And to be even more perfectly technical: the amount of difference it makes is actually surprisingly small. Hit below the yellow hit cap is only worth about 10-15% more than hit above the yellow hit cap.
Do misses have an energy discount? Lord knows it's been a very, VERY long time since I missed an SS. And heck, while we're on the topic - do parries get an energy discount as well?
I don't know. I mean, I understand exactly what your saying in your example, however, I just have it drilled into my brain that every single swing I miss is a huge potential amount of increased damage dealt. I know it's argued all the time that there is no magic hit number, but I still put more value on closing the +hit rating cap with my gear, and THEN focusing on the other stats.
This may not be the most ideal way to gear yourself theoretically, but it's what I do, and I absolutely dominate the dps boards in our raids, so I must be doing something right.
I see rogues around all the time with gear that looks almost identical to my own except the cram in 8 agility gems, wicked noble topaz etc etc, and they sit around 225 hit rating. They have much more attack power and much more crit than myself, but I believe I would destroy their dps.
I set this magic *never go below this number* for myself at 252 (+16 % hit since we regularly do raid with a moonkin) although i try to shoot higher since imp FF isn't always going to be there for me. (actually clearing up to alar right now with no moonkin)
As soon as i get my tunic of assassination upgraded to bloodsail brigand's vest (hopefully this week!), i'll switch to cat's swiftness k?
Well this is easy - get an addon like recount, record a trash raid, then record a boss fight and check it out. You will see what you white damage is, what % miss you have, how much exactly it is hurting your dps, then be able to calculate if the hit will be better or the agi one. Generally hit scales better with the gear than the agi/ap if you are below hit cap
Do misses have an energy discount? Lord knows it's been a very, VERY long time since I missed an SS. And heck, while we're on the topic - do parries get an energy discount as well?
Yeah, you only lose I believe 7 energy for missed/dodged/parried SSes. With finishers you lose all the energy, unless you have quick recovery of course.
Yeah, you only lose I believe 7 energy for missed/dodged/parried SSes. With finishers you lose all the energy, unless you have quick recovery of course.
Surprise Attacks guarantees that no finishers can be dodged.
2/2 Quick Recovery means that finishers which fail to hit only cost 20% of their energy.
Finishers are not a factor anyway, with Surprise Attacks you get no benefit from Expertise unless your finishers are in danger of being parried and the energy cost of finishers is small compared to CP generators.
If you are working on a 0 Energy budget then your next special will come in when you have sufficient energy available.
One reason for not doing things this way but people often do.
In this case a dodged/parried CP generator means you have to wait at least one energy tick before you can try the special again. 2 seconds deeper into your DPS cycle.
Any reduction in dodge rate is useful in that it makes DPS cycles easier to maintain and DPS easier to sustain.
Blizzard have also introduced a new food buff which gets +20 Hit Rating, this takes some of the pain out of the new hit cap.
Recently I've been reading everywhere about combat sword dps in comparison to combat dagger dps, and in every comparison drawn swords comes out top hands down. Now when I first saw these posts popping up on the official rogue forums about everyone turning to swords I stuck it through with daggers, as generally I don't beleive anything on those BS forums.
I am not benign to the fact that on paper swords > daggers (combat) and will not flat out deny objective truths. However the amount of dps I still produce easily equals the other two combat rogues in my guild (who are both swords). Comparing our profiles you will see that we are pretty much all equally geared:
(I would appreciate no commenting about improving my current stats - I know 306 +hit is far from optimal with the amount of AP I have, but there are some major upgrades in store so right now there would be no use in re-socketing my gear accordingly as I usually do if I receive upgrades).
So I am just inquiring as to WHY combat daggers is such a no go for most people, even in mid-high end BT? In my experience it's as viable as combat swords.
Thanks in advance for answers,
Manuva.
P.S. Sorry for taking it slightly off topic, but I thought posting a new thread about this is pointless.
You right, i think the hype about swords make people think that swords is WAY better then daggers. But if you take the numbers of the first page for example, saying swords is 5% more dps then daggers it equals to 1050 dps for a swordrogue if the daggers holds 1000 dps. So in reality the differents is not much. Ofcourse if the rogue got the warglaives its another story, but then again there are no comparable daggers
Looking at a few of these new Subtlety changes, is it possible now that dagger rogues may end up being able to output more DPS? With Dirty Deeds changes (20% more damage against targets below 35% health) and Shadowstep able to be used while out of stealth, there is a possibility of generating a solid amount of damage. What do you think?
I've been thinking about what precisely to put in the mechanics section, and here's a little thought I had with regard to cooldown syncing and its effect on DPS. Assume ability A with cooldown C(A) and ability B with cooldown C(B) = k*C(A), for some real value k > 1. Either k is an integer (e.g. C(A) = 2 min and C(B) = 4 min, so k = 2) or k is not an integer (e.g. C(A) = 2 min and C(B) = 3 min, so k = 1.5).
Additionally, assume there are three possible strategies:
1) We use both cooldowns on cooldown.
2) We use A on cooldown, but hold off on B until the next time A is available.
3) We use B on cooldown, but hold off on A until the next time B is available.
If k is an integer, our calculations are very simple. Since C(B) is a multiple of C(A), ability A will always be available when B becomes available. Thus:
1) If we use both abilities on cooldown, we can consider a timeframe of length C(B). Over this timeframe, we will use A exactly k times, and B exactly once. The cooldowns will sync up exactly once.
2) If we hold off on B until A becomes available, that won't change anything, since A is always available when B becomes available.
3) If we hold off on A until B becomes available, trivially, this will be inferior. Rather than being used k times in C(B), A will be used only once. B will still be used once. The abilities will still sync up once.
Thus, when k is an integer, it is obvious that strategy 1/2 is best.
If k is not an integer, our calculations become slightly less simple. However, we can take a timeframe of C(A)*C(B). Over this time, we know that the abilities will sync up a number of times equal to the greatest common factor between C(A) and C(B) (e.g. if C(A) = 6 and C(B) = 9, greatest common factor is 3, C(A)*C(B) = 54, so they will sync up 3 times in 54 minutes).
1) If we use both abilities on cooldown, we can consider a timeframe of C(A)*C(B)/gcf. Over this timeframe, we will use A exactly C(B)/gcf times, and B exactly C(A)/gcf times. The abilities will sync up once.
2) If we hold off on B until A becomes available, then we can consider a timeframe of ceil(k)*C(A). Over this timeframe, we will use A exactly ceil(k) times, and B exactly once. The abilities will sync up once.
3) If we hold off on A until B becomes available, then we can consider a timeframe of C(B), or k*C(A). Over this timeframe, we will use A exactly once, and B exactly once. The abilities will sync up once.
Here it is less obvious which is best. First, we must compare strategy 2 to strategy 3. Strategy 2 has a ratio of usage of ability A to time equal to ceil(k)/(ceil(k)*C(A)) = 1/C(A). Strategy 3's same ratio is 1/(k*C(A)). Since k > 1, strategy 2's ratio is greater. However, strategy 2 has a syncing ratio of 1/(ceil(k)*C(A)), while 3's ratio is 1/(k*C(A)); since k is not an integer, ceil(k) > k, therefore strategy 3's ratio is greater. Let the DPS increase factor of a cooldown be quantified by I(x). The DPS change going from strategy 2 to strategy 3 is:
I(A)/(k*C(A)) - I(A)/C(A) + I(A)*I(B)/(k*C(A)) - I(A)*I(B)/(ceil(k)*C(A)) =
(I(A) + I(A)*I(B))/(k*C(A)) - I(A)/C(A) - I(A)*I(B)/(ceil(k)*C(A)) =
1 + I(B) - 1 - k*I(B)/ceil(k) < (note that k/ceil(k) < 1 by definition if k is not an integer)
I(B) - I(B) = 0
The DPS change is less than zero; in other words, by switching from strategy 2 to strategy 3, you will always lose DPS. Now we want to figure out how strategy 1 compares to strategy 2. First, we can trivially find that A is used with a ratio of 1/C(A), and B with a ratio of 1/(k*C(A)). Note that strategy 2's ratio for A was also 1/C(A), and its ratio for B was 1/(ceil(k)*C(A)). However, 1's ratio of syncing the cooldowns is gcf/(C(A)*C(B)). This makes for a slightly more complicated analysis. The DPS change going from strategy 1 to strategy 2 is:
The DPS change going from strategy 1 to strategy 2 must be less than this given quantity. Thus, if we set this quantity equal to zero, we can find the conditions under which strategy 1 must be better than strategy 2.
If C(A) is a common factor between C(A) and C(B), then C(B) must be a multiple of C(A). Note that this is not a contradiction of our assumptions; rather, this is simply using the general case to illustrate what we already proved above when discussing integer values of k.
If C(A) is not the greater common factor between C(A) and C(B), we cannot actually make any general-case guarantees about strategy 1 versus strategy 2. If C(A) != gcf (and therefore C(A) > gcf), then strategy 2 might be better than strategy 1. If C(A) = gcf, then strategy 1 must be better.
(edit) (edited again -- Note that was formerly here has been invalidated.)
(edit 2) Please correct me if I've made any logical fallacies.
(edit 3) Just noticed a big problem with it. Pay me no heed while I fix this up. :p
(edit 4) Fixed. It's a lot more complex than I originally thought.
You should check the DPS&Gear Spreadsheets on this same forum.
Anyway, just to save you some time, fist+sword would give you SLIGHTLY more dps at the cost of 5talent points. On my current setup I go from 1550 to 1555 dps, which is hardly noticeable.
At the sametime I'm an avid pvper so my combat builds include extra toys like blade twisting or improved kick, so fist+sword is a no-no for me.
Up to you :-)
You right, i think the hype about swords make people think that swords is WAY better then daggers. But if you take the numbers of the first page for example, saying swords is 5% more dps then daggers it equals to 1050 dps for a swordrogue if the daggers holds 1000 dps. So in reality the differents is not much. Ofcourse if the rogue got the warglaives its another story, but then again there are no comparable daggers
The difference has little to do with itemisation, skill, or talents.
The fact is that in most TBC endgame encounters a non-Dagger Combat build is better suited for the job.
It was always the case that Combat Daggers excels in a fight that is stable: tank and spank.
Little has changed in that respect.
However the fights we have now, phases including adds for example, and the increased importance of fast trash clearing mean that overall a non-Dagger Combat Rogue brings better performance with it in TBC than a Combat Dagger Rogue does.
So the advantages of playing Combat Daggers in Vanilla WoW no longer outweigh the disadvantages: awkward solo play, rubbish PvP playability. In fact many say that even in tank and spank fights there is little or nothing to be gained being Combat Daggers.
You seem to have missed the fact that, according to our most accurate spreadsheet models these days, combat daggers actually does come out behind sword and fist builds, even in a sustained tank and spank fight. The other disadvantages of being daggers just make it even less desireable.
Looking at a few of these new Subtlety changes, is it possible now that dagger rogues may end up being able to output more DPS? With Dirty Deeds changes (20% more damage against targets below 35% health) and Shadowstep able to be used while out of stealth, there is a possibility of generating a solid amount of damage. What do you think?
So, the problem is that in order to get even Dirty Deeds one needs to spec fairly deep in Hemo, meaning you need to sacrifice either assassination or high-end combat, both of which hurt a *lot*. And this is doubly true for Shadowstep. I don't expect those talents to be sufficiently powerful to justify the loss of DPS through other talents for a dagger build.
In fact, I think the big winner in the subtlety changes is... sword builds (shockingly enough). Combat Hemo (11/26/24 and it's ilk) will be the major benefactors of such a change. They will still do less total DPS than Combat, but when you factor in the Hemo debuff it is sufficient to justify a raid slot.
Originally Posted by Krollin
The difference has little to do with itemisation, skill, or talents.
The fact is that in most TBC endgame encounters a non-Dagger Combat build is better suited for the job.
It was always the case that Combat Daggers excels in a fight that is stable: tank and spank.
Little has changed in that respect.
However the fights we have now, phases including adds for example, and the increased importance of fast trash clearing mean that overall a non-Dagger Combat Rogue brings better performance with it in TBC than a Combat Dagger Rogue does.
So the advantages of playing Combat Daggers in Vanilla WoW no longer outweigh the disadvantages: awkward solo play, rubbish PvP playability. In fact many say that even in tank and spank fights there is little or nothing to be gained being Combat Daggers.
So many people don't bother anymore.
Oddly, this is somewhat reversed now. In purely sustained fights where swords can maintain cycles like 3s5r and keep very high rupture uptime, they blow past daggers. It is in interrupted fights where swords have a hard time maintaining tight cycles that daggers have the ability to compete, as dagger builds are much less reliant on rupture and much more reliant on simply keeping SnD up and backstabbing. Hence, to the extent a dagger rogue is going to be able to keep up at all, it's going to be on trash and interrupted fights, not on purely sustained fights. Which is exactly reversed from what it was pre-BC, but that's the way it goes.
at first I wanted to thank you for this very informative post. I still got some remarks on the two below quoted passages.
Originally Posted by Vulajin
Combo Point Cycles
On fist/mace/sword cycles: in general, the cycle of choice is Xs/5r. With T4 2pc, 1s/5r or 2s/5r are the likely choices, with 2s/5r being less likely to let SnD drop. Without T4 2pc, 4s/5r or 5s/5r are the choices, with 5s/5r being less likely to let Slice and Dice drop. Do not try to squeeze in extra finishers like Eviscerate. Should the target be immune to bleed effects, use Xs/5e (with T4 2pc, 2s/5e; without it, 5s/5e).
On combat dagger cycles: with T4 2pc, the cycle of choice is Xs/3r, most commonly 1s/3r, although other variants are possible. Typically increasing the CP used on SnD will not result in a gain of SnD uptime, because generating the additional CP will take as long as the amount of extra SnD duration gained. Without T4 2pc, the cycle of choice is 3s/5s/5r. (HELP! Please verify this section is correct. Thanks.)
I have ever since been on Combat Daggers until the start of S2, I changed to Maces for more Arena viabilty then. On raids without t4, having no t5 4 bonus yet, the cycle 3s/5r worked for me fine there.
Now I am back to daggers again, still searching for the perfect cycle, and I have to confess that 5s/5r never works out for me, after 5s building up cps again I have about ~7 to 8s left until snd runs out, so it probably is about 5s/2r at max for me, even having t5 4bonus now.
anyone any ideas or experiences?
Looking at a few of these new Subtlety changes, is it possible now that dagger rogues may end up being able to output more DPS? With Dirty Deeds changes (20% more damage against targets below 35% health) and Shadowstep able to be used while out of stealth, there is a possibility of generating a solid amount of damage. What do you think?
I spent some time in deep sub in ZA on the PTR. My gear isn't outstanding (hitcap, T4, properly enchanted/socketed etc) and I wasn't in a stacked DPS group, but i was doing considerably better damage as sub-daggers than I was as combat daggers. Specifically, I found that premed->garrote->rupture->relentless->1cp snd was a great opener, and generally followed up by backstab spam, with an occassional hemo or shiv to quickly hit 5cp ruptures.
Also, I macro'ed shadowstep into my backstab spam, so that I would use it (and its associated aggro reduction) every time it was up. It essentially worked like free feint. (i.e., /cast shadowstep /stopcasting /cast backstab).
So, anecdotally, yes, maybe there is a place for shs daggers in raiding. Lets see what the yet-to-be-announced hemo buff looks like? If they find a way to make it more dagger friendly, they we may have a serious contender. I would love it if they 1.) had hemo increase dot damage, 2.) made it into a more stackable buff; so, instead of just refreshing the count, 3 hemos would leave 90 charges of the debuff on the target.
Yeah, you only lose I believe 7 energy for missed/dodged/parried SSes. With finishers you lose all the energy, unless you have quick recovery of course.
Edit: it's 8 energy.
A missed SS/BS/etc uses 20% of the normal energy. So 8 for SS, 12 for BS
I'm also a little uncertain about the gem info here. I think the root of the disagreement comes from the AEP numbers. Where do those come from? My calculated AEP #s from the rogue DPS spreadsheet comes out to 1 AGI = .55 AP = 1.01 hit (buffed w/ kings). For red gems, this would suggest 16 AP is > 8 AGI, and would agree that the optimal yellow is 8 hit (tho barely).
I'm also a little uncertain about the gem info here. I think the root of the disagreement comes from the AEP numbers. Where do those come from? My calculated AEP #s from the rogue DPS spreadsheet comes out to 1 AGI = .55 AP = 1.01 hit (buffed w/ kings). For red gems, this would suggest 16 AP is > 8 AGI, and would agree that the optimal yellow is 8 hit (tho barely).
Your AEP numbers are relative to your current gear and buffs. Straight AP is probably a bigger boost for unbuffed dps, while agi will give more dps once raidbuffed with kings+might+shout+flask etc.
@Aldriana:
I find the problems with Dagger builds on trash are the same as before and that Swords has reached at least parity with Daggers on bosses. Mind you I freely admit that issues with gear in the Raids I take part in distort what I am seeing and I have not taken these into account.
What I am seeing on trash is that Sword Rogues with worse gear than me in chaotic fights/small trash are out DPSing me, on bosses and big trash I am leaving them far behind.
With sword rogues of equal gear I tend compete on even terms on bosses only.
A lot of this could be down to me not trying so hard on smaller trash though.
I am a Combat Dagger Rogue, I am impatiently waiting a decent sword drop so I can respec. I am even contemplating PvP to get my weapons that way and I hate PvP with a vengeance. Sorry, I am boring people with my life story :/
@Talda:
I have the 4 set T4 bonus, I am not Ruthlessness specced (should be) but I find that a 1s/3s/5r cycle is still easy to maintain.
Respeccing to 3/3 Ruthlessness 4/5 Lethality should make 1s/3r easier. Doing so makes better use of the 4 set bonus, it hardly features otherwise.
Was just wondering how the effect of haste items like Band Of Devastation effects the yellow attacks? Does it calculate it from the stats on the weapon or do it count it after the "new" speed with the haste item?
Was just wondering how the effect of haste items like Band Of Devastation effects the yellow attacks? Does it calculate it from the stats on the weapon or do it count it after the "new" speed with the haste item?
Stats from the weapon AFAIK (or haste would downgrade your yellow DPS, which would be quite absurd, though absurdity happens). I never noticed a diminution in my yellow hits when under haste effect anyway.
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
Hey guys I have a question. WIth 3/3 Imp Faerie Fire what would be the new Hit Cap (consider Precison and Weapon Expertise)? I'm really lost there.
Thaks in advance
3/3 Imp FF gives 3% hit.
2/2 Weapon Expertise was equivalent to 10 Weapon Skill, roughly 3.5% hit.
New Hit Cap is 363 Hit Rating, Hit Rating to Hit% conversion at level 70 is 15.8 = 1% Hit.
3 * 15.8 = 47.4. Round that down, decimals make arithmetic so ugly
363 - 47 = 316
Chuck in the new food buff and you have a hit cap of 296, with a Draenei Warrior in your party you get 281.
Of course to check my figures you may have to search for Imp FF on these forums and read the Weapon Expertise threads.
Last edited by Krollin : 10/18/07 at 10:11 AM.
Reason: Be accurate young man or go west via the exit!
But if you take the numbers of the first page for example, saying swords is 5% more dps then daggers it equals to 1050 dps for a swordrogue if the daggers holds 1000 dps. So in reality the differents is not much.
In the span of 2 seconds, yes. It's fairly mild looking, but still 5%. Over the course of a 10+ minute fight (read as: any raid boss these days) it becomes a more respectable number when weighed against the fact that our job, as a class, is to eek the most possible damage out of a timeframe that we can.
5% more damage is 5% more damage any way you slice it. I guess I'm just of the mind that given the option, why would you purposefully do 5% less damage (all things being equal of course, and pretending you have access to weapon drops that make different builds possible)?
10/17/07, 4:22 AM
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