Trying to Figure out a weapon combo here. I heard this Fist/sword doing more or equal dps. Should I aim for talon of azshara or talon from alar. I have current s2 swords. just looking for some input here.
Take whichever drops first. Fist/sword does only marginally less DPS than sword/sword, so while in a vacuum Talon of Azshara is perhaps slightly more damage, in practice they are so close that there's no real reason to choose one over the other.
2nd assumption is, non-stop white dps. While this assumption holds true for some boss-fights, clearly it does not hold true for the others. As (assasination) shadowstep builds rely heavily on yellow damage (mainly the hemorrhage damage), any interruption in the white DPS (i.e. running around, changing targets) will shift the scales to the (assasination) shadowstep builds due to the energy regeneration in the absence of white DPS.
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Actually, I think several people have already mentioned that 0/20/41 Shadowstep is likely to do more white DPS, not less, than Combat Swords (or at least be comparable). The reason is that most talents at the bottom of the combat tree (ie, beyond DW spec) increase yellow DPS only (Adrenaline Rush, Surprise Attacks, Combat Potency, Aggression) whereas talents in the bottom of the Subtlety tree benefit white attacks as well as yellow attacks (Serrated Blades, Deadliness, Sinister Calling). For my own gear in the DPS spreadsheet, my white DPS increases from 477 to 507 when I use a Shadowstep build, but my overall DPS goes down due to lost yellow DPS.
In other words, while this may be an assumption that the spreadsheet makes, it is an assumption that favors Shadowstep, not Combat.
Actually, I think several people have already mentioned that 0/20/41 Shadowstep is likely to do more white DPS, not less, than Combat Swords (or at least be comparable). The reason is that most talents at the bottom of the combat tree (ie, beyond DW spec) increase yellow DPS only (Adrenaline Rush, Surprise Attacks, Combat Potency, Aggression) whereas talents in the bottom of the Subtlety tree benefit white attacks as well as yellow attacks (Serrated Blades, Deadliness, Sinister Calling). For my own gear in the DPS spreadsheet, my white DPS increases from 477 to 507 when I use a Shadowstep build, but my overall DPS goes down due to lost yellow DPS.
In other words, while this may be an assumption that the spreadsheet makes, it is an assumption that favors Shadowstep, not Combat.
If you read carefully you can see that I have stated "assassination" in parenthesis. Thus I have mentioned assassination-shadowstep builds. In addition to that, even some (a significant chunk in fact) of the yellow damage of the combat builds comes from non-stop white dps (i.e. combat potency). So, there is nothing wrong with my statement.
You can see the wws values for the builds here. Assassination SS gets 36% of damage from yellow damage while combat build gets 26%. This is from a non-stop white dps fight. So, combat build's yellow DPS is increased by combat potency to the maximum. However, it still lags the SS yellow dps by 10%.
If you read carefully you can see that I have stated "assassination" in parenthesis. Thus I have mentioned assassination-shadowstep builds. In addition to that, even some (a significant chunk in fact) of the yellow damage of the combat builds comes from non-stop white dps (i.e. combat potency). So, there is nothing wrong with my statement.
Good point; I did miss that.
EDIT: However, after rereading more closely, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "energy regeneration in the absence of white DPS." Time off-target energy regen is the same for both specs, but in practice does this really matter? After a few seconds off target your energy caps out and regen means nothing. The second you are back on target white DPS turns back on and you return to on-target regen models. So unless you are talking about breaks of between zero and eight (or so) seconds, there isn't really any difference. Above eight or so seconds you are capped out on energy anyway when you return to combat.
Sure, some fights have small gaps like this (Lurker comes to mind), but in a lot of others the gaps are well above eight seconds (Morogrim, for example, or High King, or Gruul). (I can't speak for post T5 content, as we're still in SSC.)
Also, in the last post you gave percentages... those are percentages of overall personal DPS for two separate rogues. You said (if I interpret you correctly) that the Combat builds SS damage lags the Assassination builds Hemo damage by a significant amount, even on a sustained fight. (You said 10%, as per the difference between 26% and 36% of overall damage, but what that really means is a (0.36-0.26)/(0.26) = 38% increase in Yellow damage for Hemo.) That is true if and only if the rogues are doing the same overall DPS, which isn't usually the case. Usually, the combat rogue is well ahead overall, so even though his Yellow may be less percentagewise, it may be fairly close in absolute terms.
Now on the WWS in question, Nessala did ~84k Sinister Strike damage and Hafoc did ~106k Hemo damage. That's about a 26% difference. However, Nessala also had a low SS crit rate (22% vs. his 27% on Melee), while Hafoc had a very high Hemo crit rate (41% vs. his 35% on Melee). So a big chunk of that gap might just be RNG fickleness.
EDIT: However, after rereading more closely, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "energy regeneration in the absence of white DPS." Time off-target energy regen is the same for both specs, but in practice does this really matter? After a few seconds off target your energy caps out and regen means nothing. The second you are back on target white DPS turns back on and you return to on-target regen models. So unless you are talking about breaks of between zero and eight (or so) seconds, there isn't really any difference. Above eight or so seconds you are capped out on energy anyway when you return to combat.
Sure, some fights have small gaps like this (Lurker comes to mind), but in a lot of others the gaps are well above eight seconds (Morogrim, for example, or High King, or Gruul). (I can't speak for post T5 content, as we're still in SSC.)
Whether does it cap or not does not really matter for the topic under the discussion because the yellow dps unload of the assassination-SS build will always be higher. So, even in the capped out case, assasionation-SS build will have the advantage. Al'ar, Leotherias are the other examples of these kind of fights.
Originally Posted by Left
Also, in the last post you gave percentages... those are percentages of overall personal DPS for two separate rogues. You said (if I interpret you correctly) that the Combat builds SS damage lags the Assassination builds Hemo damage by a significant amount, even on a sustained fight. (You said 10%, as per the difference between 26% and 36% of overall damage, but what that really means is a (0.36-0.26)/(0.26) = 38% increase in Yellow damage for Hemo.) That is true if and only if the rogues are doing the same overall DPS, which isn't usually the case. Usually, the combat rogue is well ahead overall, so even though his Yellow may be less percentagewise, it may be fairly close in absolute terms.
Now on the WWS in question, Nessala did ~84k Sinister Strike damage and Hafoc did ~106k Hemo damage. That's about a 26% difference. However, Nessala also had a low SS crit rate (22% vs. his 27% on Melee), while Hafoc had a very high Hemo crit rate (41% vs. his 35% on Melee). So a big chunk of that gap might just be RNG fickleness.
In that wws, you need to compare the dps of Levee and Hafoc (these rogues are the benchmarks). Even though Levee had higher percent of crits (46%), Hapoc wins out by 106k to 93k. Also, note that we usually expect SS rogues to do more crits due to the Sinister Calling talent.
With the loss of combat potency and surprise attacks you're pretty hard hit but can seal fate make up for it by itself? What if one would stack crit gear + 2 t5, tsunami trinket and ashtongue trinket. That'd give some pretty hefty bonuses for critting. Along with druid buff I'd think one could get around 45% crit chance.
The reason I'm not just refering to spreadsheet is that it simply doesn't take all this into account in regards to the extra bonus points generated. It simply opts to go a 2snd/5r cycle all the time instead of going 4-5snd/4-5r/4-5evi cycle. Of course you can only find out one way by testing it but I'm reluctant to regem/reenchant my gear for some weird notion that might be completely falsified.
I guess I'd have to calculate how much extra energy that is generated by combat potency and measure it up against the extra damage from an eviscerate in each cycle to get some clue of how it works. Can someone provide the energy gain per 10 seconds for combat potency?
First wanted to say hello, I've been lurking for awhile, but with all the discussion on ShS in raiding I wanted to bounce a few ideas off and see what you thought.
First my normal spec is 20/41/0, but with recent changes to ShS wanted to see how it would do. Using the rogue spreadsheet on this site I theorycrafted the following build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
While the spreadsheet does show a loss in DPS with my current gear (T4 stuff mostly with engineering goggles and Vengeful Chest piece gemmed and enchanted for pve). Its more like a 3-4% loss (buffed).
However usually the ShS builds mentioned are 20/0/41 or a 0/20/41 or something similar.
So I'm curious if there is anything I'm missing here since, spreadsheet wise, it seems to to perform better.
I have no WWS reports yet, I'm going to try and collect a few and see how it performs, my hope is that in more stationery fights it will lose out, but perform adequately and on more mobile fights it will outperform combat.
Any thoughts? Anything I'm missing that I should try differently, or am I possibly miss reading the spreadsheet?
With the loss of combat potency and surprise attacks you're pretty hard hit but can seal fate make up for it by itself? What if one would stack crit gear + 2 t5, tsunami trinket and ashtongue trinket. That'd give some pretty hefty bonuses for critting. Along with druid buff I'd think one could get around 45% crit chance.
The reason I'm not just refering to spreadsheet is that it simply doesn't take all this into account in regards to the extra bonus points generated. It simply opts to go a 2snd/5r cycle all the time instead of going 4-5snd/4-5r/4-5evi cycle. Of course you can only find out one way by testing it but I'm reluctant to regem/reenchant my gear for some weird notion that might be completely falsified.
I guess I'd have to calculate how much extra energy that is generated by combat potency and measure it up against the extra damage from an eviscerate in each cycle to get some clue of how it works. Can someone provide the energy gain per 10 seconds for combat potency?
Say haste gets your offhand speed to 1.00 then cp is 3 energy per second provided you have decent amounts of hit rating.
Cosain - WWS
in 5 minutes and 42 seconds I got 975 energy back from cp. I have some pretty abysmal hit rating and it still came out to 2.87 energy per second returned.
First wanted to say hello, I've been lurking for awhile, but with all the discussion on ShS in raiding I wanted to bounce a few ideas off and see what you thought.
First my normal spec is 20/41/0, but with recent changes to ShS wanted to see how it would do. Using the rogue spreadsheet on this site I theorycrafted the following build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
While the spreadsheet does show a loss in DPS with my current gear (T4 stuff mostly with engineering goggles and Vengeful Chest piece gemmed and enchanted for pve). Its more like a 3-4% loss (buffed).
However usually the ShS builds mentioned are 20/0/41 or a 0/20/41 or something similar.
So I'm curious if there is anything I'm missing here since, spreadsheet wise, it seems to to perform better.
I have no WWS reports yet, I'm going to try and collect a few and see how it performs, my hope is that in more stationery fights it will lose out, but perform adequately and on more mobile fights it will outperform combat.
Any thoughts? Anything I'm missing that I should try differently, or am I possibly miss reading the spreadsheet?
Thanks
You are right, 11/9/41 performs better than both 20/0/41 and 0/20/41 on a sustained dps fight.
First wanted to say hello, I've been lurking for awhile, but with all the discussion on ShS in raiding I wanted to bounce a few ideas off and see what you thought.
First my normal spec is 20/41/0, but with recent changes to ShS wanted to see how it would do. Using the rogue spreadsheet on this site I theorycrafted the following build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
While the spreadsheet does show a loss in DPS with my current gear (T4 stuff mostly with engineering goggles and Vengeful Chest piece gemmed and enchanted for pve). Its more like a 3-4% loss (buffed).
However usually the ShS builds mentioned are 20/0/41 or a 0/20/41 or something similar.
So I'm curious if there is anything I'm missing here since, spreadsheet wise, it seems to to perform better.
I have no WWS reports yet, I'm going to try and collect a few and see how it performs, my hope is that in more stationery fights it will lose out, but perform adequately and on more mobile fights it will outperform combat.
Any thoughts? Anything I'm missing that I should try differently, or am I possibly miss reading the spreadsheet?
Thanks
11/9/41 has been thrown around for quite a while as a possible build. It is marginally better than 20/0/41 or 0/20/41, but it is still not that great.
For everyone playing with ShS on the spreadsheets: remember that Hemo builds usually take your raid DPS contribution from Hemo into account. Since it does that and ShS still comes in a minimum of 3-4% behind (usually much more at the high end), you can count on personal DPS from a ShS build to be quite a bit lower than the 3-4% shown (except on high mobility fights, which are a special case).
11/9/41 has been thrown around for quite a while as a possible build. It is marginally better than 20/0/41 or 0/20/41, but it is still not that great.
For everyone playing with ShS on the spreadsheets: remember that Hemo builds usually take your raid DPS contribution from Hemo into account. Since it does that and ShS still comes in a minimum of 3-4% behind (usually much more at the high end), you can count on personal DPS from a ShS build to be quite a bit lower than the 3-4% shown (except on high mobility fights, which are a special case).
Thanks for the input. Can I ask what are considered highly mobile fights? My guild is currently just starting its progression into SSC. I see Gruul as being a bit mobile due to the throws and shatters. Mags depends on whether your on cube duty (which usually I am) and then I've seen hydross and Lurker, and I know with Lurkers whirl the ability to ShS back would (seem) useful, are these considerided mobile fights by most of you or no?
Also if the ShS build is simply not going to be viable for raiding without a signifcant personal DPS and raid DPS loss is the old hybrid build with hemo considered worthwhile anymore? The build was something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft or something similar. Is it worth bringing along at least one rogue with a similar build to raids like it is a survival hunter? The spreadsheet seems to suggest yes...
Also one last thing I did notice is that I downloaded two armory's to the spreadsheet, one was mine and was another rogue with BT level gear. I must admit his drop in damage was quite a bit more than mine, so it looks like the ShS build does not scale well at all.
Thanks for the input. Can I ask what are considered highly mobile fights? My guild is currently just starting its progression into SSC. I see Gruul as being a bit mobile due to the throws and shatters. Mags depends on whether your on cube duty (which usually I am) and then I've seen hydross and Lurker, and I know with Lurkers whirl the ability to ShS back would (seem) useful, are these considerided mobile fights by most of you or no?
Also if the ShS build is simply not going to be viable for raiding without a signifcant personal DPS and raid DPS loss is the old hybrid build with hemo considered worthwhile anymore? The build was something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft or something similar. Is it worth bringing along at least one rogue with a similar build to raids like it is a survival hunter? The spreadsheet seems to suggest yes...
Also one last thing I did notice is that I downloaded two armory's to the spreadsheet, one was mine and was another rogue with BT level gear. I must admit his drop in damage was quite a bit more than mine, so it looks like the ShS build does not scale well at all.
From fights I have seen, I would consider Maulgar, Gruul, Hex Lord, and Morogrim "highly mobile". (By this I mean that there are significant periods of time-off-target that could be considerably reduced by Shadowstep.) Lurker's whirl is short enough range that you can get right back in without hardly losing DPS time; ShS doesn't help with time on target there.
Other fights (which I have not seen) which I might consider highly mobile include Kael, possibly Vashj, Rage Winterchill (due to death and decay), and Archimonde (due to doomfire). Having not seen those fights, it's hard to say.
And yes, Hemo-Swords or Hemo-Deadliness hybrids are still considered raid viable for at least 1 rogue per raid, but rarely more than 2. (Wowhead is broken atm, so I can't view or respond to the exact spec you posted.) Read through the past ten pages of this thread or so.
I would consider Maulgar, Gruul, Hex Lord, and Morogrim "highly mobile". (By this I mean that there are significant periods of time-off-target that could be considerably reduced by Shadowstep.) Lurker's whirl is short enough range that you can get right back in without hardly losing DPS time; ShS doesn't help with time on target there.
There is more time spent not DPSing because Maulgar is whirlwinding than is used running from target to target. Gruul, yes, though getting back into melee extremely might get you splattered by a Hurtful Strike. Hex Lord has very little time off target. Morogim is a benchmark for melee DPS as they just stand there. The ONLY interruption is the possibility of getting graved.
Other fights (which I have not seen) which I might consider highly mobile include Kael, possibly Vashj, Rage Winterchill (due to death and decay), and Archimonde (due to doomfire). Having not seen those fights, it's hard to say.
Kael is not particulary mobile. Thaladred and the Astromancer are dangerous for melee, period. Our method, at least, is for melee to kill the engineer and then get Kael, who they do not move from after that. Vashj isn't mobile either, unless you're not helping kill the nagas spawning. Rage Winterchill CAN be mobile, but usually isn't. Archimonde CAN be mobile, but melee DPS usually is the bulk of the DPS of that fight.
There is more time spent not DPSing because Maulgar is whirlwinding than is used running from target to target. Gruul, yes, though getting back into melee extremely might get you splattered by a Hurtful Strike. Hex Lord has very little time off target. Morogim is a benchmark for melee DPS as they just stand there. The ONLY interruption is the possibility of getting graved.
Maulgar whirlwinding is what keeps people out, yes, but I can see where ShS would help (marginally) to get you back in faster, especially if he gets repositioned following a charge.
For Gruul, yeah, the only thing you need to watch is to not get splattered by a hurtful. Otherwise, ShS can be a boost.
Hex Lord, for us, has involved him getting the stupid Paladin drain and the melee backing out of the consecrate... thus ShS could be (again marginally) useful.
Morogrim is a benchmark... unless you get graved. If you get graved, you waste a ton of time getting back on target. I got graved four times our last kill, so with the wasted time running I could see where ShS could help time-on-target significantly. However, it's a grab bag whether you get graved or not. In the best case, you don't get graved at all and get 100% time-on-target. In the worst case, you are constantly bandaging and running back.
Originally Posted by Balkoth
Kael is not particulary mobile. Thaladred and the Astromancer are dangerous for melee, period. Our method, at least, is for melee to kill the engineer and then get Kael, who they do not move from after that. Vashj isn't mobile either, unless you're not helping kill the nagas spawning. Rage Winterchill CAN be mobile, but usually isn't. Archimonde CAN be mobile, but melee DPS usually is the bulk of the DPS of that fight.
I was going off someone else's earlier post that Kael was mobile, but if I understand correctly the strats for Kael vary widely from guild to guild. Like I said, I haven't seen these fights, so I defer to your judgment.
The overall point was "yes there are fights where ShS can (though not necessarily will) significantly boost time-on-target." The other point was "even so, it's generally not worth it and/or ShS won't help enough to overcome the spec's other deficiencies."
In that wws, you need to compare the dps of Levee and Hafoc (these rogues are the benchmarks). Even though Levee had higher percent of crits (46%), Hapoc wins out by 106k to 93k. Also, note that we usually expect SS rogues to do more crits due to the Sinister Calling talent.
Actually the benchmarks would be Me (Nessala), Apocc (also Combat) and Hafoc, Levee is at a lower gear level then the rest of us (I didn't even get my 4 piece until later that night, whereas both Hafoc and Apocc had 4 piece T6). Something else to think about that will throw a wrench in things, and is why comparing across rogues for breakdowns isn't valid, I stack -armor, no one else does. Hafoc has the shoulders, gloves and bow, I had the gloves, bow, ring, executioner, warp-spring and madness... so yeah, however, Hafoc has Serrated Blades. Basically when similarly spec'ed Hafoc and I are very close and Apocc lags behind a little, so if anything in terms of maxing out a spec, compare Hafoc and I.
The more effective thing to do would be to actually fill out your profile with an Armory link so that we can just click your character's name and see your gear/spec. That would've saved two posts!
And in general, Ad Rush just gives you enough energy to do an extra 5pt eviscerate in your cycle - so for 1 period of time, you go Xs/5r/5e, then back to your normal Xs/5r cycle. Answers will change for combat daggers and what cycle you're running there - I don't have enough experience to be helpful in that regard.
And in general, Ad Rush just gives you enough energy to do an extra 5pt eviscerate in your cycle - so for 1 period of time, you go Xs/5r/5e, then back to your normal Xs/5r cycle. Answers will change for combat daggers and what cycle you're running there - I don't have enough experience to be helpful in that regard.
While true for higher gear levels, that doesn't hold true at all gear levels, don't forget, AR is only 150 Energy, 5 CPs with Sinister Strike would take 200, you have to have some extra energy or get Combat Potency Procs to get the full 5 pointer, and that is dependent on hit rating, off-hand speed, and luck.
That's a good point - though in general I believe most people combine it with Blade Flurry, so the extra haste generally gets you the extra CPot procs you need.
01/16/08, 9:34 AM
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