/sword is very slightly behind sword/sword. All these estimates assume that mace spec's 5% crit damage functions additively with RED. If it functions differently, the numbers will be skewed.

Also, check your PM's momentarily.

Regarding people commenting on "1 Agi = 2 AP"...I'm confused as to how you could call me on that, but not get confused when I went on to equate crit rating and hit rating to AP amounts. Obviously the table is meant to value the DPS contribution from any stat in terms of the amount of pure AP it would take to get equal DPS contribution.

If anyone would like to help me correct my wording for that portion so that it's more clear and I don't have people jumping on me in the future for "spouting misinformation," please feel free.

Cluey · 10/16/07, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

*snip*

Regarding people commenting on "1 Agi = 2 AP"...I'm confused as to how you could call me on that, but not get confused when I went on to equate crit rating and hit rating to AP amounts. Obviously the table is meant to value the DPS contribution from any stat in terms of the amount of pure AP it would take to get equal DPS contribution.

If anyone would like to help me correct my wording for that portion so that it's more clear and I don't have people jumping on me in the future for "spouting misinformation," please feel free.

While I understood what you meant it won't be obviously clear to new readers, given that this is a summary post to get new people up to speed perhaps you should note it in the first post along with your other abbreviations?
Even better would be to use a different abbreviation, maybe APE or APe, the e/E for equivalence?
*I think there is/was a system using AEP but my brain is not clear on this anymore, I also seem to recall the rating you are doing to be different from the way that system works.

I know with the feral druid stuff we ended up using KP (kitty points) to avoid the confusion but that was a while ago on the official forums which I haven't visited in a while, the druids here just use straight AP as well.