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Old 12/07/07, 5:05 PM   #601
Idk
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Dreadmaul
I like the idea, unfortunately my knowledge of statistics simply isn't what it used to be.

Perhaps there would be value in simulating just the difficult-to-predict mechanics (like mutilate) to try to devise formulas to plug back into the spreadsheet?

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Old 12/07/07, 5:56 PM   #602
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Even Mutilate I think is better done statistically than via simulation. I've actually worked out about 75% of the behavior by hand before; it's just never been worth taking the time to include that information in a spreadsheet.

In terms of writing a computer program to do this statistically: I'd be willing to write the actual computation package for it myself, but there's a lot of code around that that would need to be written as well. I mean, here's an overview of what would be involved in the ideal rogue calculator:

1) UI for entering gear and talents. Ideally this would also include an Armory fetch so you can point it at your Armory Profile and it automatically grabs your gear and spec. Would also have a full talent calculator page where you can adjust your spec, and a way of changing out gear (probably something akin to the old CTProfiles).

2) Total up all stats, procs, etc. etc. from gear, and pass that information into the damage calculator. Damage calculator chews on it a bit and spits out a damage estimate.

3) For each stat (or maybe each piece of gear, or perhaps both) you rerun the damage calculation for your gear with one additional point in that stat. You use this to score each stat; then, you run these scores against an item database to get a rough score for each piece of gear to build a list of "these pieces of gear are good".

4) Then, for each of those pieces of gear, you run the damage calculator again, to get the exact upgrade from using that piece of gear versus what you're wearing. You then use this to build a list of "if you swap out this one piece of gear, this is the benefit you'd expect to get.

5) You display a list for each slot consisting of "this is how good the item is in an abstract sense, and this is how good it would be for you" - i.e., if you're hit-capped, items with high hit would still show as "good" but not an upgrade for you.

6) Ideally, you also add zone filters and the like to restrict the list of gear it returns, and other such nice features. Note also that socketing adds a lot of complexity to the above.

So, you'll note that this contains a lot of sorting and UI-type work above and beyond the actual calculator; the damage calculator itself, while perhaps the more technically sophisticated piece that requires the most knowledge, is probably less than half of the actual code that needs to be written. The rest doesn't require any particular patience or even that much coding sophistication; just lots and lots of time and effort.

Note also that you can get away without a lot of the fancy UI tweaks and gismos, but you fundamentally do need:

a) A way of entering your gear
b) A way of entering your spec
and
c) A way of displaying a damage number and an upgrades list

even if you do nothing else - and that's still work.

So, yeah. You probably only need one programmer with actual understanding of the mechanics and statistics that go into the DPS calculations - and I'd be willing to be that one - but you'd still need some people to invest the time and effort to write all the rest as well.

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Old 12/07/07, 6:32 PM   #603
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
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Human Rogue
 
Elune
What language do you primarily work in, Ald, and what parameters would you require (obviously a string-like representation of the build, but can you just sum up the gear and provide the numbers?)... I'm basically asking what the "Calculate DPS" function's parameters would be.

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Old 12/07/07, 6:53 PM   #604
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Well, I could probably write this in any reasonable programming language (no Befunge or Intercal, thanks) - but were it up to me, I'd probably use Python. In particular, I've been doing quite a bit of stuff with Django (a python-based web framework) at work lately, so the natural way of approaching this problem - at least for me - would be to set it up as a webapp written in Django with the underlying computation done in Python. I'm open to suggestions, though.

In terms of actual implementation details - we should probably adjourn to private messages (or, if enough people get interested, make a thread for it rather than taking over this one), but, under the above design philosophy of doing this with Django and Python, the natural inputs would probably be dictionaries, one for gear and one for spec. And I suppose at some point you'd also need to track race, buffs/debuffs, opponent armor values, and a few other such things. Some design work would need to go into figuring out what gets tracked where if this were actually going to be made to happen at some point.

Oh, and as long as we're dreaming: in a totally ideal world, the UI and general framework would want to be written in a class-independant way, such that if, sometime down the road, people were feeling ambitious, they could write a damage calculator and a talent page and without changing the underlying framework generate a similar calculator for another class.

In short: there's a fair amount of thought and design that would need to go into this if one wanted to truly do it right. I've thought through some of the issues, but there's plenty I haven't; if this project has the support to actually get off the ground, we'd need to talk over these various issues and work them out before we started coding in a serious way.

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Old 12/07/07, 8:49 PM   #605
XooleX
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Gorefiend
Not sure if this would be helpful to you, but there is a program for rating bearform tanking items with an interface similar to what you described above. (Getting character info from the armory, searching for upgrades, changing items slot by slot, changing gems/enchants, etc) I don't know, maybe you could talk to the creator of that program and try to save some work on the gui.
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Old 12/07/07, 10:07 PM   #606
koaschten
In the rear with the gear!
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Khaz'goroth (EU)
Aldriana drop Tornhoof a pm, he currently is already working on a simulator and gear optimizer using some "genetic algorithm". I have no idea what that is, but it's nerdy enough for me.

[Math models] Request for assistance

How to get an Android Authenticator on your PC. (updated feb'11)

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Old 12/07/07, 10:19 PM   #607
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
I saw his post, but the impression I got on first reading was that his setup wasn't going to handle all the compexity of a rogue cycle. I think for caster rotations it looks like it would work great, but for rogue cycles there's just so much more going on. I guess fundamentally it depends on how "pluggable" his API is.

Of course, the other side of the situation is that I'm somewhat partial to the idea of building out a website around rogue theorycraft, as I can think of a number of other features that would fun to add beyond the gear optimizer. Of course, that's even *more* work, but... hey, I can dream, right?

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Old 12/07/07, 11:30 PM   #608
Aura
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Kil'Jaeden
Just gonna squeeze this in since I didn't find much information about armors etc. Currently I just acquired 4 piece Tier 5 (chance on attack to make next move cost no energy). I was just wondering how much DPS am I getting from the proc, which I might add doesn't proc often (still need to check proc rate though). And how much better is 4 piece T5 from 2 piece T4, cause it seems im getting better rotations with the 2 piece T4. Thanks.

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Old 12/08/07, 12:34 PM   #609
evl
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
<nam>
Stormscale (EU)
On the subject of balancing hit/ap/crit, I'm currently in a mix of T5 + BT/Hyjal non-set epics. I'm currently at 342 hit and 1857 ap unbuffed and I'm still a bit concerned hit is being weighted a bit too heavy.

Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

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Old 12/08/07, 2:04 PM   #610
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Aura View Post
Just gonna squeeze this in since I didn't find much information about armors etc. Currently I just acquired 4 piece Tier 5 (chance on attack to make next move cost no energy). I was just wondering how much DPS am I getting from the proc, which I might add doesn't proc often (still need to check proc rate though). And how much better is 4 piece T5 from 2 piece T4, cause it seems im getting better rotations with the 2 piece T4. Thanks.
"Better" is highly subjective. T5 4pc won't allow you to do 2s/5r the way T4 2pc does, but it is a very potent set bonus nonetheless, completely worth running a longer cycle like 5s/5r.

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Old 12/08/07, 11:27 PM   #611
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
The key realization about 4/5 T5 is that, unlike T4 2/5, you're actually getting *more* energy to spend. 2/5 T4 lets you spend your energy in a more efficient fashion, but you still have the same amount of total energy. 4/5 T5 actually gives you more energy directly, and thus more damage - even if the cycle isn't quite as efficient.

In terms of how much it's actually worth: the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet includes an estimate for it. Typically the answer is "as soon as you can get it, you should use it, and you should keep using it until you have 2/5 T6"

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Old 12/09/07, 8:34 AM   #612
Aura
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Kil'Jaeden
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
The key realization about 4/5 T5 is that, unlike T4 2/5, you're actually getting *more* energy to spend. 2/5 T4 lets you spend your energy in a more efficient fashion, but you still have the same amount of total energy. 4/5 T5 actually gives you more energy directly, and thus more damage - even if the cycle isn't quite as efficient.
Okay, so 2pcs T4 = energy efficiency / 4pcs T5 = more energy. Yeah I did notice some extra 25 energy procs when I do 5 point finishers. By the way, whats the most efficient rotation for 4pcs T5? I'm not sure which should I prioritize, Rupture uptime or SnD uptime? I try to keep SnD up always, but im just afraid of losing those rupture ticks.

Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
In terms of how much it's actually worth: the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet includes an estimate for it. Typically the answer is "as soon as you can get it, you should use it, and you should keep using it until you have 2/5 T6"
If I get 2/5 T6, I guess im gonna use 2/5 T4 with it right?

Last edited by Aura : 12/09/07 at 8:51 AM.

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Old 12/09/07, 11:17 AM   #613
Shadowlin
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Frostmane
Once you break from the 2/5 T4 there's generally no looking back. I'd imagine that by the time you obtain 2/5 T6 you likely will have T5-T6 equivalents that would be pound for pound better than the T4 counterparts plus the bonus. Ultimately, it will depend upon your gear configuration and available options. I'd recommend looking into the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, as it helps to alleviate guess work and is an indispensable tool in choosing a strategy for gear selection.

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Old 12/09/07, 1:59 PM   #614
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Aura View Post
Okay, so 2pcs T4 = energy efficiency / 4pcs T5 = more energy. Yeah I did notice some extra 25 energy procs when I do 5 point finishers. By the way, whats the most efficient rotation for 4pcs T5? I'm not sure which should I prioritize, Rupture uptime or SnD uptime? I try to keep SnD up always, but im just afraid of losing those rupture ticks.
It is basically always more important to keep 100% SnD uptime than anything else. If you worked hard enough coming up with a wierd gear combination you might be able to find one where that isn't true, but it's a good rule of thumb. SnD generates more damage per unit time than Rupture does.

If I get 2/5 T6, I guess im gonna use 2/5 T4 with it right?
Generally not, actually, for two reasons:

1) By the time you're at 2/5 T6, you generally have T5-equivalent gear in almost all slots; and for most people, dropping two pieces of T5 for T4 is a larger damage loss than what you gain from T4 2/5.

2) As your gear level increases into the T6 range, the value of T4 2/5 decreases.

Now, if you're in a situation where, for instance, you've picked up T6 gloves and helm but are still using T4 shoulders since Void Reaver hasn't cooperated, you could imagine using T4 legs for the set bonus until you got a shoulder upgrade. But this is pretty rare, on the whole; as a general rule of thumb, using 2/5 T4 until 4/5 T5 and then abandoning it forever is the way to go.

I'd also encourage you to work through the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet a bit; for whatever gear you're currently wearing, it will tell you the exact upgrade provided by each piece of gear and each set bonus, allowing you to work this out exactly for your particular case.

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Old 12/10/07, 12:36 PM   #615
roq
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Uther
Quick question for you long time Sword players. Recently I switched over from daggers to swords and i am finding one problem. Every once in awhile, without AR, i will Build up 5 Combo points and still have a good amount of time of my rupture still up. Lets say between 4 and 6 seconds. So my question is what do you guys do? Do you keep SSIng until the rupture finishes or do you just auto attack then uses the rupture as soon as it drops? This is a problem you never really have as a dagger rogue.

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