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Old 01/16/08, 7:30 PM   #1001
Lastembrace
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Nordrassil (EU)
OK - managed to finally do some testing with Mana Tap/Arcane Torrent.

Hyjal first tonight as we had to attune a trial for BT, and we decided to clear the whole place. Rage Winterchill, Kaz'rogal and Archimonde are all succeptible to Mana tap. I had to sit out for Anetheron, and on Azgalor we have our melee only dpsing the doomguards that spawn so I couldn't test it on him but as both of these bosses have mana/cast spells it would not surprise me in the slightest if they are succeptible to Mana Tap too. So, Hyjal gets the thumbs up.

We also cleared the first 3 bosses of BT, Naj'entus and Supremus both have no mana and thus Mana Tap does not work on those and once again I had to sit out for Akama so I unfortunately couldn't test that either - willl have to do some more testing tomorrow and see if it's useful at all in there.

However, I tried a few macro's I'd made to see if I could have a single button I could mash for SS and Mana tap, the only one that worked to any extent was a /castrandom macro and even then, with AR up I found it would "randomly" try and trigger mana tap several times in a row leading to me actually capping energy, which obviously isn't good and kind of counters the point in what I'm trying to do.

So after a while I abandoned the use of macro's and tried to just use it normally, the problem though is I was so not used to it I often forgot about the whole thing. I've played this rogue for so long now that actually playing has become some what second nature, so it's going to take some adjusting to use it effectively that's for sure. When I did remember though it definitely had its uses, particularly on Archimonde as there is always a lot of time off target due to the airbursts/fears and twice or so I was able to stop snd dropping for a second or two because of it.

My initial "conclusion" then is that using it in the way I described in my first post is definitely plausible though obviously requires further testing as well as compiling a list of bosses it works on. Not only that but a lot of readjusting is necessary, at least for me, in order to just not forget about it... An SS/Mana Tap macro that worked without the problem I described earlier would definitely help some but as both abilities trigger the GCD I'm not sure it's possible.

Last thing, the resist's seemed to be about what we expected I guess. During the entire night I only had two resisted Mana Taps out of maybe 18-20 in total. Obviously it's a tiny sample size but this would seem in line with the 17% arcane resistance bosses have by default and was posted earlier.

So all in all, needs more testing but looks some what promising.

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Old 01/16/08, 7:40 PM   #1002
Arindelest
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Garona
Akama is very likely to be useful for MT/AT since you're essentially killing "trash" with mana for most of the fight and only actually attacking the boss for ~< 1 minute; it's relatively unimportant if you were able to MT the boss, but you could MT the adds in the time you're killing them and unleash on the boss.

From what you're saying it's possible all bosses with mana are susceptible to MT.

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Old 01/16/08, 9:04 PM   #1003
robfang
Von Kaiser
 
robfang's Avatar
 
Orc Rogue
 
The Venture Co (EU)
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Actually the benchmarks would be Me (Nessala), Apocc (also Combat) and Hafoc, Levee is at a lower gear level then the rest of us (I didn't even get my 4 piece until later that night, whereas both Hafoc and Apocc had 4 piece T6). Something else to think about that will throw a wrench in things, and is why comparing across rogues for breakdowns isn't valid, I stack -armor, no one else does. Hafoc has the shoulders, gloves and bow, I had the gloves, bow, ring, executioner, warp-spring and madness... so yeah, however, Hafoc has Serrated Blades. Basically when similarly spec'ed Hafoc and I are very close and Apocc lags behind a little, so if anything in terms of maxing out a spec, compare Hafoc and I.
Yeah, I noticed it later, when I checked the armories. Sorry for the misinformation.

Yet, my point still holds true with regards to the yellow DPS of combat builds and 20/0/41 shadowstep builds. If you check out the damage dealt by Nessala and Hafoc throughout the full raid (which should give the best overall statistic), you can see that Nessala dealt 1878 k damage by using sinister strikes while Hafoc dealt 2225 k damage by using hemorrhage.

Edit: P.S. I have tried setup on the Hex Lord today. It works like wonders. Cloak of Shadows while soul drain provides you with enough combo points to get out 2 or 3 5cp finishers if you are lucky. I just wanted to share it

Last edited by robfang : 01/16/08 at 9:32 PM.

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Old 01/16/08, 9:46 PM   #1004
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
PSGarak's Avatar
 
Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
If you know the name of a mob with mana lying around somewhere you can write a macro to manatap that mob without changing your current dps target. Focus is the easiest way to do it, although if you're looking at a generic mob that gets killed and replaced frequently you can probably still do it by name. I would recomend not wiring it to your autoattack, for the reason you mentioned.

AR gives a net of five combo points if the extra finisher you gain out of it procs ruthlessness. It's more accurate to say it gives 4.6 combo points. Obviously it only gives that benefit after the finisher, but in realistic usage you can weave the extra eviscerate anywhere in your cycle you want. If you start at 2-3 points with rupture and S&D up, AR and evisc at five and proc ruthlessness, you've added four sin strikes and a 5-point evis without disrupting any cycle. You can play it conservatively and pop a 4-point evis, and stand to gain the occasional extra combo point in your cycle to make up for a previous unproc or lack of combat potency.


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Old 01/17/08, 3:59 AM   #1005
Benhoof
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Nefarian (EU)
Originally Posted by Left View Post
For Gruul, yeah, the only thing you need to watch is to not get splattered by a hurtful. Otherwise, ShS can be a boost.
Just a question from an Twink-Rogue: "Wouldn't Cheat Death prevent this?"

I mean, even if you shadowstep right after shatter and get hit by one hurtfull strike, you would completely resist the damage.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Old 01/17/08, 4:15 AM   #1006
Hagareno
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Dragonmaw (EU)
Originally Posted by Benhoof View Post
Just a question from an Twink-Rogue: "Wouldn't Cheat Death prevent this?"

I mean, even if you shadowstep right after shatter and get hit by one hurtfull strike, you would completely resist the damage.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
If you would go to 0 health from the hurtful you will absorb it I belive, just like it says on the tooltip.

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Old 01/17/08, 4:48 AM   #1007
Neshalin
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Moonglade (EU)
If you're going to rely on Cheat Death to soak a Hurtful Strike, make sure it isn't still on cooldown! Beyond that it should work fine. Other fights where Shadowstep / Cheat Death shine are Supremus (staying on target in kite phase, without fear of taking random swings when he changes targets) and Archimonde. Shadowstepping directly out of an Air Burst will save you a lot of time. Archimonde may well be the only fight where this build can compete.

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Old 01/17/08, 4:53 AM   #1008
Hagareno
Glass Joe
 
Hagareno's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Dragonmaw (EU)
For Gruul you should be safe if you only use it after Shatter as the Shatter cooldown is over a minute, you can use cloak every time too.

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Old 01/17/08, 12:46 PM   #1009
Casterbridge
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Khaz Modan
Quick question in the front page it has the hemo/swords build as being 5% lower than the sword/sword build, but thats personal dps only. Does the debuff value provided by hemo to the raid more than make up for the 5% loss, or is it about even or worse?

Just curious as my guild is going to try and progress further into SSC tonight and I know I'm going to have to switch out of my ShS build in order to contribute properly, just trying to figure out if I should go back to my regular (combat) build or give the hemo build a try. I would be the only rogue with hemo.

Thanks.

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Old 01/17/08, 1:01 PM   #1010
Latito
Don Flamenco
 
Latito's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by smallw View Post
hello everyone,
what r u doing in wow now?we have nothing to do in wow now ,i just rent my acct to Wow farm|wowfarm|rentalaccount|rental account|rental accounts|rentalaccounts|wow powerleveling to make some income for me .
i just joined a av bg,but most of the players were afkers.


how about u guys?write sth u do at wow now plz.
Interesting...
http://elitistjerks.com/search.php?searchid=829195


Casterbridge - At your level of progression, a single Hemo rogue will likely be about equal with combat sword rogues in terms of raid contribution to dps. At a T4 level, Hemo will be slightly more than combat swords (raid dps, not personal). At a T6 level, Combat Swords for all the rogues is generally best. That is after factoring in the Hemo debuff. The math/proof/etc is scattered throughout this thread and some of the other Rogue ones.

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Old 01/17/08, 3:04 PM   #1011
Tayron
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Un'Goro (EU)
Hi,
is cheap shot a hitting attack than can apply poisons? I just managed to cheap shot a mob, and my first attacked missed, still i did instant poison damage on the mob. As I suppose misses won't apply poison, my cheap shot must have applied.
Is that correct, incorrect? Or hasn't anyone ever noticed?

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Old 01/17/08, 3:17 PM   #1012
Cos-
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Silver Hand
Originally Posted by Tayron View Post
Hi,
is cheap shot a hitting attack than can apply poisons? I just managed to cheap shot a mob, and my first attacked missed, still i did instant poison damage on the mob. As I suppose misses won't apply poison, my cheap shot must have applied.
Is that correct, incorrect? Or hasn't anyone ever noticed?
Well misses shouldn't apply poison. CShot doesn't do yellow damage and it can miss soooo it sounds like it can hit. If it can hit then I wouldn't be surprised it can proc a poison. I'm pretty sure sap used to proc mh poison. I know sap can set off the WSC proc so once again, CS proccing instant poison sounds reasonable.

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Old 01/17/08, 3:44 PM   #1013
Ozzmar
Don Flamenco
 
Ozzmar's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Eldre'Thalas
A good way to test this would be to just start a duel, and use this macro on the opponent a few dozen times:

/cast Cheap Shot
/stopattack

That -should- only Cheap Shot the opponent and immediately stop your auto attack. If you see a poison proc, then you have your answer.

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Old 01/17/08, 7:11 PM   #1014
Nihthraefn
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Tichondrius
Question - the first page suggested combo cycles are back up to 4 or 5s/5r from 3 or 4s/5r.. is that due to the hit cap/expertise change, or was there a nerf to combat potency that I missed? I read back a number of pages and didn't find any information.

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Old 01/17/08, 7:13 PM   #1015
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
Shaker's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Elune
It's answered only a few pages back, but the gist of it is that due to the way that SS scales compared to rupture, you end up with more damage by spending all your energy on SS, and less (0 in 5s/5r) on finishers.

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Old 01/17/08, 7:17 PM   #1016
Nihthraefn
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Tichondrius
Hmm I missed it in all the shadowstep discussion. Thank you, I'll read back again and find it.

Edit: Good to know that my eyes didn't fail me, I'll read the gear thread posts. Thanks again

Last edited by Nihthraefn : 01/17/08 at 7:40 PM.

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Old 01/17/08, 7:18 PM   #1017
Grunge
Don Flamenco
 
Grunge's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Kor'gall (EU)
Originally Posted by Tayron View Post
Hi,
is cheap shot a hitting attack than can apply poisons? I just managed to cheap shot a mob, and my first attacked missed, still i did instant poison damage on the mob. As I suppose misses won't apply poison, my cheap shot must have applied.
Is that correct, incorrect? Or hasn't anyone ever noticed?
I've noticed this often as well in duels where Sap->Cheap Shot->Run away to restealth and open with 2 extra CP can often not work out since Wound Poison presumably procing off Cheap Shot.
However I'm not 100% sure that it was Cheap Shot that proced the poison, but I'm quite sure that it was Wound that removed Sap.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

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Old 01/17/08, 7:24 PM   #1018
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
Shaker's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Nihthraefn View Post
Hmm I missed it in all the shadowstep discussion. Thank you, I'll read back again and find it.
My apologies, the discussion was in the gear sheet thread - I've found one post I made about it there, Aldriana has a more detailed post right below it. My information is more reporting, she's the one who has done more of the math to prove it.

http://elitistjerks.com/593914-post1774.html

in EJBSG 12

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

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Old 01/17/08, 11:07 PM   #1019
Latito
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Rogue
 
Lightbringer
Not disputing the truth of what Shaker and Aldrianna posted, however at Nihthraefn's gear level, it could well be lack of hit causing 3s/5r to become unsustainable, or lack of AP which is all rupture really scales with. I find it much less likely the cycle change is due to higher gear scaling with ~26% crit and 1770 AP. Its actually pretty odd that you would be suggested a 5s/5r cycle.. given you have a reasonable hit rating and DST. No static haste, 2pc T6 and a 1.5 spd OH don't help.. but still. Either way - both cycles are likely extremely close.

Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

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Old 01/17/08, 11:44 PM   #1020
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Reading his post, I don't think he was actually asking a question specifically about his own gear, but about the information in the first post where it's asserted that 4s5r and 5s5r are probably the best options for non-2/5 T4 rogues. I'm not entirely sure why it recommended otherwise before, but I believe it to be correct now; by the Rogue Gear sheet, the theoretically minimal cycle for all but the highest hit/haste rogues is 3.X/5r, meaning 3s5r is not generally sustainable. Hence, most rogues are going to have 4s5r as their most compressed cycle, and 5s5r and their uncompressed cycle for the high crit/AP/ArPen cycle. There are a few rogues that can squeeze into 3s5r, although it seems like a risky cycle to me - a string of unluckly procs could easily cause and SnD gap. Thing is, this isn't a new thing; that's been true for as long as the Rogue Gear sheet has existed. So my best guess as to what happened is as follows: previously, the situation where 5s5r becomes optimal was not commonly known, and very few rogues were there. Hence, the most common cycles were 4s5r (for most people) and 3s5r (for those few with high hit/haste). Now, since more rogues are reaching the gear level where 5s5r takes over - and more people are aware that that's a viable option - it has been correctly marked as the 2nd most common cycle.

...or maybe it was just a mistake before. Regardless, what it says now is correct, and hasn't really changed in months.

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Old 01/17/08, 11:56 PM   #1021
KasumiRevy
Von Kaiser
 
KasumiRevy's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Feathermoon
Glass Joe

Dhargon
Human Rogue

Khaz Modan

Quick question in the front page it has the hemo/swords build as being 5% lower than the sword/sword build, but thats personal dps only. Does the debuff value provided by hemo to the raid more than make up for the 5% loss, or is it about even or worse?

Just curious as my guild is going to try and progress further into SSC tonight and I know I'm going to have to switch out of my ShS build in order to contribute properly, just trying to figure out if I should go back to my regular (combat) build or give the hemo build a try. I would be the only rogue with hemo.

Thanks.
e
It depends on the gear level of the rogues in question, but generally until HJ/BT+, you're total raid contribution is greater the combat swords, as hybrid pve hemo.

I can show you wws of ssc if you like, i'm actually a little bit above, or below the other sword rogue, (varies from day to day) and i'm MACES/HEMO.

SO I think in ssc, would work well. In places like BT, i'd be more likely to point you back to combat swords.

Last edited by KasumiRevy : 01/18/08 at 12:17 AM. Reason: in between boss attempts in ssc atm, sorry for misspels/typos

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Old 01/18/08, 12:02 AM   #1022
KasumiRevy
Von Kaiser
 
KasumiRevy's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Feathermoon
Wow Web Stats

tuesday ssc stats, keep in mind , this is post the hemo nerf.

Last edited by KasumiRevy : 01/18/08 at 12:11 AM. Reason: in between boss attempts in ssc atm

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Old 01/18/08, 12:06 AM   #1023
Lastembrace
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Nordrassil (EU)
2nd round of Mana Tap/Arcane Torrent testing is in and the results are as follows (compiled with my other post from last night):

Mana tap works on:

Mount Hyjal

Rage Winterchill
Kaz'Rogal
Archimonde

Black Temple

Teron Gorefiend
Mother Shahraz
Illidari Council (Gathios)

Mana Tap does not work on:

Black Temple

Naj'entus
Supremus
Gurtogg Bloodboil
Reliquary of Souls (though I only tested one phase, will have to check for sure)
Illidan

Still unconfirmed:

Akama (presumed yes)
Anetheron (presumed yes, almost 100%)
Azgalor (presumed yes, almost 100%)

So, at least in regards to T6 content, Mana Tap and thus Arcane Torrent works on over 50% of the encounters assuming the as of yet untested bosses turn out as expected. I guess this means that it's use is some what viable and should be looked into. Now if only I could get used to using the damn thing...

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Old 01/18/08, 12:15 AM   #1024
weka
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Archimonde
Would Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft be a viable raiding spec?

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Old 01/18/08, 12:19 AM   #1025
KasumiRevy
Von Kaiser
 
KasumiRevy's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Feathermoon
Originally Posted by weka View Post
Would Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft be a viable raiding spec?
No, relentless strikes, is pretty much a must have.

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